Forum Index » Chaff » Romney/Ryan 2012


Display Avatars Sort By:
jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/16/2012 00:11:41 MST Print View

"German treatment of Jews during WWII has something to do with our support of Isreal

Indeed, but why should innocent Palestinians have to pay the price for German atrocities?

They had nothing to do with the persecution of the Jews."


+1

and maybe I should have said Nazis

Germans are very peaceful now, as are Japanese, as a result of what happened in WWII

I've worked with Germans and Japanese and also been there and found them to be very good to work with. Interesting to see cultural differences with U.S.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Not anti on 11/16/2012 00:19:52 MST Print View

Just for the record, i'm not anti-Jewish, i'm anti-Zionist. I would describe myself as pro-people.
Both Jewish and Christian Zionism has caused this state of affairs. The Christian British Military leaders that helped set up Israel were Zionists trying to bring about the Rapture.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Not anti on 11/16/2012 00:27:41 MST Print View

"Both Jewish and Christian Zionism has caused this state of affairs."

Pretty narrow view for a pro people person you have there. I'd argue all those that persecuted the Jews throughout history are also to blame. You can toss in the Arabs and Persians too.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Jerry's fact checker on 11/16/2012 00:29:52 MST Print View

"The U.S. currently produces 5 or 6 million barrels per day; consumption is approx. 19 million per day"

wikipedia - 2011 U.S. production 9.7 million per day

There's this oil boom in North Dakota. They use the same technology as for fracking to get natural gas. According to IEA report as reported by NPR http://www.wbur.org/npr/164967896/by-2020-united-states-will-become-worlds-leading-oil-producer-says-iea by 2020 U.S. will become largest oil producer.

My failing memory got it a little wrong though - North America will be net oil exporter by 2030, not U.S.

Still, it seems weird that we will continue to be the worlds protector of the Middle East sea lanes for oil transport when that oil won't even go here anymore

Maybe China should build an aircraft carrier and share the protection role with us

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Not anti on 11/16/2012 00:58:31 MST Print View

Pretty narrow view for a pro people person you have there. I'd argue all those that persecuted the Jews throughout history are also to blame. You can toss in the Arabs and Persians too.

I should know better than to step into this puddle...

Michael, I sympathize with your feelings about how the Jews have been treated. But you can find people everywhere you go who have been awfully treated by others. The Jews are not alone. I'd say the American Indians were treated far worse than the Jews ever were, but it's unfair to make such comparisons, because they are all heinous affairs... suffering is suffering, and in both cases they were great suffering, beyond words to express.

What I don't like about the way the Jews talk about all this is that they make it seem as if they are the only people ever to have been treated that way and so demand that they be seen that way, and get preferential treatment in such discussions. And their arguments always make it seem as if they themselves have never done anything terrible to others. They have. The murderous bombings and terrorist activities of Menachem Begin are just one example of how human and like everyone else the Jews are, and what terrible and inhumane things they are just as capable of as everyone else.

Do the Jews deserve a place to live? Of course, as does everyone else. There is only one planet and we have to share it. Denying anyone a place to live is simply wrong. Do they deserve >their own< place? That is very much open to debate. Like it or not, the Palestinians are Semites, the same group of people that the Jews from that area are. The only solution I can see to the problem is that ALL the people there simply give up their restricitive claims to the area and learn to live together in a very small place. Neither the Jews nor the Palestinians deserve to be thrown out. Certainly neither group is going to forfeit their claims. And neither should have to.

Nearly all of the anger of the Arabs and Muslims toward the Israelis has nothing to do with the Israelis being Jews, but to the Palestinians being denied a place to live without threat. It has nothing to do with religion, though a lot of the religious leaders on both sides force it into such a dialogue. Most of that anger would be appeased if the Palestinians were accepted as legitimate co-habitors in that area. Most Arabs and Muslims (Iranians are not Arabs) are not anti-Semitic or anti-Jew. They are deeply against any of their kind being discriminated against. There is a big difference. The problem with the arguments on all sides is that all sides have a legitimate beef, and yet all sides are being unreasonable with their demands.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Not anti on 11/16/2012 02:00:14 MST Print View

Miguel I was Merely responding to Mike Reid blaming the current state of affairs solely on the Christians and the Jews. As if the current Israeli state wasn't in large part a result of persecution. It's a real twisted view to start the blame game at one singular point in time. Sympathy due to a thousand years of persecution and the holocaust has nothing to do with it.

The Palestinians have been given opportunity after opportunity but they thriw it away by letting Hamas continue to lob rockets into Israeli civilian targets. At one point Israel offered to meet nearly all of the demands, but Hamas doesn't want peace.

I disagree that the Arabs care about the Palestinians. They use it as a rallying cry to attack Israel but theyvthemselves have historically wanted no part of the Palestinian refugees.

It's not simple in the least...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Not anti on 11/16/2012 07:45:12 MST Print View

"It's not simple in the least..."

That's for sure

If we tried to treat the Isrealis and Plastinians equally, it might be more likely to get peace there.

Carter got the Isrealis and Egyptians to agree to peace which has held for 30 years (and will hopefully continue) although having to pay them $billions each year isn't good.

Both Isreal and Palestinians agreed to peace agreement a few years ago - too bad it wasn't at the same time.

One report is that a rogue group was launching rockets into Isreal and Hamas was trying to get them to stop, then Isreal retaliated, and things are spinning out of control. Hopefully this will recede.

Yeah, arabs say unacceptable things like they want to push Isreal into the sea. There are right wing elements on all sides, that want to say or do extreme things to provoke the other side into retaliation. Don't listen to these people and maybe we have a chance of eventually making peace.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Alternative history on 11/16/2012 09:12:29 MST Print View

Lets pretend that history was different. There was no USA, but each state was a small seperate country. The middle east wasn't made up of seperate countries, but was a powerful USA (United States of Arabia).

Now lets say that a group from Arabia said they had a book that showed that thousands of years ago, Texas was their home. Hundreds of thousands of Arabians then move into Texas by force, and stick most of the Texans in concentration camps, and force the remainder into little enclaves. The name of Texas is changed to Izzral. Surrounding American states/countries are overwhelmed by Texan refugees. The UN passes resolutions against this action, but as Arabia is a superpower, the UN gets ignored. Neighbouring American countries/states try every means to get the invaders out. When they are realise they can't win against Izzral because of the technology they have been supplied with from Arabia, including nuclear weapons, the Americans resort to suicide bombers as a last resort.

So how do you sort this out? Should the Texans surrender, admit defeat and give up their home to the Arabians, or should the other American states/countries back Texas and keep on trying to force the invaders out?

Edited by MikefaeDundee on 11/16/2012 09:48:47 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Alternative history on 11/16/2012 09:46:31 MST Print View

When you have three distinct groups meddling in a region that all believe in one way or another that their one true God grants them some sort of exceptionalism I'm afraid we're left at a bit of an impasse.

Can a "true believer" of any denomination involved in this nonsense actually compromise on any of the issues at stake without compromising the prophecies of their holy books?

Gotta love that ol' timey religion.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Ol tome religion on 11/16/2012 09:51:18 MST Print View

@Bucktoof.
I wish science would get a move on. Think of all the lives that will be saved when it is proved that god is only a figment of mans imagination.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Ol tome religion on 11/16/2012 09:55:04 MST Print View

It is my understanding that the fastest growing religion in the United States is no religion at all.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/16/2012 09:58:44 MST Print View

"China won't have that problem, Brad. They are wise enough not to interfere in other peoples' countries."

Well in Africa they are selling arms, deploying troops and buying up mineral rights in Sudan, Congo, etc. Others have mentioned what is going on in southeast asia with territorial waters, partnerships with countries like Myanmar, etc. Sounds like they are using arms, military and money to develop relationships with questionable governments. Doesn't really seem much different than what we are doing in the US with our policy. Why do you think Obama is doing a southeast asia tour including Myanmar. Trying to box China in. Yeah guess they don't interfere with other countries...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Alternative history on 11/16/2012 10:06:11 MST Print View

"Hundreds of thousands of Arabians then move into Texas by force, and stick most of the Texans in concentration camps, and force the remainder into little enclaves."

Mike - that sounds a lot like what happened to natives here in North America when Europeans occupied it

Lots of global history of one group of people occupying another territory

Maybe the question is what actions to take that would result in more peace, less war

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/16/2012 10:08:34 MST Print View

"Why do you think Obama is doing a southeast asia tour including Myanmar. Trying to box China in. Yeah guess they don't interfere with other countries..."

That has some historical parallels to what we did to Japan that provoked them to attack us which started WWII

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Alternative history on 11/16/2012 10:10:59 MST Print View

"I wish science would get a move on. Think of all the lives that will be saved when it is proved that god is only a figment of mans imagination."

Yet thinking it all was created out of thin air by a big bang requires no imagination at all.......

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Alternative history on 11/16/2012 10:14:40 MST Print View

Two rights don't make a wrong Jerry.
I feel for the Palestinians, but i also feel for the Israelis who were born into this mess, and played no part in causing it.

Someone has to lose in this conflict. I'm glad i'm not the president of the US, as he is ultimately the person who will choose the winner. How may millions did he receive from pro Israel lobbyists into his campaign fund?

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Alternative history on 11/16/2012 10:18:28 MST Print View

Just because we don't know about certain things Brad, it doesn't follow that we invent the answer.

Here's a question for 'believers'. If i could prove to you, without a shadow of a doubt, that god didn't exist, would you still go to church?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re Alternative history on 11/16/2012 10:23:18 MST Print View

"Two rights don't make a wrong Jerry."

If you worry about who's right and wrong, it just leads to arguments


"Someone has to lose in this conflict."

A reasonable peace would result in bot Isrealis and Palistinians feeling like "they won"

At some point, they may both realize that perpetual war isn't good for either.

But the extremists on both sides want perpetual war because it keeps them powerful.

If moderates on both sides came up with a peace agreement, then the extremists on both sides would be discarded, and no one wants to be discarded, so they keep provoking war

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Right here, right now. on 11/16/2012 10:29:50 MST Print View

TV is showing wall to wall coverage of the present violence in Israel/Palestine. Presenters are live on the streets of Tel Aviv. Seemingly someone knows someone who sat next to someone on a bus who might have seem a missile overhead. They are trying to create a victim scenario for Israel

How many cameras are showing the results of Israeli military action in Palestinian areas? None. We in the west don't get shown what is happening to the Palestinians right now. Folk are dying, but it doesn't suit the political agenda to show it.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Right here, right now. on 11/16/2012 10:34:13 MST Print View

I'll bite

Just looked at CNN

Map of Gaza - "Hamas says 24 dead, 200 wounded"

OMG - I'm agreeing with Micheal L : )