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Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Valid combatant targets-a future discussion on 11/15/2012 16:08:42 MST Print View

"There most certainly ARE issues where this gets sticky- recall that I just mentioned having first hand experience- but I'll reserve that discussion for later, if anyone cares about it."

I, for one, will look forward to that discussion, Dean. You are in a unique position among BPLer's to add a perspective that should definitely be part of the discourse. I will not be there to argue with you on this one, but to sit back, listen, and broaden my perspective. Hopefully, you won't mind if I ask a few questions, but I promise they will not be confrontational. We all need to get beyond that if anything positive is to emerge from discussing an issue as important as this one.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 16:18:57 MST Print View

"If that is surgical, I would hate to see what a hack job looks like."

Perhaps the most relevant example of that is what the Zionists did to the Palestinian civilian population at the village level back in 1947-48. It was not a pretty sight, sheer butchery with a coldly calculated purpose, and it went unreported in the Western press. Hamas cannot begin to extract vengeance with the crude technology at their disposal. That collection of crimes against humanity is at the heart of the situation we face in the Middle East to this day. But keep the faith, Katharina. The ground is shifting under Israel, and they are living on borrowed time if they do not mend their ways. Quickly.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 16:54:19 MST Print View

They have fought for a few thousand years why do we think it is going to change or that we understand. If you are a native of the area then maybe you do but the rest of us don't .

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:01:09 MST Print View

"why do we think it is going to change or that we understand. If you are a native of the area then maybe you do but the rest of us don't ."

If that is the case, it might be well to ask why every US Administration going back to Truman's has supported one side against the other, a course of action that has grown increasingly expensive and has indirectly embroiled us in two futile, budget busting wars, with a third looming on the horizon. When will the citizenry start questioning the rationale for our blind support of Israel?

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:04:07 MST Print View

We don't think we can solve, but try to keep from exploding. Wars are about oil in my opinion.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:11:03 MST Print View

"Wars are about oil in my opinion."

Buying the oil is much cheaper than what we did in Iraq, and we still don't control Iraqi oil. Saddam would have been delighted to sell us oil, and let our oil companies, with their advanced technology, participate in extracting Iraqi oil. And that still doesn't answer the question of why we blindly support Israel. What do they have to do with oil? I could even make a pretty good case that supporting them endangers our access to Middle Eastern oil.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:11:14 MST Print View

@ Michael

" we don't need any anti Jewish propaganda"

And this is where the discussion inevitably leads to, in this country. Have a problem with Israeli politics and now you are spreading anti Jewish propaganda.
I expect more from you, Michael.
My father was Jewish. I do have a problem with us supporting what Israel is doing.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:40:06 MST Print View

"Wars are about oil in my opinion."

My beloved KPOJ has switched from liberal political to sports, so I listen to NPR, that pointed out that

because all of the oil we discovered in North Dakota, we will soon by supplying all of our own oil. We will be the biggest oil producer, replacing Saudi Arabia. Even today, all of our oil imports are from Mexico and Canada.

China and Japan are the consumers of middle east oil.

so, will that change our role in defending the shipping lanes from the Middle East, and all those wars in Iraq/Afganistan/Iran?

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:51:37 MST Print View

Tom-

I think the US initially began supporting Israel years ago for two reasons 1) the Jewish influence is strong in this country & has been for a long time, and 2) the Christian segment of our population believes that the Jews are God's chosen people. The Bible says as such in numerous places. One off the top of my head says "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

There are probably other smaller reasons like them being a democracy,etc but I think those above are the main reasons.



Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 11/15/2012 17:59:43 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:54:10 MST Print View

German treatment of Jews during WWII has something to do with our support of Isreal

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:58:50 MST Print View

"Even today, all of our oil imports are from Mexico and Canada. China and Japan are the consumers of middle east oil."

We're getting there. 13% of our oil is from the Persian Gulf, 10% from Africa, some from Venezuela, etc. ~20% comes from Canada and Mexico. Although we are getting less & less from the Arab nations.

Ryan

Jim Colten
(jcolten)

Locale: MN
OIL: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 17:59:57 MST Print View

we will soon by supplying all of our own oil ... so, will that change our role in defending the shipping lanes from the Middle East

Dream on!


  1. The oil market is so completely global that changes to any source of supply (or even hints of changes) result in price fluctuations everywhere.

  2. Regardless of where oil is produced it will be sold to the buyer willing to pay the most ... not ENTIRELY true, not all crude is equal and not all refineries are capable of refining all crudes) ... but true enough for this duscussion


U.S. (or North American) "energy independence" will never happen as long as we are burning oil for energy.

Edited by jcolten on 11/15/2012 18:00:29 MST.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:03:03 MST Print View

Jerry I think our own oil dependency is around 2020. However pushing trucking industry to natural gas could speed that up. Doubt anybody knows for sure.

What I find interesting is how terrorist will handle China? Gotta think China will not be tolerate to people messy with their oil.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:04:13 MST Print View

"I think the US initially began supporting Israel years ago for two reasons 1) the Jewish influence is strong in this country & has been for a long time, and 2) the Christian segment of our population believes that the Jews are God's chosen people. The Bible says as such in numerous places. One off the top of my head says "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."



Ryan,

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. It is the 500 pound gorilla in the room that nobody wants to talk about, especially politicians, who live in mortal fear of the wrath of AIPAC, and a host of other pro Zionist groups. It has been an utter disaster for this country, and things are only going to get worse as time goes on. The issue urgently needs to be addressed if we are to avoid an explosion that will be a calamity for us all. A precondition of any rational discussion of the issue is
abandoning knee jerk accusations of anti Semitism against those who seek to promote a more even handed approach to the issues surrounding the Palestine question, rather than engage in a civilized debate over different approaches to a resolution.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:07:18 MST Print View

"What do they have to do with oil? "

Nothing. Nor anything to do with wars. Others have suggested why we support them.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: OIL: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:09:40 MST Print View

I think it's in 2020 that we're projected to get no oil from middle East. Or is it that we'll import no oil. I forget... Stories on network news and NPR.

edit - ha ha - Brad beat me to it : )

But, you're right, oil is global comodity so if China loses their supply of oil from Middle East, oil prices will go up, and then we'll pay more for oil produced and consumed here. Kind of weird isn't it : )

Still, it makes you wonder why we spend so much on the military and other countries just use oil.

Part of why we're importing less, is efficiency. Obama and auto companies agreed upon increases in MPG requirements. So, if oil prices went up it will have less of an effect.

Edited by retiredjerry on 11/15/2012 18:11:39 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:14:34 MST Print View

"However pushing trucking industry to natural gas could speed that up"

That is what's sad

Many people have proposed this but D and R politicans won't do anything

So, there's a glut of natural gas, which drives the price down, which screws everything up

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:15:45 MST Print View

"Nor anything to do with wars."

They have a lot to do with those wars, Brad, both of them. And if we get into a third one with Iran, then it will be three. Do you really believe that we consider a nuclear armed Iran a strategic threat to us? By that logic, we should be going after Pakistan, already a nuclear armed Muslim state, but we' don't. While we're on the subject, do you really think we give a d@mn about the Syrian people when we support their efforts to overthrow Assad? Who just happens to be allied with Iran.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn) - M

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: OIL: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:22:51 MST Print View

MPG really hasn't had time to impact but will. Mostly economy.

Crude oil is priced differently to some degree (WTI vs Brent).

Natural gas is certainly priced differently around the world. Dirt cheap now in US but could certainly change

Again a comprehensive energy policy that includes all energy types would be nice. Renewable will not solve all the problems in the next 50 years without an unexpected discovery.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Valid combatant targets @ Dean on 11/15/2012 18:36:12 MST Print View

And this is where the discussion inevitably leads to, in this country. Have a problem with Israeli politics and now you are spreading anti Jewish propaganda.

I'm completely with Kat on this. Going by your reasoning, Michael, every conversation about whom Israel and the US attacks can be construed as "anti-Arab" or "anti-Muslim". The level of support the US gives to Israel is way beyond reasonable, if you are trying to think in terms of finding a solution to the conflict there.

In the discussion between Dean and Tom, one thing that, as a non-American, deeply troubles and infuriates me is the unquestioned assumption that America's concerns and desires preclude those of everyone else in the world. In the discussion about attacking Afghanistan to get bin Ladin, the statement, "It had to be done." is about as hubristic as I can think of, with a cavalier dismissal of Afghanistan as a valid and sovereign entity, that exhibits an aristocratic attitude worthy of any of the world's empires, and goes against the very thing that Americans were fighting against when they broke away from Britain. Even the term, "terrorist" is a total dismissal of another people's authenticity and legitimacy (and the very reason why those who become "terrorists" become what they do). People very rarely fully address the whole issue of what a "terrorist" really is; the term is just vaguely applied so that no more responsibility is needed in thinking about another person. "It had to be done"? That statement alone says everything about how Americans see everyone else in the world. And why I won't go further in this discussion in this thread. My views will just be dismissed and I will have to defend myself against people telling me I'm "anti-American" or "hate America", simply because I'm trying to take a non-partisan route and refuse to submit to favoritism. I can't be part of such discussions.

Still, I'm impressed by the level of restraint and respect exhibited in the latter part of this thread (I couldn't care less about the Obama/ Romney debate). Not an easy topic to talk about without blowing your cool.