Romney/Ryan 2012
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Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Abortions. on 10/13/2012 20:46:34 MDT Print View

The pint isn't to argue abortions. The point I was making to Jerry was that factcheck was erring on his side. Ryan saying the bill pd for abortions was called a lie since it only was for incest and rape. Well it's not a lie because the abortion is still an abortion. Means of conception cant be used to argue it isn't the termination of a fetus.


That said i still like factcheck the best.


Oh and Jerry I was just responding to stuff in your post.

Edited by mpl_35 on 10/13/2012 20:48:01 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/13/2012 21:07:40 MDT Print View

"By the way PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PWC) has stated in a letter that he paid 20.2% over the past 20 years."

Given that the major accounting firms are paragons of rectitude, I guess if PWC says it, it must be true. Still, I'd be considerably more convinced if Romney corroborated PWC's letter by making the last 10 years' returns public. He!!, I'd even settle for 5. After all, he's got nothing to hide. Does he? As Ronnie once said, trust, but verify. Or maybe he doesn't want the public to see how the average was arrived at? Like, for instance, 35% before the Bush tax cuts went into effect and considerably less afterward. He paid something like 13% in 2010 and more or the less the same in 2011, he says. How about 2007-9? Just a thought...

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/13/2012 21:21:14 MDT Print View

Tom,

PWC is a very respectable company and they do my tax returns every year. However you chose to bash them without any evidence to the contrary. You guys are trying so hard to make an issue out of this. Has the IRS audited or questioned his return?

What's amazes me is how the liberal say back off Obama proving his birth certificate (which I agree is BS), but want to press Romney for tax statements. You just want his tax returns so you can cherry pick stuff to make him look bad.

I get so sick of each party trying to grasp for nit picky stuff. Focus on the d*** big picture.

Brad

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/13/2012 21:29:27 MDT Print View

"Rape and incest account for less than 1% of all abortion. What if we take that off the table?"

Then we're left with >99% whose decisions are hostage to the religious beliefs of a minority of the American electorate. On a secular level, do you really want to return to the days when abortion was a back alley affair dominated by The Mob? That is where it will surely end up in the religious right does manage to overturn Roe v. Wade, Brad, because abortion isn't going to disappear, a tarnished Supreme Court's edicts notwithstanding.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/13/2012 21:51:04 MDT Print View

"PWC is a very respectable company and they do my tax returns every year."

So was Arthur Anderson.

"However you chose to bash them without any evidence to the contrary."

If looking for corroborating evidence is bashing, then I'm bashing. My point is that averages can be very deceiving, and the amount Romney paid year by year would provide a much clearer picture of how he took advantage of loopholes and special interest provisions in the tax code, or didn't. I find it suspicious that he refuses to do what every other candidate has done over the last several presidential election cycles.

"You guys are trying so hard to make an issue out of this."

It is an issue, and Romney is making it easy for us.

"Has the IRS audited or questioned his return?"

Beside the point. As I said, there are all sorts of loopholes and special interest provisions in the tax code that are useful only to the rich, so he could be doing a lot of things to avoid paying more taxes that, while perfectly "legal", might be viewed negatively by the American public. We could start with carried interest, and go from there to various accounting maneuvers pertaining to off shore accounts, and so on. With his tax returns public, his promises to make even further tax cuts that end up benefitting primarily the rich might ring hollow, indeed, not to mention cost him the election.

"You just want his tax returns so you can cherry pick stuff to make him look bad."

Sort of like conservatives cherry pick things from Obama's record? Like the Ben Ghazi tragedy, which is a nit in the context of Obama's overall foreign policy record. Talk about cherry picking. While we're on the subject of cherry picking, I haven't heard a single comment from the right about Obama's tax returns. There must be something in there they could use.

"Focus on the d*** big picture."

I think taxes are pretty d*** big, given the state of our economy and the practical reality that we can't cut our way to a balanced budget without causing social chaoes and probably a recession, or worse. And it is patently obvious, given the massive and increasing imbalance in income/wealth distribution, that you can't take it out of the hides of what's left of the middle class, much less the poor. Just for the record, what qualifies as "big picture" in your opinion?

Edited by ouzel on 10/13/2012 21:56:04 MDT.

a b
(Ice-axe)
- on 10/13/2012 22:09:19 MDT Print View

.

Edited by Ice-axe on 10/18/2012 19:26:12 MDT.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 06:49:50 MDT Print View

"Then we're left with >99% whose decisions are hostage to the religious beliefs of a minority of the American electorate."

Those 99% made a decision that put them in that situation. Nobody forced them to become pregnant and they made a decision not to take precautions. Guess I'm wrong because I believe people should be responsible for their actions. The trend is this country is surely not for people to be responsible.

BTW, regardless of my religious beliefs I think it's wrong. As a father of 3 children I have a hard time with the thought of aborting a child. Why does the child not have any rights?

I think we will need to agree to disagree. I respect your decision and your attack on those with a differing view.

Brad

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 07:21:15 MDT Print View

"My point is that averages can be very deceiving, and the amount Romney paid year by year would provide a much clearer picture of how he took advantage of loopholes and special interest provisions in the tax code, or didn't"

So let me understand. You don't care that he paid 20% over 20 years. You would like to see by year: 40%, 30%, 0%, 15%, 50%, 0%, etc. This way you could say in 4 of those 20 years he paid 0% and 2 years he paid less than 15% and then just ignore all the years he paid the higher taxes. Kinda like my example with Reid when he focused on capital gain and ignored the capital loss. Tom you digging a deeper hole.

Why doesn't Obama go after "carried interest" at 15%? Oh I forgot his big supporter Soros benefits greatly from this.

"Just for the record, what qualifies as "big picture" in your opinion?"

- Obama can't present a budget in 4 years that shows any evidence of controlling our spending problem. His own party doesn't support his budget.
- Neither party is increased in solving the problem
- Bush tax cuts are a dark cloud in January, but you hear neither party address. The large consensus if we roll them all back we are headed for a recession at best.
- Defense cuts pending in January. This has a very negative impact on economy and more job losses. The administration is playing around with the WARN act. Asking contractors not to announce lay offs until after the election. Why? If these cuts go through we are going to loss some very good and well paying jobs, but seems nobody cares.
- Biden saying we are going to increase taxes on the rich by 1 trillion. No mention of a balanced approach

Neither party wants to develop a comprehensive plan that is needed to address the crisis our country is in. My friend this is the big picture in my opinion. I don't think:
- Romney's tax returns. Just assume the worse and move on
- Ben Ghazi: mistakes where made. learn from it and move on
- Obama birth certificate: don't care
- Fast and furious: mistakes where made. learn from it and move on

Both parties are using these non issues to avoid dealing with the bigger issue. Maybe you can defend your party, but they both make me sick and I feel like we have no hope to addressing these issues in future. I think the only hope we have is to have several elections of massive turnover to get the parties attention.

Brad

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 07:28:06 MDT Print View

I don't think saying a woman should be the one that decides, not some old, rich, white, male in congress, is attacking anyone. That congressman is attacking the woman if anyone is.

Birth control isn't perfect - especially in the passion of the moment, and many people also want to restrict birth control.

But I agree - I have a hard time thinking about aborting a fetus. And I think it's traumatic for a lot of people. I can see why this is such a difficult subject.

The "men behind the curtain" who are financing the Republican party and the Democratic party to some extent, love this issue. They don't care. If they want to get an abortion they can send their wife or daughter to a OBGYN and get a D&C procedure. They love that we're arguing about it and love it even more if it's never resolved so the arguing will continue. Then we won't noticed them lowering taxes, regulations, increasing subsidies on themselves.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 07:42:21 MDT Print View

Romney should have released his returns for the last several years (5 or 10?) like every other presidential candidate. The fact that he didn't despite even Republicans calling for it means there must be embarrasing stuff. Maybe he's invested in illegal tax shelters and then negotiated a settlement.

I'll assume the worst and move on (not vote for him : )

Romney Ryan keep bringing these up because this is all they have - they won't move on:
- Ben Ghazi: mistakes where made.
- Obama birth certificate:
- Fast and furious: mistakes where made.

And they say that the stimulous was just sending money to cronies.

Except, like Biden pointed out, Ryan sent a letter requesting his share of stimulous and in that letter he acknowledged that the stimulous will increase growth and jobs.

I agree they're not getting things done, but it's mostly because the Republican's #1 priority is to use obstruction to make sure nothing get's done so Obama doesn't get re-elected.

I think the solution is to vote out any Republican that has been pushing obstructionist policies, not Obama who's actually got some things done regardless.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
capital gains and super-rich on 10/14/2012 08:43:53 MDT Print View

I looked at this a tiny bit more - cleaner set of data

From http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/09intop400.pdf

For the year 2007, the last year they have data for before the recession

400 richest people:
73% of income is capital gains and dividends - currently taxed at 15%
14% - salary and interest taxed at higher rate
12% - partnership and S corp - is this taxed at ordinary income rate or cap gain rate?

total population:
15% of income is capital gains and dividends.
78% - salary and interest
7% partnership and S corp

I think that the top 0.01% and top 0.1% of taxpayers are similar to the top 400, but there is no convenient place that I found with that data

My point is, that the super-rich (top 0.1%) have a large percent of their income as capital gains and dividends, so if you want to shift tax from the rich to the middle class (reverse Robin Hood) then lower capital gains and dividend taxes.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Romney/Ryan 2012 on 10/14/2012 08:45:01 MDT Print View

This thread is just like the government. All talk and no resolutions. If our servants in Washington ever fixed anything then what?

Been the same issues all my 45 years.

Employment, Social Security, Federal Health Care, Gas Prices, What to do with the pesky Middle East, Trade with China, Abortion, Nukes, bla, bla, bla...

Only thing that has changed is that CCCP is not as big a threat as it was. But others have taken up the slack.

Oh and it's a pain in the rear to fly anymore.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Romney/Ryan 2012 on 10/14/2012 08:49:18 MDT Print View

CCCP was a "boogy man" used to justify stupid government spending

quickly replaced by new "Boogy men" like "Islamo-facists" and the war against drugs.

"It's a pain in the rear to fly anymore" - security theatre to scare us

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 14:51:56 MDT Print View

"I agree they're not getting things done, but it's mostly because the Republican's #1 priority is to use obstruction to make sure nothing get's done so Obama doesn't get re-elected."


Sure Jerry, because when the Dems controlled everything they went ahead and passed a budget. Oh, wait. And its the Rep that have tried but the Dem Senates scuttles it every time.

So dont play the blame game with the stalemate. At least the Dems had a chance. They just didn't want to do it.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 15:23:17 MDT Print View

Ha ha ha Michael - nice right wing talking point

The Democrats controlled both houses 2008 to 2010, but the Republicans had enough senators to make a record number of filibusters to prevent almost anything from passing.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 15:31:26 MDT Print View

Nice try Jerry. The dems never tried because they didnt want the bad pub from passing a budget.

So while u can claim a filibuster could have been done its just hot air.


And even today the senate still has the votes to pass a budget by they don't want to even try.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 15:46:52 MDT Print View

As a voter/taxpayer is it too much to ask the President to present a balanced budget with a plan to pay down the deficit? Do believe it's the President's responsibility to lead in this area, but he can't even get his own party to support his plan. You can't blame that on the Republicans.

As I said before. Big issues are:
- presenting a balanced budget
- plan to pay down the deficit
- plan to address the automatic tax cuts that are looming (I haven't heard anything from either party on this during the election)

Now it appears the next debate is going to focus on:
- Dems: Bain
- Reps: Libya

Way to address the problems guys. Bunch of worthless politicians.

Brad

Edited by wufpackfn on 10/14/2012 15:48:06 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 16:10:13 MDT Print View

What difference does it make that the House Republicans "passed a budget" that wouldn't be approved by the senate?

Or that the democrats didn't pass a budget that would have been fillibustered anyway?

Just another meaningless right wing talking point

Republicans ran up huge deficit so they could yell "we're broke" and kill programs that help average people

Republicans refuse to vote for elimination of any tax loopholes

Democrats refuse to just cut expenses without also eliminating loopholes

After the election they'll presumably resolve the "fiscal cliff" somehow

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 16:29:53 MDT Print View

Brad.

Did you see obamas budget was shot down 99-0 in the senate? So yeah he's trying to bring everybody together.

Jerry

Speculative bs. That's what you have. That's a talking point. Bring a budget to the floor and then if its filibustered we can talk. Till then your making stuff up.

The senate dems have rejected at least 5 budgets. FIVE. They don't care to pass one. They should be strung up for failing to do their duty.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: factcheck.org on 10/14/2012 16:32:52 MDT Print View

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/05/16/house-gop-budget-plan-senate_n_1522393.html

Here is about as kind as you can get for you boys from the left leaning huffington post to boot.