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Romney/Ryan 2012
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Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
bubbles on 08/22/2012 11:15:55 MDT Print View

@ Harold

"The US deficit spiked under all Republican presidents, Bush helped push, via deregulation, the entire housing and high tech bubbles, and got out just as it was crashing down."

If you want to blame the housing bubble on Bush, you have lost any credibility that was offered. In an effort to make sure everyone had a house, the Fed government arm twisted lenders into loans that should never have been written. I don't want to get into all the Fannies and Freddies, derivatives, tranches, and so on... but the ball started rolling with a Democratic president, was accelerated by another Democrat, and overseen by a Democratic congressman. It's another example of the Federal government creating false economies and unintended consequences while trying to look like they care. It always amazes me how people can assume a regulated industry is an efficient and honest one. Or, how the EPA will keep us clean and safe but turn around and force us to use an additive like MTBE. Lets use the less efficient ethanol and then wonder why corn prices go up.

I have to wonder, given the track record, why anyone would want the Feds involved in anything. If you don’t believe the recovery, or lack of it, can be partially (some would say primarily) attributed to the stuff coming out of DC, I’d say look around. I know business owners personally that want to hire, but are sitting on their hands until the health care dust settles.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Robber Barons on 08/22/2012 13:26:53 MDT Print View

Can you say "robber barons"?

None of these problems could have reached the proportions they did without the scam
artists. Just because the gumint is one step behind the crooks and polluters doesn't
mean the feds caused the problem.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: agree and disagree on 08/22/2012 14:49:49 MDT Print View

Hi Harold

Seems like we might be disagreeing over semantics, as what you call 'intelligence' and 'education' don't seem to jibe with mine. Never-the-less, I pretty much agree that diet and social culture (or in this case lack of it) due to the rapid uptake of TV, gaming and the online social networks, have contributed to a travesty for our youth. But an education which focuses solely on rote learning isn't helping the situation either. Critical thinking can definitely be taught, with varying degrees of success, to most people.

For the record, I consider 'intelligence' to be an inborn capacity that can either be nurtured through good education and life experiences, or stagnated from lack of them. I consider education to be giving as much useful information to each individual, keeping in mind that not all children can learn the same things with the same ease. I consider the synthesis of intelligence and education into a knowledgeable and productive, even happy, citizen to be 'wisdom'. But it all starts with education. Without it, even potentially intelligent folks remain ignorant. Well that's my working concepts anyway.

So I don't advocate free education for the sake of it if it is not useful education.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
bubble baron on 08/22/2012 15:25:04 MDT Print View

@ David

If you don't believe the feds were the instigators in the housing bubble, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Anyone near the mortgage / banking industry can tell you where credit standards went and why they went there. It was forced. The false market of unintended consequences had to pop sooner or later and people in the industry knew it was coming.

I think we can both agree that there were a lot of shell games going where some profited and some lost their tails. Some smart people came up with some really creative ways to market crappy investments because the feds were forcing the market. Lots of people didn't have a chair when the music ended. The tax payers will never be through paying for it. Asshats like Frank, will enjoy his government pension and profits on the speaking tour.

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Housing Bubble on 08/22/2012 19:09:07 MDT Print View

Fred's correct about the feds being behind the housing bubble.

Check this video:


The Bush Video announcing the American Dream Downpayment Fundprogram is linked below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNqQx7sjoS8.

Talking about the feds always reminds me of Pogo's famous quote: "We have met the enemy and he is us!" or something like that.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Housing Bubble on 08/22/2012 19:26:51 MDT Print View

"Fred's correct about the feds being behind the housing bubble."

Which begs the question of who's behind the Feds in this age of "the best government money can buy".

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Behind the Feds on 08/22/2012 19:34:25 MDT Print View

Prince Harry

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Housing Bubble on 08/22/2012 19:34:47 MDT Print View

"Which begs the question of who's behind the Feds in this age of "the best government money can buy"."

That's easy. We are. The voters who put the 'leaders' in place to erect the structure that works best for them, and who allow these 'leaders' to do all sorts of things in our name.

People love to throw blame around - it's the Dems. No, it's the Repubs. No, it's the rich.

Sorry, I'll unabashedly say it's us, the voters. It all starts with us.

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
bete noir on 08/22/2012 20:03:14 MDT Print View

Did you ever consider we could vote ourselves right out of a "democracy"

Sorry for the flip answer Tom. It's getting late here on the east coast. There's reams on info on the idea Fred is espousing. It all started with the C.R.A Community Reinvestment Act. You could have googled "the Big Lie" @ a year ago and more than half the first page of hits would be articles about the mortgage crisis being caused by lending to minorities compelled by the "feds"

This despite at least 80% of the loans and loan failures involving "non-minorities" Probably north of 90% in total $ volume And also a large majority, again probably more than 80% of the loans being made by private lenders and not involving the GSA's. The GSA's did take some hits/losses when they belatedly/desperately got in the game late in '06, 07.'08 since they were losing so much volume to private lenders....... regulatory failure.

If this topic stays live maybe I'll post some articles I have archived tomorrow.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Less regulation? on 08/23/2012 10:38:59 MDT Print View

So the answer to this is less regulation? How about proper evaluation and adjustment of
policy over time to correct unintended problems?

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Regulated to bankruptcy on 08/23/2012 11:48:46 MDT Print View

@ Cola

The mortgage/banking industry is heavily regulated. Private lenders are subject to all of the government rules. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.

Funny how the heavily regulated industries alway seem to be filing chapter supthin', or getting bailed out by the tax payer, or making a few scoundrels filthy rich.

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Regulation on 08/23/2012 13:03:04 MDT Print View

Yes David

No Fred

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Housing Bubble on 08/23/2012 18:12:17 MDT Print View

"That's easy. We are. The voters who put the 'leaders' in place to erect the structure that works best for them, and who allow these 'leaders' to do all sorts of things in our name."

Ultimately, but until people wake up those who pay directly for the best government money can buy are pretty much writing the rules and regulations, including the loopholes that allow politicians a fig leaf to present to the masses while allowing their patrons to conduct business as usual under the radar. I don't blame either party solely, nor do I blame the masses entirely. There are some pretty cunning people involved in this mess that are very adept at concealing what is going on from poorly educated people just struggling to get by in an increasingly complex world that evolves at warp speed in tandem with technological change. Yes, it could all change in one election if all voters were as aware as some of the folks on this website, but that is not a realistic expectation given the human condition. A democracy depends not only on an educated citizenry, but a certain level of decency and morality on the part of both those who seek political power and those who are gifted with a higher level of intelligence but choose to pursue power thru business and the accumulation of wealth. My two cents.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Regulated to bankruptcy on 08/24/2012 15:37:34 MDT Print View

Good to get out hiking for a few days - but I missed chaff : )

Housing Bubble caused by ending of Glass Stegal. Now investment banks, commercial banks, and insurnace companies can merge. So, the same bank approves mortgages (which they make a small amount on) which can then be packaged into derivatives (which they make huge amounts on). Huge demand for more mortgages so they can create more derivatives. No reason to be critical of loan approval.

We have only half re-instated Glass Stegal so another financial collapse is likely.

Cognitive Dissonance - when someone believes something and can not hear conflicting information

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Rape on 08/24/2012 15:43:44 MDT Print View

What is it the guy said "a woman has ways to prevent pregnancy"?

I believe that's to not have an orgasm

So the Republican male politician is saying if a woman has an orgasm it's not a legitimate rape?

I don't think males, or politicians, or Republicans have a right to even talk about rape except to have empathy as best we can.

And it's amazing that the right wingers who control the Republican party and only care about enriching themselves, can say awful things like that, and then a bunch of religious people will vote for them.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: New York Times chart on 08/24/2012 15:46:36 MDT Print View

Michael, what is it you don't like about the deficit chart?

That the CBO analysis is wrong?

That the New York Times graphing ability is poor?

Or you just don't like the fact that the deficit is because of programs voted in during the Bush Administration, not communist/socialist programs created by Obama and the Democrats?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Rape on 08/24/2012 16:08:08 MDT Print View

"What is it the guy said "a woman has ways to prevent pregnancy"?

I believe that's to not have an orgasm"

Ummmmmm, orgasms are not necessary for pregnancy.....

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Regulated to bankruptcy on 08/24/2012 16:31:27 MDT Print View

"Funny how the heavily regulated industries alway seem to be filing chapter supthin', or getting bailed out by the tax payer, or making a few scoundrels filthy rich"

That's called The Golden rule, Fred: Them what has the gold makes the rules. And regulations. ;0)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Romney/Ryan 2012 on 08/24/2012 16:35:18 MDT Print View

Brad, I agree - we will have to agree to disagree : )

Yes economy is bad so you can't claim based on that evidence that either deficit or tax cuts help the economy


"See that is the mentality of the public sector. They don't hire people because a job needs to get done, they hire to just put people on the payroll."

Having a one time federal program to send (borrowed) money to keep teachers, firefighters, and police will prevent those people from being layed off which will improve the unemployment statistic. If they receive pay, they'll spend it, some of it with you, the small businessman, which will improve the economy. These jobs need to be done, not just "make work".


"We are starving for engineers, scientist, technology, etc. I would hire 3 or 4 more people tomorrow if I could find the right people."

I have heard the same thing from other engineers - plenty of jobs for trained people.

If it didn't cost so much, I bet more people would get technical degrees - free market. And we need more talking about it like when President Kennedy talked about people getting jobs in science.


"How much more would you like the taxpayers to subsidize education? You have to cut the cost of education and not look to the govt to subsidize. Where is that money going to come from? Spend, spend, spend."

In the 1970s I got engineer degree. Heavily subsidized by the government. I had to borrow total of $3000 which is $6000 in today dollars. My dad's was free with the GI bill after WWII. People like us are responsible for the high tech boom that followed.

If we subsidized education like that today, we could create another boom that is hard to imagine what it would be today.

Where does the money come from? Make everyone pay their fair share. Quit spending so much on the military which makes our security worse. Quit subsidizing big industries like oil, coal, agriculture,... Control medical costs which is screwing up everything - quit paying huge amount for ineffective care. No "silver bullet" solution.


I just hate that the Republicans told us they were going to lower our taxes, but they lowered taxes on super-rich and big corporation but only gave us a token decrease. Do you remember that check George Bush sent to all of us with a small, one time tax rebate?

Now they're saying they're going to lower taxes on the "job creators" (focus group tested phrase for super-rich and big corporations) and you're falling for it again - they're not going to lower your taxes.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Rape on 08/24/2012 16:38:40 MDT Print View

"Ummmmmm, orgasms are not necessary for pregnancy....."

I watched show on Discovery Channel or PBS saying this improves the chance of getting pregnant.

What other ways do women have to prevent pregnancy?

Whatever that disgusting male politician meant was awful