I was about to post a couple gruesome pictures of Palestinian children that have been blown up in this latest round. I refrained.
This conversation has to happen and it has to happen without fear of labeling.
Many Jewish young people in the US no longer identify with the victim mentality. What happened in the past was horrible and wrong. As Mike said, today's victim's of the Holocaust are the Palestinians; the guilt that the US is still carrying is allowing this unbelievable injustice to continue. Not just allowing, but financing it.

Mike this is a discussion that will go no where. I've been a long time believer and I'm very comfortable with my beliefs. You have a different opinion and I totally respect that opinion.

But to humor you. Let's take religion out of it and focus on it from a purely mathematical standpoint. I'm going to cut and paste a simple example though I have seen many. I know nothing about this guy, but examples like this have been used repeatedly.

"Robert Shapiro cites Nobel laureate Sir Fred Hoyle’s calculation of the odds of a bacterium spontaneously generating [p.127]. At first Hoyle and his colleague, N. C. Wickramasinghe, endorsed spontaneous generation, but reversed their position once they calculated the odds.

A typical bacterium, which is the simplest of cells, is made up of 2,000 enzymes. Hoyle and Wickramasinghe took the probability of randomly assembling one enzyme and multiplied that number by itself 2,000 times to calculate the odds of a single bacterium randomly coming together. Those odds are 1 in 1040,000. Hoyle said the likelihood of this happening is comparable to the chance that “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.”

These are the odds of just a single, simple cell, without which evolution cannot even get started. Never mind the odds of more advanced compounds like an organ or all the enzymes in a human being."


IMHO the statistical odds of this world creating from a simple cell are impossible, not just a matter of time before it is figured out. So my question is now that I have proved that it is statistically impossible to not have been created will you go to Church? Just kidding.

Now we are way off subject here, so let's move along.

"How many cameras are showing the results of Israeli military action in Palestinian areas? None. We in the west don't get shown what is happening to the Palestinians right now. Folk are dying, but it doesn't suit the political agenda to show it."

+1

You are not saying the media is bias are you?

Lets call it quits Brad. :-)
I fully respect the right of others to have alternative views.

As Kat has just said, horrible things are happening in Palestine right at this moment. Are your TV stations showing any of this? Other TV stations such as Al Jazeera and Russia Today are showing different video from what you are allowed to see. Why is that?

"Lets call it quits Brad. :-)
I fully respect the right of others to have alternative views."

+1

No TV at work, so can't respond to your question. Sounds like a mess

Time difference Brad.
I'll be sleeping before you finish work.
This local beer is dam'n good. :-)
Comma inserted to pass the religious BPL filter.

I'm sorry, but i can't watch any more of this propoganda.
BBC News 24 is reporting from the streets of Tel Aviv. The presenter is trying his best to present a picture of a city under attack. As he was live on camera, a jogger went past followed by a couple with their arms around each other. They were obviously on a normal Friday night out on the town.
Time for me to switch off and listen to some music.

Another viewpoint

"This local beer is dam'n good. :-)"

Just wrong but I'm home now and can take the baton while you sleep.

"Just for the record, i'm not anti-Jewish, i'm anti-Zionist."

+1 Just for the record.

"Both Jewish and Christian Zionism has caused this state of affairs. The Christian British Military leaders that helped set up Israel were Zionists trying to bring about the Rapture."

Thanks for bringing it up, Mike. This is not commonly known in the US. Does the name Orde Wingate ring a bell with anyone?

"Well in Africa they are selling arms, deploying troops and buying up mineral rights in Sudan, Congo, etc."

That is not interfering, Brad, as it is being done with the consent and cooperation of the governments involved. Is is a long way from the way we have conducted ourselves for the past several decades.


"Others have mentioned what is going on in southeast asia with territorial waters, partnerships with countries like Myanmar, etc. Sounds like they are using arms, military and money to develop relationships with questionable governments. Doesn't really seem much different than what we are doing in the US with our policy."

When is the last time China committed troops to combat? Aside from a brief foray into Viet Nam, Korea was their last combat operation, and that came only when US troops were at the Yalu River. If you do a little reading of Chinese history from the time of the first British incursions in the mid 18th century, you will quickly understand why they are so sensitive about Western meddling on their borders, as well as their desire to have a buffer of non threatening states. They have never attempted to project power far beyond their borders as we have been doing.

As for using arms, questional governments, etc, it is indeed much the same. However, we stand alone in being almost continually involved in combat operations or attempts at regime change by other means. There is a world of difference between trying to gain influence thru arms sales, bribery, economic aid, trade, etc, and imposing yourself by force of arms or economic sanctions.

"Why do you think Obama is doing a southeast asia tour including Myanmar. Trying to box China in." Yes, and it is highly unlikely to succeed. Indeed, as we pi$$ away our resources on useless wars, China is building the infrastructure of a super power. Efforts to "box them in" are ultimately doomed to failure.

""Both Jewish and Christian Zionism has caused this state of affairs. The Christian British Military leaders that helped set up Israel were Zionists trying to bring about the Rapture.""


I don't think that is completely true. I think at the end of WWII the British had more important things to worry about at home, but were under a lot of pressure from Jews at home, throughout Europe and the US to do something. Many Jews had no place to go and were wondering around, heading to US, and Israel, etc. The British made a few weak attempts to control the process, but really half heartedly given the other issues they were dealing with. A lot of things were happening through out Europe at that time and the Jews saw a solution to their problem. Not saying right or wrong, but targeting Christian British military leaders and referencing rapture is just not accurate.

The two groups have fought over a thousand years, so their was no interest in comprise and trying to co-exist. Same thing we see today. Hardliners on both sides will prevent any resolution. My biggest worry is Iran is crazy enough to Nuke Israel and that my friends will be a disaster like we have never seen before.

Well, we can take comfort in the fact that rational people are in charge and nobody on either side of this believes there has to be a final battle between good and evil, especially not one that has to be waged in an Israeli valley at the foot of Mt. Megiddo...
...because if anyone did it would sure make regional negotiations tricky.

"That is not interfering, Brad, as it is being done with the consent and cooperation of the governments involved"

Consent of radical rulers like in Sudan. Uh ok.

"They have never attempted to project power far beyond their borders as we have been doing. "

LOL

"However, we stand alone in being almost continually involved in combat operations or attempts at regime change by other means."

Agree and it needs to stop. However on the flip side we are usually the first to offer aid/resources when countries have natural disaster. Not saying the justifies anything, but people who hate us dont' mind our assistance during time of need.

Invading Iraqi was wrong. However today the PM suggestion Arab nations withhold oil to penalize US for support of Israel. I say we pull all aid, troops, etc from Iraqi and let them fend for themselves. Same for Pakistan. I think the US thought they could implement a democracy in Iraqi and provide some stability to oil market. I think a better policy is to let them fight among themselves. In a lot of ways we are doing China's dirty work by protecting ship lanes, etc. They benefit far more than we do.

"Neither the Jews nor the Palestinians deserve to be thrown out. Certainly neither group is going to forfeit their claims. And neither should have to."

It is beyond me what legitimate claim a group of European Jews whose ancestors were expelled from Palestine early in the Common Era have to land that has been continuously by Palestinians for centuries and in many cases millennia, and who had absolutely nothing to do with the suffering of the Jews in Europe down thru the ages.
What right did the British have to grant the Jews a homeland in Palestine? What right did the UN have to partition Palestine? What right do the Israelis have to occupy even that part of Palestine that was left to the Palestinians, to deny the Palestinians even the right to drill wells, to expropriate land legally recognized as Palestinian by the UN to build ever more settlements? I'm sorry, Miguel, but I have to disagree. All sides do not have a legitimate beef. The imposition of a European Jewish state on a helpless and innocent population by Western powers to assuage their collective guilt over their roles in the tragedy of the Holocaust and earlier crimes against the Jews is in itself a monstrous crime against humanity. If there is to be a state in what was once the Palestine Mandate, it should be a non denominational one open to all the inhabitants of the area without regard to race, creed, or religion. IMO, that is the only hope for a peaceful outcome to this tragic state of affairs.

Also for the record, BTW. Prior to 1948, the Arabs never persecuted the Jews. Indeed, the Muslim world was the one area where Jews lived in peace and were officially accepted as "Ahl al Kitab" People of The Book and allowed to practice their faith, as were Christians. Jews were completely integrated into the cultural and economic life of the Muslim world for centuries, holding high positions in government and education and participating vigorously in the economy. There were no pogroms in the Muslim world. Period. The were 800,000 Jews in Iraq alone prior to 1948. The largest Jewish community in the Middle East outside of Israel is in....Iran. Just to set the record straight.

""They have never attempted to project power far beyond their borders as we have been doing. "

LOL"

When you stop laughing, maybe you could give me a couple of examples?

"What right did the British have to grant the Jews a homeland in Palestine?"

Well it was their territory that's why. However they did a poor job.

And as you say both groups have a long history of inhabiting the area, so how can one group have no right. Don't buy that.

Interesting as to why things imploded after 1948.

"When you stop laughing, maybe you could give me a couple of examples?"

Projecting power close or far what is the difference. Taiwan, Japan, South China Sea, North Korea, Africa(Sudan, etc).

Not to the extent of the US for sure, but to say the don't project power beyond borders is not accurate IMHO.

Also, Iran in not supporting economic sanctions,

Edited by wufpackfn on 11/16/2012 18:27:21 MST.

I'm sorry, Miguel, but I have to disagree.

I actually agree with you, Tom. I was trying to be diplomatic and not step on toes here. For me it is just not worth it getting riled up and starting a flame war. I used to live with two Jews in Boston who never tired of calling me out on being German and how I murdered countless Jews. Which is really very strange, seeing as, besides the fact that I'm not old enough, I'm half-black and Filipino, and my German grandparents harbored Jewish neighbors in their basement in Hannover during the war (all but one of whom were captured and sent to Bergen-Belsen nearby). I'm just tired of arguing with the Jews about Israel. If people aren't going to reasonable in an argument, what's the point of arguing? I also don't want to make people feel terrible just to prove a point. But most of all, it's pointless arguing with people who don't know very much about the subject they are talking about, or who refuse to make the effort to learn the truth, especially if that truth interferes with their unshakeable views on the topic.

I'd prefer to say that the Jews in Israel today do deserve a place to live, than argue about who came from where and who had the right to be somewhere in the past. Sending those people back to wherever they came from is not the answer anymore, and even if that were tried, think of the atrocities that would occur in trying to implement it, as is being done to the Palestinians today. We have to deal with today's reality. Another thing that most people who don't know Israel or Israelis or have never been to Israel (I haven't), is that the populations of the Jews and Palestinians is not so clearly divided in reality. There are lots of people from both sides living amongst one another. Israelis meet and work with Palestinians everyday; many Palestinians live in Israel itself. Many people are married to those of the opposite side and have children. It is definitely not as separated and constantly full of animosity as the western news would have you believe. The same goes for how many Israelis feel about the impending war on Iran, and vice versa, how many Iranians feel about Israel. This movement, in both Israel and Iran, is hugely popular on both sides.

Perhaps it's time to give history a rest and deal with what is there now, and get people to deal with their emotions. The solution to the problem is actually very, very simple... accept things on the ground level and let go of the past. Learn to live together. What is really difficult is people dealing with their emotions. Dwelling on the past has a way of blowing emotions way out of proportion. But asking people to deal with their emotions... never an easy task.

Edited by butuki on 11/16/2012 19:00:03 MST.

"Perhaps it's time to give history a rest and deal with what is there now, and get people to deal with their emotions. The solution to the problem is actually very, very simple... accept things on the ground level and let go of the past. Learn to live together. What is really difficult is people dealing with their emotions. Dwelling on the past has a way of blowing emotions way out of proportion. But asking people to deal with their emotions... never an easy task."


Very well said Miguel.

+1