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Romney/Ryan 2012
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Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: An outsider on 08/31/2012 10:41:33 MDT Print View

Mike, I would say yes. Fred look no further than Canada....it does work and yes, their version is not pure socialism but a watered down version. And yes we as a country have similar public assistance that they do.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: ?? on 08/31/2012 10:45:50 MDT Print View

The US has had some measure of socialism for close to a century, nearly half the country's existence. All this talk about socialism is coming is nonsense. It is already here, and barring a complete collapse of government, whether by attack, revolution, or bathtub drowning, is here to stay.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: An outsider on 08/31/2012 10:48:29 MDT Print View

Mike, I think we have an oligarchy-tinged democracy that is on the verge of becoming a true oligarchy.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re An outsider on 08/31/2012 10:49:04 MDT Print View

Isn't a democracy a society where the general public can take part in the decision making?
Can anyone with less that $20,000,000 even be heard in the USA?
Proportional representation, and a cap on campaign funding would be a good start.
Vote big business A, or vote big business B.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re An outsider on 08/31/2012 11:06:03 MDT Print View

Several states have provisions that allow for direct democracy via propositions on the ballot. Our proportional representation via Congress is not so bad by the numbers; it not the system itself but the hand of corporations that makes congressional "representation" such a farce.

ETA: for what it is worth, I've noticed a lot more citizen participation in the past year or two than in the previous decade. I think Bush created a lot of depression and apathy. Obama's "hope" campaign and the tea party backlash has led to a lot of constituents of every political persuasion contacting their reps more often and over more issues. On things like ACTA/SOPA this seems to have had an effect. Though the actual influence of corporations probably can't be quantified, there is some evidence that indicates the people can still make themselves heard.

Edited by spelt on 08/31/2012 11:11:40 MDT.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Iceland on 08/31/2012 11:16:41 MDT Print View

I'm very impressed with Iceland. Unlike the US and the UK, they jailed the corrupt bankers after the recent crash, and let the banks fail. It's taken a few years, but they have now paid off their financial obligations to other countries. Their economy is now in growth.
More recently, they held an online discussion to enshrine a new constitution, where folk actually voted online, in real time.
Most folk will never have heard of this, as our masters don't want us to know there is another way of doing things.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Romney/Ryan 2012 on 08/31/2012 11:27:46 MDT Print View

we all have free speech, but some people have so much more than the rest, only the most free of us ever get to be heard.

When asked to place numbers on a line, Most Americans can't go beyond a thousand. 1,10,100,1000. People understand these numbers. Homes,cars.computers,educations,... nobody generally needs to grasp more than the thousand value to handle common life. For low thousands people prefer to stay in hundreds, thirty eight hundred, seventy five hundred... the hundred being something that we encounter far more often than the thousand.

A million is a dream number, and a billion is a made up amount. Most people really have no idea how much they are getting robbed of the value of their labor, and lack the ability to visualize it when given the numbers. None. Even if their hearts are in the right place, the brain isnt used enough here. Honestly, maybe 15-20% of Americans ever question anything they were told about America in their education, at school, at church, or via their favorite personality on television.

To win an election just buy air time with ads using phrases familiar and comfortable to the target audience, and if those phrases get an emotional response without having to think, all the better at gathering support.

America is the best country on earth. We have a flourishing model democracy that was designed by the greatest men who ever lived. Our people have freedom that everyone, everywhere, envies. We have so much more opportunity than every other country anywhere, and that we get attacked for it.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Iceland on 08/31/2012 11:28:18 MDT Print View

Iceland has a population around 320,000. The smallest US state, Wyoming, has a population around 500,000. Not saying it is impossible to do things other ways in the US and UK, but they would have to be done different other ways than small countries like Iceland can get away with. Just for example, education, news awareness, and access to media vary wildly over the US according to location, race, class, and other factors. I would be genuinely terrified to hold a direct vote on amending the US constitution when surveys and studies consistently show the appalling lack of knowledge of Americans on their own political system and current affairs.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Iceland on 08/31/2012 11:33:30 MDT Print View

Spelt (strange calling someone that...) and Cameron, both of your posts are well thought out and reasonable. Nice

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Re on 08/31/2012 11:42:11 MDT Print View

@ Spelt.
You are probably correct. Decent politicians should protect us from our base instincts.
Education is the key.
BTW, i'm not anti USA. I have a lot of US relatives that i enjoy visiting.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Iceland on 08/31/2012 11:44:19 MDT Print View

Thank you, Ken. I always enjoy your input on political topics. (At some point I got in the habit of only using pseudonyms online and now it feels weird to do otherwise.)

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Iceland on 08/31/2012 11:50:00 MDT Print View

Cheer, though I am quite left and others usually don't agree. I just want a better society

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re Re on 08/31/2012 11:53:09 MDT Print View

Contrary to various online accusations, I am not anti-US, either. ;) As cameron says, there is a lot we got and still get right, but what we get wrong we make a real mess of. As the nursery rhyme goes, "When she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was horrid."

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
better society on 08/31/2012 11:59:04 MDT Print View

Same here. I expect we agree on a lot of things.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Socialism on 08/31/2012 14:06:54 MDT Print View

"It is already here"

In many places and various forms, I would certainly agree. Hmmm, I wonder if there is a correlation between... nevermind

Appreciate everyones thoughts on this thread. Hope everyone has a good ole fashion American 3 day weekend.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Third party on 08/31/2012 14:21:11 MDT Print View

"I agree with this... but... look at the bashing the Tea Party has taken."

I agree, it's almost comical. But it's a well-proven media method - look for the craziest members of any organization, put them on camera, everyone thinks they're representative of the group. Same thing happened to the Occupy Wall Street group. Same thing happens to pretty much any group that rails against the status quo, regardless of which side they're on.

"Three things I got out of it. Fiscal responsibility, less gov't (Fed), States Rights."

My understanding as well as far as a broad platform. Of course you have folks who align with Tea Partiers who also hold other views, so those views get mixed up into the mash and then, well, see above.

"nor does letting the states work out more of their own problems like the founders envisioned."

Agreed. There is certainly a role for the federal government, but that role has gotten so out of hand and bloated over the years that we don't much resemble what our founding fathers seemed to envision.

When I'm having fun in office discussions, I like to say that when it comes to solving this country's problems, those who tend to lean toward the left seem to believe in 'we, the government'. Those who tend to lean toward the right seem to believe in 'we, the people'. Hmmm, we, the people. Where have I heard that before? ;-)

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re Re on 08/31/2012 14:27:58 MDT Print View

nm shouldn't get involved..

Edited by MAYNARD76 on 08/31/2012 16:23:21 MDT.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Different strokes on 08/31/2012 14:37:26 MDT Print View

"When I'm having fun in office discussions, I like to say that when it comes to solving this country's problems, those who tend to lean toward the left seem to believe in 'we, the government'. Those who tend to lean toward the right seem to believe in 'we, the people'. Hmmm, we, the people. Where have I heard that before? ;-)"

Wow. That is 180' different from here in Scotland Doug.
'We' look to the people to defeat the right wing government. Also, we are in the middle of an independence struggle to free Scotland from the clutches of the neoliberal UK.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Different strokes on 08/31/2012 14:44:30 MDT Print View

...by the people for the people...

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Different strokes on 08/31/2012 14:55:59 MDT Print View

Mike, if you don't mind me asking ....what are your feelings about Scotland becoming their own country. I have friends on Glasgow and they're kind of approaching this idea with caution and some cynicism