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Diane Pinkers
(dipink) - M

Locale: Western Washington
Leg Cramps on 08/07/2012 13:58:56 MDT Print View

I have been having some really, really fierce leg cramps when I backpack--to the point of having to shoot out of the tent and stand up to get them to subside. I haven't had any issues that I can recall just on day hikes, mostly just when backpacking. Last time, it was on a 7.5 mile hike up to Royal Basin in the Olympics, with 2650' elevation gain--most of it at the end. That one, I had cramps in my calves, my shins, my arches and the tops of my feet--I couldn't get away from it! Finally just got up and walked around, and that took care of it.

Not stretching? Not hydrating enough? Not enough potassium? Other?

I'm going on a 6-night outing in 3 weeks, and I'd really like to get some sleep while I'm out!

Edited by dipink on 08/07/2012 13:59:31 MDT.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
All of the above? on 08/07/2012 16:42:30 MDT Print View

...or any of the above? It could be any of those- clearly you already have some idea of things you can try to void the problem. Especially if you're deconditioned and the only exercise you get is the occasional hike, you might just need to get in better shape. Sure, stretch and take some salty snacks or sports drink with you and see if that helps. (Not just potassium.)

Edited by acrosome on 08/07/2012 16:43:39 MDT.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Leg Cramps on 08/07/2012 17:00:06 MDT Print View

Diane,
A little suggestion on how "all of the above" work together.

1) Over hydrating with only water flushes out potassium.

2) or intentionally flushing water out of the system by means of a diuretic such a coffee or Pamabrom (ingredient in Midol) also flushes out the body's Potassium.

3) either way, low potassium and low salt will result in leg cramps.

4) Potassium in a banana is better absorbed by the body than by pill form. The pill form can be a perscription high dose or multi-vitamin, but check with your doctor on the ritual for max absorption. For my dad he has to take the Po pill while upright not laying down. Weird huh.

5) Also any other medication you may be on, can cause cramps, such a BC pills, or anti-depressants.

6) smoking cig has negative results on depriving oxygen from muscles.

7) blood clots in the muscles.

8) outside temperature, can affect the elasticity of the ligaments and muscles, so keeping your muscles warm by means of clothing or stretching, can help prevent cramping.

9) check with your doctor, may be you need a blood thinner such as low dose Asprin, or mega-dose of pain killer Tylenol.

Watch for the simple stuff first, at if you don't have any luck, check with a doctor before messing with medications.

Angus A.
(mangus7175) - F

Locale: http://theshadedtrail.blogspot.com
Re: Re: Leg Cramps on 08/07/2012 18:50:29 MDT Print View

The above advise is great. I get cramps too when hiking over 10 miles in a day, However, this is because I AM out of shape :)

Anyone know if taking magnesium pills help at all? Anyone take them when hiking?

Diane Pinkers
(dipink) - M

Locale: Western Washington
conditioning and potassium on 08/07/2012 23:05:36 MDT Print View

Well, definitely my conditioning this year is less than it has been--work has been intense and I'm so exhausted that I don't want to get up early to work out on the treadmill.

I do drink a lot, and I find that when I'm getting fatigued, often eating Gu Chomps really helps. I don't like all the sugar in Gatorade, so I've been carrying Nuun tablets and adding 2 tabs to 20 ounces of water--but looking at the label, they have very poor amounts of potassium!

I like dehydrated bananas, and was wondering if the potassium amounts survive the dehydration process. Also, how much banana do you have to eat to get enough? Any other suggestions for potassium supplement?

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Dried Bananas on 08/08/2012 01:25:25 MDT Print View

Dehydrated bananas have all their original potassium in them. Dehydrated food can lose some volatile chemicals, but not any minerals.

Trader Joe's is a good source of dried bananas with no additives. "Banana chips" in the "health" food section of the supermarket have a lot of oil on them. Usually a bad thing, I suppose it may add desirable calories for a BPer.

Edited by DavidinKenai on 08/08/2012 01:26:25 MDT.

Stephen P
(spavlock) - F

Locale: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Dried Bananas on 08/08/2012 02:23:56 MDT Print View

I thought they would keep some of their mineral value as well...until I finally bought some and read the label.

TJ Banana chips (all relevant nutritional facts):

Calories: 160
Serving Size: 13 pieces (30g)
Total Fat: 11g (16%)
- Saturated Fat: 10g (48%!!)
Total Carbs: 13g (4%)
- Fiber 1g (4%)
- Sugars 9g
Calcium 8%
Iron 2%

No potassium. Commercially processed banana chips are much different than if you do them at home. These guys are dipped in coconut oil and cane juice.

I wonder if the potassium is retained if you dry them yourself??

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: conditioning and potassium on 08/08/2012 03:46:58 MDT Print View

Hi Diane. You can make drinks over the course of the day with a small, I mean small, amount of lite salt. I would guess about 1/8tsp or about 2 shakes per half liter bottle will be *plenty*. I mix 3:1 (salt:litesalt) or 25% in my regular salt shaker.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Electrolytes on 08/08/2012 06:20:30 MDT Print View

I make my own electrolyte mix out from 41g of Morton Salt Balance (lite salt) and 108g of Calcium/Magnesium Complex. This makes 100 servings and can be added to any food or drink or put into empty capsules. I used to have major problems with cramping when I laid down for bed. It would start at my feet and work its way up. I only had this happen once or twice on my thru hike and those were on resupply legs when i didn't have any of the electrolyte capsules or my Malto mix with the electrolytes mixed in.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Electrolytes on 08/08/2012 07:11:12 MDT Print View

Greg,
I know where to find Mortons Lite at the supermarket, but where do I look for the Calcium/Magnesium Complex Powder?

Thanks

Edited by greg23 on 08/08/2012 07:27:38 MDT.

Diane Pinkers
(dipink) - M

Locale: Western Washington
Bananas on 08/08/2012 08:35:07 MDT Print View

I home dry my own bananas--can't stand banana chips, they're nasty. Eating the chunks I dry at home is like eating candy. When I'm getting really tired, though, eating isn't always something I feel like I can do, so I think I need something liquid that isn't too sugary. I have calcium/magnesium capsules at home, and wondered about using them too. Maybe if I combine the Nuun tablets for flavor, and spike it with the lite salt and some calcium/magnesium, that would help.

A friend of ours who is a failed Appalachian Trail hiker said that tonic water would help, because of the quinine. He claimed he got that tip off of Whiteblaze. Any notion whether that works?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Calcium Magnesium Complex on 08/08/2012 09:42:25 MDT Print View

Greg,
You can find it at any nutrition store that has a large selection. The powder is a bit harder to find than caplets or pills but it is all over the net. This is the product here. http://www.drugstore.com/now-foods-calcium-and-magnesium-powder/qxp320068

One other note.. The ratios that I used in the recipe above mimick Hammer Endurolytes. If I remember correctly one of my servings is equal to three of their capsules.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
potassium & electrolytes on 08/08/2012 13:53:24 MDT Print View

Diane,

Potassium
I did a quick search for Potassium Rich Foods, and guess what? funny thing... there's a website called just that.

http://PotassiumRichFoods.com/potassium-rich-foods-list/

Also look into WebMD and Wiki to get another opinion.


Electrolytes
Gatorade does have a lot of sugar. For a while I would mix 32 oz of Gatorade in a 100 oz CamelBak, so basically water it down 1:2 ratio.

But now I start my morning with a big spoon of Nutella. I just brew black ice tea without sugar, and get my salts from pretzels.

Edited by RogerDodger on 08/08/2012 13:54:56 MDT.

Jim L
(bmafg) - M
Cramps and electrolytes on 08/09/2012 14:48:46 MDT Print View

A few years ago I cycled the hills around Austin, Texas every Saturday all summer. I suffered ferocious cramping until I started using Nuun tablets (http://www.nuun.com/). No sugar - so no sticky mess. Dissolve very easily in water. They worked extremely well for me.

YMMV
Jim

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Leg Cramps on 08/09/2012 17:11:46 MDT Print View

S-Caps are awesome for cramps; you can find them online. But my guess would be, in the situation you describe, that your cramps have nothing to do with hydration or electrolyte levels. You can also get cramps from over-use, which I think is the more common cause. Especially when you go up 2600' in 7 miles. Unless you do that every day.

Harald Hope
(hhope) - M

Locale: East Bay
red wine too on 08/10/2012 17:44:20 MDT Print View

A relative who is a nurse also reminded me recently that red wine, some types, can cause cramps. Something I confirmed while socially imbibing red wine, just to be polite, after a day or two of that (usually don't drink it, don't like it), woke up with the worst leg cramp of my life, one that made me actually yell in pain, ripped muscles, was sore for days.

But I think OP has the causes pretty much right, not enough water, not enough potassium, and no stretching.

give the above a try.

I'm not sure I'd trust the trader joe's nutrients listing for dried bananas, I'd do my own research into that and see how potassium does under drying. Home dried are probably going to be better, that's usually the case, but that's becuase usually you start with better stuff and dry it better.

http://www.askpedia.com/q/11E59/Do_dried_bananas_have_the_same_potassium_as_fresh_bananas

no idea of the info quality of the source, but potassium is a mineral I believe, and won't go away if you pull the water out of something by drying, at least it doesn't seem like it would.

So I'd ignore the labels, though buying bulk from health food stores is probably a better idea for pretty much all dried or whole foods.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: red wine too on 08/10/2012 21:59:41 MDT Print View

Wine in general has preservatives such as sulfates and sulfites, depends on the wine and vinters. Dont want to start another heated debate.

But some people, have adverse reaction, and it shows up as either headaches or cramps. Again back to how much your body is dehydrated.

Bananas.
The store bought ones have been sliced and acid lemon bleached washed to keep them yellow. More appealing to consumers.
I tried to dehydrate banana chips, they were tasty but brown black ugly, no one wanted to touch them. So the Po mineral may have been reduced by the acid bath from the store bought dehydrated bananas.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Leg Cramps on 08/11/2012 00:05:53 MDT Print View

It isn't just potassium that's needed, but a balanced mixture of sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium that is needed. I suggest checking the ingredients of the oral rehydration salts used in medicine and try to find something with the same proportions. However, without some kind of flavoring, just rehydration salts--or a home-made substitute--isn't very appetizing.

A few years ago, I started using a powdered sports drink mix, Vitalyte (formerly known as Gookinaid) and mix it half the recommended strength. I can't stand Gatorade (which contains high fructose corn syrup the last time I looked) and Vitalyte is a lot less sugary. It has a mild citrus flavor which I like (there are other flavorings, too). It not only seems to prevent cramps (although not sore muscles!), but it also makes me feel stronger and better hydrated at the end of the day. Until I started using it, it always seemed that the water I drank just went in one and and out the other and I was still thirsty. Now I feel that my thirst is more satisfied and I don't have to "go" quite as often.

BTW, the symbol for potassium is K. (I looked it up to be sure since it's almost 60 years since my college chemistry class.)

Edited by hikinggranny on 08/11/2012 00:15:48 MDT.

Robert Blean
(blean) - MLife

Locale: San Jose -- too far from Sierras
No agreement on proportions on 08/11/2012 03:10:44 MDT Print View

I recently tabulated the carbs and electrolytes provided by a dozen endurance drink products, including Vitalyte. Both amounts and proportions are all over the map, although each contends it has the "ideal" mixture.

For example, Vitalyte has the least Ca and Mg of any of them -- much less than most.I'm not criticizing Vitalyte -- just noting that its proportions are quite a bit different than, say, Hammer Endurolytes.

As another example, several of those I checked have chloride included, while the rest do not. Some say chloride is important, others disagree.

If you are trying to do a home made version, how should you decide which brand of endurance drink to copy amounts and proportions from? How exact do you have to be? From what I read the human body is pretty adaptable if you train with what you will use when you are serious about pushing.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: No agreement on proportions on 08/11/2012 04:48:38 MDT Print View

For leg cramps it all depends on how fast you are loosing electolytes/trace elements.
I don't ever use gatoraid full strength. Two weeks ago, paddling/hiking in 95F heat, I could have used some, though.

Trace elements, zinc, manganese, etc. are just that. Even if you loose half of them they continue to work. Though I suspect they do reduce your performance slightly, I seriously doubt that you will get sick from this loss for a day of sweating. Even two is probably not important. A week, yes, you may notice a little performance drop off. Mostly, these are found in wild water, though. So, just keep drinking water and they will be replaced to sustainable levels. Not all are gotten through water, though. But a single vitamin per day will cover you there. Cramps are usually caused by 1) dehydration 2)overuse of muscles 3) lack of NaCl. These are the big three. Even potasium is down on the list after the top three.

Water: Drink more and more often. Blood is composed of a lot of fluids besides red blood cells. This carries a good proportion of your oxygen. Removing this will decrease oxygen to cells, leading to cramping. Slightly over hydrating will actually allow you to carry more oxygen to the muscles...Drink when climbing or hiking.

Lactic acid, is built up in cells as part of working them. This is caused by working a muscle without enough oxygen and is a way for your body to burn more glucose to make cellular energy without oxygen. Not bad, you body knows how to deal with it, but, runners and other athletes may need to deal with it quicker. This eventually causes cramping. It hangs around in the cell waiting for more oxygen to be burned...recovery mode. Without large amounts of oxygen, it stays in your body to be processed later. It makes you feel tired after 4 hours of running on a trail. Or 1 hour of hiking if you are not in "shape." Muscle aches, cramps are symptoms... overuse, generally. Often stiffness in the morning, or lack of "zip" in the morning is ascociated with this, too. Up to 36 hours in the body.

NaCl (table salt) is perhaps the most important electrolyte by about 20:1. All are important, but salt is necessary for proper nerve function. Sodium is basically the nerve component. This is maintained at specific levels in nerve endings, and if in short supply, can cause misfiring. You get cramps, or, worse. It effects all nerves.

Much of this is simple high school biology from 50 years ago, so, don't pick it apart...I was also told 50% of what I was being taught was wrong. It's just an overview of the top three reasons.

I highly recommend a simple shake of salt into your drink when hiiking. If you are really working hard, maybe...maybe two. It will add water and salts to your systems in 4-5 minutes. Sugar (glucose/dextrose) is needed, soo, some sugar is OK, also. Table sugar is complex polysacharide(sp?), usually sucrose, and takes about 5-15 minutes to break down in your digestive system. Take a 5 minute break, eat a little. The body knows what to do.

I also use Litesalt in about a 25% ratio. Basically, this is because it helps with nerves and circulation a bit. Not much, but it is easy to insure enough. It supplies potasium. Too much and you can get sick. Potasium is highly toxic in large amounts, but it is needed for nerve function.

This is the formula I have used for many years. 3 parts table salt, 1 part lite salt in the salt shaker. 1 dash per 500ml of water. Coupled with a vitamin (with trace minerals) in the morning and this will work to stop most cramping. Not fatigue, but cramping. IFF you are working hard, add two tablespoons of glucose. It helps when your liver cannot produce enough to supply your body. A tablespoon of cider vinegar works, or other acidic stuff (Vitamin C, etc.) All in a 500ml bottle. This is the old farmers drink I got from my grandfather 50 years ago out haying. It works.