CCF Pads; Coming Soon
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samuel smillie
(sam_smillie) - F

Locale: central canada
international shipping (canada) on 10/04/2012 12:50:54 MDT Print View

Hi Lawson,

I'm really interested in ordering a couple of pads but wondering about the progress on reducing international shipping costs cause that's the only thing holding my itchy trigger finger back.

Thanks, Sam

Ryan Wiley
(huskerhiker) - F

Locale: So Cal
3/4 or 1 on 10/04/2012 14:40:08 MDT Print View

I would be interested in a 3/4 and 1. Any estimates on what a convoluted pad does in terms of weight and r-value for the same thickness compared to a non-convoluted?

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Update on 10/05/2012 10:56:31 MDT Print View

I agree there is a crazy number of posts especially when you consider what the product is. I agree that a sub 1oz woven dyneema would generate some sort of world record. If this one has 200, then I am sure it would be at-least one billion haha... Thanks again for everyone's feedback, support and business : )

When I added the 1/4" and 1/2" pads I had some concerns regarding shipping costs. As you know I currently don't charge on orders over $10 and I have been thinking of going to free shipping on all orders with no minimums. But as feared, shipping these two sizes have proven more costly then I originally figured so I am going to have to raise the price on the 1/4" and 1/2" pads.. I hate to do this but the only other option would be to change my shipping policy which is something I do not want to do. With that said, there is only 10 1/2" pads and 20 1/4" pads left.

Thanks,
Lawson

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Added Torso Length on 10/10/2012 19:10:01 MDT Print View

Added Torso Length. 24" x 48" x 1/8" $7.95

Edited by Mountainfitter on 10/12/2012 09:38:03 MDT.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
3/4" pads on 10/10/2012 19:19:20 MDT Print View

When are the 3/4" pads comming in? My old NightLite(non torso length) is getting due to be replaced.

Frank H.
(porker110) - F

Locale: California
3/4" on 10/10/2012 21:23:47 MDT Print View

I would also be interested in a 3/4" pad.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
1" Pads on 10/11/2012 08:19:11 MDT Print View

I am working on a 1" convoluted pad right now. At 20" x 72" my prototype/sample pad weighs 18oz. I plan to run them in full length at 24" x 74" which will weigh around 22oz and a torso length at 24" x 48" will weigh 14.5oz. Now I realize this is heavier then other ccf pads but they can be used as a stand alone pad that will never pop or go flat. Only issue is rolling it up. Its pretty HUGE..

Edited by Mountainfitter on 10/12/2012 09:37:21 MDT.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: 1" Pads on 10/11/2012 09:18:30 MDT Print View

Yeah, 1" would be too big. The older NightLights were about 6-7oz for a 20x70 pad. I wouldn't be interested for more weight than aboyt 8oz.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Different Kind Of Foam on 10/11/2012 10:04:15 MDT Print View

Using the current foam, 8oz would be impossible to hit for a full size convoluted EVA type foam pad even at 1/2" thick. GG must of been using a different kind of foam because no foam manufacturer in the world can make an EVA foam that low of a density.. That said, there really isn't much difference in weight between a 1/2", 3/4" or 1" convoluted foam because the base thickness and the base size of the convolutions are the same.. The only thing that changes is the peak height. In a 1" foam the peaks are taller which really helps for comfort and added R value. I hope this makes sense..

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Different Kind Of Foam on 10/11/2012 10:43:31 MDT Print View

OK, Thanks. The older NightLites were some sort of nitrogen impregnated CCF. They *did* flatten with use over a couple years, hence, my need. GG no longer sells these, BTW. The ones they had were also quite heavy at about 10-11oz.

I believe these were about 1/4" thick at the valley and 3/4" at the peaks. Nesting two together gave about 1" thick for a 21"x19-3/4" pad. They were not cut square, though, so I would loose a little making up a mid pad, about 53+" after seaming, fanfold. A few strips of duct tape worked to hold it together. Total was about 7oz or so for R2+. I believe the old spec was about R2.4, but it would squash down a bit.

Note that the convoluted pads are actually a bit warmer than the spec's say. The "bumps" act like small "loft pockets". Maybe R2.4 is a good number.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Nitrogen on 10/11/2012 11:41:50 MDT Print View

Nitrogen and cross linking are both bi-products of the foaming process in all plastic foams and sponge rubbers. It was probably a lower density 100% PE foam with no EVA. This would be the reason it had more compression set (went flat). That said, the 1" EvaRest convoluted pad also has a 1/4" base. The base is really what adds to the weight. I was trying to reduce the base to 1/8" or even 3/16" but so far no luck. To reduce even more weight, I thought of perforating the valleys with 1/2" holes. It would cut about 2oz for a full size pad which is not bad but I think it would kill the R value so I don't think it would be worth it. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Lawson

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Nitrogen on 10/11/2012 14:00:03 MDT Print View

I sort of doubt that it was polyethylene since this is more difficult to foam. Maybe polypropylene...anyway, in that family, no doubt. I lost about half the thickness over 6 years, so I am really looking for a UL replacemnt. It is difficult to compare, based on a generic name. Clearly, by weight, that was not what I have been using.

I think the 3/8" (avg) value for the convolutions would weigh more. Check my numbers. (3/4 / 2)=3/8" in an even distribution. (Given 2 layes meshing with each other.)

Reducing the weight by drilling 1/2" holes through the PEAKS will do more for lightening weight than through the valleys. You really only loose a little R value, maybe R1/2 or R3/4 for about a 3 ounce savings. Fine for any 3 season pad. I don't use it when temps get much below 30F except to suppliment the NeoAir. In warm weather, it is fine, except in lean-tos...getting old, I guess.

Nick G
(HermesUL) - F
1 inch on 10/11/2012 14:44:03 MDT Print View

Not sure what you mean by 'according to how you use it', but at an R-Value of 6 your 1" foam pad would be the second most thermally efficient pad on the market, according to my R-Value/area density calculations a few weeks ago. Even at an R Value of 4, it beats out any other foam pad around.

The issue becomes, as you mentioned, volume. I'm already starting to think that for winter trips of any length I'm really going to need a larger pack.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: 1 inch on 10/11/2012 14:51:44 MDT Print View

R6??? No, that cannot be correct. A convoluted foam pad of 3/4" only gives an R value of around 2-2.5. Something wrong somewhere... I would expect some measurment error. I am going to guess a high value of R3.5-4, as you say.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Variable on 10/11/2012 22:08:36 MDT Print View

R value with a convoluted pad varies depending on how you use it. If you use the pad right side up by itself it will not trap as much dead air which results in less R value. If you use the pad upside down or under another pad then it will have a higher R value because it will trap more dead airspace.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
R values? on 10/12/2012 07:13:19 MDT Print View

These are nice pads, just too dense(heavy) for my use. I would seriously question the R value of 6 and how you arrived at that number, though.

Most foams will not be rated at R6/in even as a flat sheet. In a convoluted configuration at 1", the 3/4" air space (~R1/in) would degrade it. You are, in effect, saying that for the average thickness of 5/8" will have ~R5.5 after removing the air space. This is the part that doesn't make sense and the part I am questioning.

Some good info on foams from the Dow company:
For standard ETHAFOAM products with a thermal conductivity of around 0.06 W/m.K (0.4 BTU-in/hr-ft2-°F), this results in a thermal resistance (or "R-value") of approximately 1.0 R per centimeter of thickness (2.5 R per inch of thickness), (R = hr-ft2-°F/BTU). See the Technical Data Sheet of your product of particular interest for a more precise calculation.
[back to top]

The relavent link is: http://www.qualityfoam.com/ethafoam-faq

Sorry, I can't really compare exact foams without knowing what you are using.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
R values on 10/12/2012 09:36:39 MDT Print View

Hi James,

The manufacturer of the foam specs R24 for 4"(R6 per inch)for solid foam, so you are right when you say a convoluted pad wont have as much as R value as a solid foam pad. I guess I was thinking solid foam when I wrote the above post when I said R4-6. Not really sure but no matter what R6 for a 1" convoluted pad is being overly optimistic on my part, so I am sorry for the confusion.. That said, I would say R3-4 would be a more realistic number. Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Lawson

Nick G
(HermesUL) - F
R-Value 3-4 on 10/12/2012 09:52:32 MDT Print View

Well, that does seem a little more realistic, but it's really a shame because that means it's not really much better than the 1/2 inch pad. Why can't the world be perfect?

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
convoluted thinking on 10/12/2012 10:21:21 MDT Print View

One thing I have noticed about ridgerest and the convoluted foams is that they trap snow
or rain when used in snow caves bumpy side up. Inside a bivy it is immaterial.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: convoluted thinking on 10/12/2012 12:22:07 MDT Print View

Thanks, Lawton! Yeah, that makes a heck of a lot more sense.

Trapping snow is often caused by melting due to pressure/heat under the pad. Then, it freezes to the pad. More insulataion would help with that. Like condensation, at some temps you cannot avoid it, though. Even the floor of a bivy or tent will do that, too. Note that this same effect is what makes ice skates work, for an easy to understand example.