I was wondering what might be good shell layers for winter (below freezing). I am thinking a windshirt so that you can breath out the perspiration but still block the wind and possibly rain pants because of snow. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Brett, it depends on lots of variables. What kind of below freezing weather do you expect? Are you backpacking, snowshoeing, or cross-country skiing? How much time do you expect to be moving versus camped? Will you be above timber line?

For cross-country skiing in California, we tend to be right around timber line someplace. Skiing gets us generating a lot of heat, so we need to be able to vent all of that off. That means either a highly breathable fabric or else a highly breathable fabric that has a bunch of zips and vents. Further, we tend to fall into the snow, so being well-covered is important.

Here is my rule: If you can stay completely 100% dry, then it isn't difficult to stay warm. That means removing excess layers before you get hot, and it means putting them back on before you get cold.

--B.G.--

I'll tell you what worked really great for me backpacking last winter down to about 20F.

wool base layer: Smartwool t-shirt
lightweight fleece mid: Patagonia R1 hoody
light wind shell outer: Patagonia Houdini
light synthetic puffy vest: REI Revelcloud vest
light face covering: merino wool Buff

I paired this with a fleece hat: Mountain Hardwear Dome Perignon
thin fleece gloves (similar to glove liners)
and nylon shell pants with knee-high gaiters

I kept my gas canister tucked in my vest to keep it warm.

This system worked great for me... I wore all of that the entire time and stayed relatively warm, barely sweated at all, and enjoyed the nice crisp winter air!



I used a Patagonia Down Sweater as my "warm" puffy, but it wasn't warm enough for sitting around. Will be experimenting on that side some more this year.

Edited by skomae on 07/25/2012 00:16:39 MDT.

The weather could be just about anything from 0F to 32F as it usually doesn't get much colder than that around here. This is more just for backpacking as I don't do the other and it is well below the tree line. As it is not going to rain a wind shirt would probably be the best and the rain jacket a bit of overkill probably.

As for Stephen my layering system will be more like a wicking T, Patagonia R2 jacket and a Houdini for walking around and a Montbell Alpine Down Jacket for when I stop.

Edited by bpeugh on 07/25/2012 00:50:47 MDT.

The things which haven't worked are membrane shells (most WP/B jackets other than eVENT, PowerShield, WindStopper, etc). I have used a bunch of different things that have worked well in below freezing. Over the last 12 years shells that have worked well were made from EPIC, Dryskin (provide wind wasn't too strong), Equilibrium (my current favorite), and whatever the Houdini is made from.

Typically I have warn either an Patagonia R.5 or R1 Hoody + windshirt. As the temp drops down toward 0F a thermawrap or wm flash vest was added. The rest of the clothing (when moving) has been either a pair pants made from dryskin material or light weight base + hiking pants... most recently the BPL thorfore pants, sometimes a wind pro fleece hat,and power stretch gloves.

--mark

My current winter shell clothing is:

Pants: Marmot Scree softshell (nylon)
Gaiters: Rab Hispar eVent
Jacket: eVent Packa (pack cover part of this is silnylon)

I backpack mainly in Ohio and the mountains of West Virginia, but I also used this in the UP of Michigan with night/morning temps down to 10F. The Packa worked well to block wind with reasonable breathability as long as I used the pit zips and front zipper to ventilate appropriately. My back seemed to be a little more sweaty due to the non-breathable silynlyon pack cover part. I think I'm going to go with a non-membrane softshell for next winter though, something like the Patagonia Guide jacket. I think a windshirt would work ok too, but my guess is that a polyester weave material would be more breathabile once temps hit around 0-10F because the nylon would tend to ice up and block vapor transfer.

I've been using wool or fleece gloves without a shell, but I'd recommend some type of shell to help keep them dry. Without that, they collect snow, and then it melts. Simiarly, gaiters are critical to shell your lower legs, which will be constantly in the snow.

Edit:
Also, keep in mind that there are two types of cold:
wet-cold: temps at or above 15-20F
dry-cold: temps below 15F

In general, in wet-cold conditions, treat all precipitation like rain. In dry-cold conditions, breathability is the emphasis because snow isn't going to melt, and if it does, the air is dry enough that dries quickly or freezes on the outer shell layer.

If you dress for wet-cold in dry-cold conditions, you'll have breathability challenges. If you dress for dry-cold in wet-cold conditions, you'll get wet from precipitation or falling into the snow. It's much easier to stay dry in dry-cold conditions.

Edited by AndyF on 07/25/2012 09:14:56 MDT.

Since it seems this topic has expanded some I thought I would help to gain some background to clarify things. I really have no desire to summit or go really high in the elevation nor do cross country skiing or snow showing. The equipment that I have is the same stuff I also use to get around town.


My glove system includes a pair of OR WindPro fleece Omni Gloves, a pair of OR fleece PL-300 Mitts, and a pair of OR Mt. Baker Modular Mitts that have both a insulated mitt and glove insert. The shells are mainly for snow and light rain as I don't expect them to breath that well nor be that waterproof. The insulated inserts are mainly for below freezing.

My headwear system includes an OR hat similar to their Wind Warrior hat but made out of Wind Pro, an OR Wind Pro Balaclava and a Nunatak OR Balaclava which may be a bit of overkill when you include the hood on many of my jackets. I am also switching to a visor and bandana head covering system once I find a cheap large bandana.

My lower system includes a pair of REI share pants, some Patagonia Expedition weight tights, Ex Officio boxers, a trash compactor bag rain skirt for above freezing and a pair of GoLite Tumalo Pertex Shield rain pants possibly for below.

For my feet right now I am using some Columbia Coolmax liner socks, Darn Tough medium weight wool socks, Redhead (Bass Pro Shops) heavyweight wool socks, homemade eVent waterproof socks that come up over my socks and my Chacos. I am thinking of adding some VB silnylon socks.


I would like to better check out rain and shell systems but it has only rained here 4 times in the last few months and none for greater than 30 minutes. I have become wary of some of the wpb rain wear because of its less than ideal compromise of breathing and being waterproof. After talking with some people I like Roger Caffin's idea of making something like a cross between a Packa and Anitgravitygear's silnylon rain jacket that is full zip and big enough to vent and pull your arms in. I also would like to try out my Golite Chrome Dome umbrella with my trash bag rain skirt and either my Houdini or my homemade Momentum wind shirt.

I have switched my layering system over so that I am using a roughly 50poly/50cotton very long sleeve dress shirt. For cooler temps I am putting using some Visa Endurance poly T's with them. When it gets colder than that I am putting on a Patagonia R2 fleece jacket and can layer that under a wind shirt or possibly the big silnylon jacket I mentioned above. For below freezing I can don my Montbell Alpine Down jacket when I stop which should keep me good down to 0F.

I am also starting to be more wary of using down and synthetic in condtions that might be wet and am looking for other alternatives.

I think what I am hearing from you guys is that I really don't need the rain pants and that a trash compactor bag rain skirt might be enough for above freezing and that pair with some tall waterproof footwear/gear would be enough in the snow.

I am also thinking about VB and am thinking of trying it out with thicker plastic bags for hands and feet and maybe my Golite Tumalo Pertex Shield jacket and pants as they are not that breathable until I can make some for my own out of silnylon.

I am thinking about getting rid of my rain jacket, rain pants and Montbell UL Down Jacket as I don't think they are that useful as other items can be.

Edited by bpeugh on 07/25/2012 11:24:54 MDT.

for winter (w/ no chance of rain) a wind shirt is the only shell I use, the DWR is good enough to shed snow, it effectively blocks wind, but still breathes- my wind shirt choice is the Houdini

for my legs I use a soft shell pant- good DWR, blocks wind, breathes- Rock Guides are what I use

shell layer for for my hands- OR Endeavor mitts

Patagonia Rock Craft are supposed to be the new Jackalopes.

I myself have to have waterproof pants with full zip sides, I use MH cohesion shell pants. For a top shell I use a golite kenai, pit zips are a must. When snowshoeing I zip everything open- venting and keeping dry is important to me.

I think that is correct, Rock Crafts have replaced Rock Guides- quality soft shell that can be worn in all seasons :)

Does a wind shirt hold up well in the winter while it might be snowing heavily or would a wpb jacket be more useful?

your choice of white/light colored synthetic base layer long sleeved shirt. i have 3 that i pick from. next on top is a 3/4 zip polar stretch/R1 style hoodie followed by a hooded wild things windshirt. i sometimes sub in an old patagonia bicycling vest that has a windstopper fleece front a regular fleece back (covered by pack anyway) for the polar fleece hoodie or replace the hoodie and windshirt with a hooded arcteryx atom lt jacket. for my lower half, depending on conditions, some combination of gym shorts, running tights, soft-shell pants and wind pants.

seldom do i bring anything that's considered waterproof. my windshirt and windpants in epic fabric and soft-shell pants are sufficently water resistant for most of the rain i will encoutner. i will sometimes bring a bomber wild things event shell jacket, but it's rare.

for when stopped, depending on conditions i will bring an atom lt, patagonia micropuff, wild things belay jacket or ff volant. for my lower half, if it's going to be really cold i will bring a pair outdor research neoplume pants.

for my head it's typically a boonie hat, turtle fur headband or a us marines issued thin fleece hat.

for my hands the combinations and permutations are pretty extensive, but similar to those here that use some form of liner and shell alone or in combination.

Here in New England I always have to carry a hard shell because our weather is so variable, you could possibly see -20, snow, and rain or wet snow on the same trip. Toward the end of last winter I switched to a Rab Boreas from my Houdini for my primary active shell. So far in the short time I have used it I love it. Worn with a light wool tee it is so far the best winter layer I have used. Not completely windproof but good enough and it wicks and breathes. While my physiology will not allow me to stay completely dry if I am moving at all this is coming the closest.