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Canon EOS M (Mirrorless)
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Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/21/2012 02:41:57 MDT Print View

We'll know more about this monday, but it looks like a really good backpacking/adventure cam from what I can tell. Super compact with an aps-c sensor and a promising wide prime pancake lense.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/more-pictures-of-the-canon-eos-m-mirrorless-cam-including-new-18-55mm-lens-pic/

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/23/2012 15:28:45 MDT Print View

First "official" samples here.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eosm/

A conservative design, although quite small and light and metal-skinned. NEX shooters are probably asking, "All that waiting, for this?" Canon lens owners will be somewhat more motivated to give it a look.

Cheers,

Rick

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/23/2012 16:04:42 MDT Print View

None of the mirrorless cameras seem to show samples of sports or fast-moving wildlife. I suspect that must be due to lack of phase detection autofocus.

--B.G.--

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/23/2012 17:55:07 MDT Print View

The specs of this thing indicate it houses both CDAF and PDAF, with the latter integrated into the imager, ala the Nikon 1 system. Effective with slr lenses? I guess we have to wait to find out. I also wonder whether the battery has enough current to drive big slr focusing motors.

Cheers,

Rick

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/23/2012 18:01:05 MDT Print View

Most mirrorless cameras have a high battery consumption (as compared to a DSLR), and that is because the rear display is lit up all of the time for Live View. Some DSLR cameras can be switched into Live View, and then the battery consumption goes up as well.

Personally, when I am out on the backpacking trail for a week, I don't like to be carrying lots and lots of camera batteries. I almost never use Live View anything except for video, and that is only once per year.

--B.G.--

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Canon OES M - not even remotely interesting on 07/23/2012 20:29:55 MDT Print View

Besides large sensor, there is very little interesting about the camera. It is supposed to be a competitor to something like Sony NEX 5n, but it is same price and lower spec.

- Another line of lenses to buy, using with full frame or APC-S lenses makes it bulky and from what i can see not very comfortable in hand.

- Slow burst mode (4.3fps first frame AF, 3 fps with AF for every shot). Sony's mirrorless will do 10 with first frame AF.

- lack of physical controls (makes shooting "blind" and quickly adjusting settings by feel impossible)

- touch screen interface (big thumbs down for me) - my fat fingers and poor coordination makes it hard to use

- no built-in flash

- no in body IS


I would rather go with a smaller and more advanced 4/3 system like Olympus/Fuji, Sony RX100, Sony NEX 5n/7...

Canon was getting hurt by mirrorless and 4/3 eating into entry level APC-S DSLRs and high-end P&S like G1X and instead of making a decent camera to compete in the segment, they made a half baked point and shoot.

FAIL imho

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/23/2012 20:44:22 MDT Print View

Most people buy emotionally not logically.
Therefore most Canon owners will buy Canon as most Nikon owners buy Nikon and so on.
To elaborate , if you are a Canon fan that goes on and on about the superiority of the brand (not confined to Canon fans...) features/benefits come well after brand loyalty.
Franco

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/29/2012 18:35:40 MDT Print View

BTW...
"Noneof the mirrorless cameras seem to show samples of sports or fast-moving wildlife"

Change is the only constant...
See some Pana action shots here :
http://www.lumixlifestyle.co.uk/london-2012/community-sports-gallery-3/taking-it-to-the-edge/#galleryimage

and a shot I stole from DPReview from a guy taking shots of greyhounds for the first time with his Olympus OM D.
OMD action shot
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=41620334
(you can see a larger image and several other shots at DPReview)

Franco
(sorry, nothing to do with this Canon...)
BTW Rog,
Go to that DPReview link and click on those dogs pecs there to see a larger size...

Edited by Franco on 07/31/2012 17:00:20 MDT.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/30/2012 15:38:29 MDT Print View

Hi Franco.

The new Oly OMD E5 with a battery and no lens - 15.1oz

My old Oly E-410 DSLR with a battery and no lens - 15.5oz

Plus ca change...

I know which viewfinder I'd rather be sizing up fast moving wildlife through too. Especially using a quick twist manual focus zoom like the old Tokina I used for this shot.

.Tern

Think of the lens you can buy with the spare change; Zeiss, Leica... or a couple of voightlander primes ;-)

Edited by tallbloke on 07/30/2012 16:34:42 MDT.

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/30/2012 21:06:48 MDT Print View

No fair - not factoring in equivalent lense options, of course those are two fairly different cameras...:)

Nice bird photog.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/31/2012 00:33:37 MDT Print View

Hi James,

fair point. the kit zooms are 0.75oz different (190 vs 210g) in the old camera's favour, which makes it lighter overall (though you get 4x rather than 3x with the new unit (similar reach at tele end, 4mm wider at the short end). If you are being weight concious and just take a pancake prime, the difference is less than an ounce, (you get 35mm rather than 50mm equiv with the newer lens).

A good user review of the new kit zoom here


Different cameras: sure, but the biggest difference is price, and the optical viewfinder on the old E-410, which an action photographer would prefer. They both use a 4/3 sensor, albeit an updated 16mp version in the new camera, but the image quality and dynamic range isn't so different as to justify the extra $1000 for the new camera over a nice second user E-410 IMO.

The new OMD is a super piece of kit if you have the money for it. Personally, I'd take the old E-410 and spend the difference on a couple of top quality second user lenses. The difference in the image quality due to the higher resolution of the newer sensor would be more than offset by the use of a top notch lens in front of the old one.

If you have bottomless pockets, you could have the nice lenses and the new camera, but then you'd be focusing manually anyway and the whizzy new AF system is no help there. In any case, I have no complaints about the speed of the AF on the E-410.

As for the new Canon mirrorless camera (to get back on topic), I'd wait until the wrinkles of the first effort are ironed out in the next model. I hate paying big money to be an unpaid R&D tester. ;-)

Edited by tallbloke on 07/31/2012 01:35:46 MDT.

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/31/2012 11:11:53 MDT Print View

Those are not equivalent lenses...one is weathersealed, has a powerzoom (gimmick for many) and more zoom (as you mention).
An equivelent lense would be the m14-42mm...it is nearly 3oz lighter and much smaller.

"but the biggest difference is price, and the optical viewfinder on the old E-410"
umm,... IBIS, resolution, weathersealing, video cabability. I have an E-620 and an e-pm1. I find at least 1stop extra ISO in the e-pm1....how much would you pay for a 1stop faster lense...what about for every lense you own.
Again you are comparing an entry 4/3 model against in the top end of m4/3. m4/3 has some pretty cheap entry level models. A fairer comparison would be E-410 vs pany g3. Of couse it all depends on what you want out of a camera...simple P&S would surfice for what many want/use a camera for.

"you'd be focusing manually anyway and the whizzy new AF system is no help there"
Not sure exactly what you mean, I use AF almost exclusively on the epm-1 and am happier with its AF than with the E-620 -- though I don't shoot birds or racedogs often, my 2 y.o. is pretty stinking fast:).


I know the 4/3 cameras hit a sweet spot in size/weight/cost/perforance and make a lot of sense for backpacking & I really like the Evolt series. But Mirrorless cameras have quite a bit to offer. I tried the e-pm1 for its price ($450 with lense) increase portability (will fit in a jacket pocket with right lense) and video performance. I have hardly used the 620 since (I do miss the viewfinder at times along with its swivel screen).

As for "back on topic" while I dunno about this new canon...I think it is nice getting canon (along with nikon earlier) into the mirrorless mix...the competetion should really help drive develepement.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 07/31/2012 11:28:32 MDT Print View

It's not especially fair to a half-decade old dslr to compare it against a contemporary high-end mirrorless body, as there's a Kings Canyon-size technology gap between them. The E-410 retains the smallest-dslr ever distinction (likely a perpetual award) and delivers super clean images to ISO200, along with classic Oly colors. All are good things, along with the ability to use the excellent suite of E-series lenses, but that's essentially it. The E-M5 is a vastly more competent camera in every meaningful performance parameter, demonstrating how much the technology has advanced in that time. My E-510 is going to the daughter, presuming she's interested, as I no longer tote it as a backup body.

Where we are today is with cdaf performance that has finally caught up to pdaf—until one gets into the CAF mode that is, where cdaf still lags. This is essentially the final frontier for mirrorless to conquer WRT matching dslrs. We don't yet know what Canon has achieved with their new camera, but should have some idea once formal tests are published. It's just weird to me they have no way to add an EVF to the new body, as that limitation greatly cripples its usefulness outdoors. Backpackers should plan to await the second generation, which is surely in the pipeline already. Unless you're a Canon shooter who wants to leave the dslr body at home strictly for the trimmed weight and size, you'll be cursing the no-tilt back panel and lack of EVF your first time out.

Cheers,

Rick

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 08/01/2012 01:28:44 MDT Print View

James and Rick,

more good points and I agree technology has improved. I compared the lenses which are bundled with the cameras because having just paid for it many people will use the weather sealed 4x zoom rather than additionally buy the older 3x unsealed lens. The in-body IS of the olympus mirrorless range is a big advantage and worth some weight in itself.

I'm just flagging up the fact that budget conscious backpackers can get a very good deal on a second user DSLR which incurs no weight penalty over the latest top end mirrorless package. The E-410 provides a lot of photographic enjoyment and can produce high quality images.

To save some weight and gain an advantage in telephoto capability I've moved on to a second user Ricoh GXR. For pro quality low light work the APS-C sensor/28mm equiv prime lens unit is excellent, and the P10 zoom unit weighs only 6oz and in good light produces very acceptable image quality from its 1/2.3" BSI-CMOS sensor. No other interchangeable system can offer a 10x telephoto capability in such a small and light package. The camera body plus the two lens/sensor units comes to 590g or around 21oz. Because the lens/sensors are all-in-one units you can swap between them easily and quickly without fumbling around with lens back caps while dust threatens to enter the sensor cavity of the camera. A good solution for dusty trails.

Another route to similar stills capability at the same weight would be an Oly E-PM1 and 17mm pancake lens, plus a Canon SX230 compact superzoom. I prefer the Ricoh's rugged build quaility, menu system and EVF capability. Others might prefer the superior reach of the Canon and better video capability of the Olympus. Plus the benefit of having a second camera in case of a failure. A good combo for a couple to buy perhaps.

Cheers

Edited by tallbloke on 08/01/2012 02:49:48 MDT.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Canon EOS M (Mirrorless) on 08/01/2012 11:21:32 MDT Print View

Used digital gear is absolutely the smart path for anybody on a budget/has better things to spend their money on. Digital cameras depreciate like a dropped rock, even the red-dot brand (see: weeping M8 early buyers). Conversely lenses, at least good lenses, hold their value very well indeed.

Cheers,

Rick

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
fast moving wildllife on 08/11/2012 14:11:37 MDT Print View

'None of the mirrorless cameras seem to show samples of sports or fast-moving wildlife. I suspect that must be due to lack of phase detection autofocus."

There are examples out there but the problem is typically not autofocus related. The problem is the viewfinder. The viewfinder stops updating when the camera is actually taking a photo. So if you are trying take a string of photos follow a subject moving left to right you cannot use the viewfinder since it is showing images of where the subject was NOT where it is at the moment. Then end result is you typically fall behind and the subject may not be in the photo.

When the subject is moving toward the camera, mirrorless cameras work fine. but for subjects moving across the image, viewfinder lag is a big problem. Viewfinder lag is not an issue if you are taking a single photo but is a big issue when the camera is set foe continuous shooting.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: fast moving wildllife on 08/14/2012 12:08:30 MDT Print View

"When the subject is moving toward the camera, mirrorless cameras work fine. but for subjects moving across the image, viewfinder lag is a big problem. Viewfinder lag is not an issue if you are taking a single photo but is a big issue when the camera is set foe continuous shooting."

The E-M5 has an optional high-speed (120hz) EVF mode that essentially eliminates any timelag. I'm sure other makers have similar tricks. It also has 9fps with focus locked and 4 fps with tracking focus.

The walls are continuing to fall. The last uncrossed mirrorless frontier is fast telephoto lenses.

Cheers,

Rick