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Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting
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daniel B
(dbogey)

Locale: East Coast
Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting on 07/15/2012 09:23:33 MDT Print View

Just purchased the spinntwinn this week and wanted to test before taking it out. I seam sealed and double checked to make sure no leaks. Was out last night and became toally wet from misting during a storm here in Western Pa. I thought that it could of been the moisture build up from being inside so when I got home today I put my son inside and hosed it down. Needless to say he was getting wet also. I have a few tents one being the TT contrail and I never experienced this. Now I've read that people have taken the SpinnTwinn out in some good storms but never heard of them getting wet while inside their shelter. I figured I'd get a quick response from the list and I'll contact Gossamer Gear tomorrow about this but wanted to get some feedback.

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Misting on 07/15/2012 10:58:30 MDT Print View

I had slight misting only really once in my Spinntwinn. I happened just at the beginning of a cold rain, which would be consistent with condensation forming on it. Otherwise, I have loved my Spinntwinn. The consensus is that the misting is really condensation. But if you have immediate misting when using a water hose, I would be a bit concerned too.

Edited by alexdrewreed on 07/15/2012 11:01:07 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting on 07/15/2012 11:20:05 MDT Print View

From the tests of Richard Nisely, I believe that spinnaker has a hydrostatic head below 1000 mm, which is probably too low to prevent misting in a hard rain. Similar to Epic.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting on 07/15/2012 11:52:32 MDT Print View

And if you hosed it down and it misted, that doesn't seem like condensation

But it's hard to correlate hosing with rain

daniel B
(dbogey)

Locale: East Coast
Misting on 07/15/2012 12:53:54 MDT Print View

It's def not condensation. We have some heavy rains coming today. I'll look at it again

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
re-coat the sucker on 07/15/2012 13:11:20 MDT Print View

Re-coat the most vulnerable top 1/2 or 2/3 of the canopy with a 5:1 mix of odorless mineral spirits to clear silicon caulk and brush it on the pitched tent. This also helps a bit in keeping it from sagging so much when wet.

The floor can be re-coated on the outside as well for better waterproofing. I use a 1 pint plastic bottle for my mix so I can re-cap it and shake it well every 5 minutes. This is the best way I've found to insure it stays well mixed.

IMHO silnylon needs a bit heavier coating than found on most tents and tarps.
If "Never Wet" DWR spray EVER hits the market it may also help keep nylon from wetting out and stretching as much in the rain.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting on 07/15/2012 13:38:02 MDT Print View

Have you talked to Gossamer Gear about this? I'd be interested in their reaction.

My 2009 GG Squall Classic is made of spinnaker but has never misted. Right after I bought it, I tested it with the hose on high pressure for about 45 minutes to make sure I had it properly seam sealed. (I found out the previous year with another tent that it's important to do that test!) I have had it in a number of rains since, although nothing quite as ferocious as my test. Condensation, yes; misting, no.

I understand that it has become harder and harder to find high quality spinnaker fabric suitable for shelter--GG appears to be the only firm left that still uses it. Maybe the time has come that they, too, will have to discontinue it?

daniel B
(dbogey)

Locale: East Coast
Video of misting on 07/15/2012 15:04:51 MDT Print View

Here is a video of the misting and one of what the water looks like from the hose.

I put up my TT Contrail and sprayed the it and did find a leak in the seam but no water comes through the material, so no misting. Sprayed the SpinnTwinn and did get wet. After setting up the SpinnTwinn and letting it sit during the rain today most of my gear was damp from the spray coming through.

I thought I put up a video of myself and my son testing the SpinnTwinn. I really love the size of this and and would love to keep it but wouldn't want to be caught in a heavy downpour especially if the temps were low.


Here are the vids:

Misting
http://youtu.be/kcN5h6RzJCw

Hose spray
http://youtu.be/c-RugMlGJcw

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Video of misting on 07/15/2012 15:44:18 MDT Print View

Maybe exchange it for the sil version?

P. P.
(toesnorth) - F

Locale: PNW
SilTwinn on 07/15/2012 17:10:17 MDT Print View

If I remember correctly, I chose the SilTwinn for two reasons: Misting reported in spinnaker fabric and the noise of the spinnaker fabric.
My SilTwinn does not seem to mist but I don't think it has had really heavy rain for extended periods.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Inside of Spinntwinn getting wet from misting on 07/15/2012 18:01:45 MDT Print View

I agree with the previous posting. Spinnaker is "not quite" too light to make a good tent canopy. The newer stuff has been very bad at waterproofness. For an ounce or two you *can* coat it yourself. About 30:1 mineral spirits (or white gas)and clear silicone calk (good stuff, GE or a good manufacturor.) About 1 hour's time to coat both sides, thouroughlyy working it into the fabric. After it dries, it can stick to itself, apply some plain talc very lightly to aleviate this. It will take a use or two to loose this. But, the thin coat should stop any misting and last about 5-10 years. Some have said 5:1, but this can peel. I use a thinner coat on both sides.

daniel B
(dbogey)

Locale: East Coast
Extra work on 07/15/2012 18:22:10 MDT Print View

I purchased because I read it's waterproof. Don't want to through the trouble of attempting to do the waterproofing myself. Since I've seam sealed already I don't think I can even exchange this. I'll have to contact GG and see what the options are. Are there any cuben tarps the same size ?

Edited by dbogey on 07/15/2012 19:24:58 MDT.

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
wow, on 07/15/2012 20:17:59 MDT Print View

that didn't appear to be much water pressure...

I had a gg spinnshelter that survived a few storms, much tougher than that -- maybe yours is from a bad batch of fabric?

FWIW, i set up my golite shangri-la 2 in one of the crazy storms that came through east tn yesterday. In the heaviest wind and rain I had a light misting (very heavy rain and moderate wind). I only noticed when I was right next to the fabric. If I layed down, I couldn't feel it (maybe the mist was evaporating). This is what I had assumed you were refering to, but clearly diffent.

Good luck with your dealing with GG.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Cuben Tarps on 07/15/2012 20:22:39 MDT Print View

"Are there any cuben tarps the same size ?"

Off the top of my head, I think the MLD Grace Duo and HMG Echo II are likely similiar in size. The BPL Nano Tarp was also quite wide, but you only see those in gear swap now.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
30:1 ?? on 07/15/2012 20:42:05 MDT Print View

@Jaems

Are you sure you mean 30:1 ratio of mineral spirits to clear silicone caulk?

I'd say even 15:1 may be too thin. 10:1 is the thinnest I would likely go for a canopy coating. 5:1 worked very well on my TT Moment.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
sail cloth on 07/15/2012 22:30:54 MDT Print View

Cannot see buying tents with leaky fabric brand new, and then coating them with goop that only makes them heavier, and later peels off. Maybe it is some form of masochistic release too deep to comprehend.

Recently put some Epic Malibu and T-H and one other better quality (~3K HH)silnylon in plastic embroidery loops over pails and went at them with a hose nozzle. Kept narrowing the stream of water until it became a narrow jet about 3/4" in diameter, and put the nozzle within a few inches of the fabric, yet not a drop came through in several minutes.

If the material is not of consistent quality, the seller should test each shelter before putting it in stock. Yes, I want to support small local industries, but they still must earn it.

Here's the link that was recently posted to the spinnaker fabric offered by Prolite Gear and claimed to resist water up to 2 PSI:
http://www.prolitegear.com/base_designs_pro_spinnaker_cloth.html
Good luck.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Warranty on 07/15/2012 23:25:10 MDT Print View

Even if you're unable to 'return' or 'exchange' it after seam sealing it, you should be able to warranty it for a new one. I haven't watched the video, but if the fabric is leaking significantly from the first time you use it then that's not normal.

Patrick Browning
(optimator) - F
Spinn on 07/15/2012 23:53:29 MDT Print View

I've been using my somewhat older OES spinn tarp over my hammock for quite a while now. I've never had any misting, and I've had it out in some pretty sustained heavy rains. Maybe mine is from a real good batch of fabric?

Edited by optimator on 07/15/2012 23:54:11 MDT.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: 30:1 ?? on 07/16/2012 06:21:28 MDT Print View

"Are you sure you mean 30:1 ratio of mineral spirits to clear silicone caulk?

I'd say even 15:1 may be too thin. 10:1 is the thinnest I would likely go for a canopy coating. 5:1 worked very well on my TT Moment."
Eric,
Yeah, well calks can vary in consistency. 5:1 is OK for seam sealing. Working in an outside area, the mineral spirits will evaporate off in about 5 minutes. If applied to a canopy, though, after a year or two of use, it will pull loose, leaving some peel. A thin coating won't do that. If it still leaks after a 30:1 coating inside and out, you can do it again without high weight penalties. Note that the tarp or tent needs to be fairly clean.

Generally 30:1 or 40:1 will do older silnylon, stretched silnylon, or untreated spinnaker. (I prefer my packs to have high water resistance, so, I did this with an old g5 spinnaker also.) High qualty calks require thin dilutions...the point is not to cover the thread and leave tiny "puddles" on the surface, but to fill in between, penetrating any streatched fibers and pores. Any coating on the threads does nothing for water proofness, the thread should be water proof. Too thin, 60:1-70:1 say, may not leave ANY coating outside if it is worked in properly. There is a minimum film thickness that will bond to other things and itself. Calks vary, between 20:1-50:1 is about what I have run into. You can apply this to a small piece of glass to check it. If it spreads evenly, it is good. If it beads up as it dries, it is too thin.

Yes. You can do it with 10:1 but it is real messy. It will require more work to apply evenly, forcing a thinner/stiffer brush, more spreading, and slow going. It gets a bit stickey after a few minutes so this is difficult to use on large areas, like a tarp. 5:1 is nearly impossible to get a fairly even coat without a double roller squeezing excess out...a factory process. 5:1 Mineral Spirits/GE clear silicone calk is about what I use for seam sealing (in a small tube, or, injector.) Thinner and it won't stay in the tube too well. Thinner does nothing to the actual calk. It simply spreads the calk out, then evaporates off leaving the calk to cure.

I have done 5-6 tents and 7-8 tarps with 30:1 (or there about...) For close weaved fabric with some silicone coating (or worn out tarps and tents starting to leak) it just needs to fill in between the tiny pores between threads. A coat outside, worked in with a brush will do that and remove most excess *on* the threads. As it dries it gets stiffer but it may "pop" the filled pores leaving a small open pore. Working it in and doing the other side fills the pores, again, with the brush wiping off most of the excess. The resulting coating is very light, about .3-.4oz per yard. It has filled the pores, insuring no misting, no leaks. It will also bond the fibers in the threads, and, the threads in the weave, making the fabric more durable, generally improving quality. But it will add .3-.4oz per yard weight. For the SpinnTwin, about 60 sqft means ~2oz, This is about what the factory should be adding to fabrics as a siliconized coating. So, the overall weight correctly matches the factory "coating weight." But this means about 30:1 for the mix ratio applied to both sides of untreated fabric, or, old silnylon. Untreated fabric *might* require another coat. Again, the goal is to fill any pores, not coat the surface of the fabric. For untreated fabric, I often go a bit thicker on the mix, but it doesn't really require it. I could add a third coat, but I am lazy and am trying to avoid the third coat.

Ripstop has a larger thread every 1/4" or so. This is a bit more difficult, since the larger thread creats a small build up or "puddle". This means that it has to be applied diagonally(left and right) and worked in a bit more.

For spinnaker it is smooth. A cheap throw away brush (bristle, not foam) about 3" wide works well. Work until it stops bleeding onto the fabric surface. Overlap strokes about 20% or so. Doing both sides will allow the mix to bond with itself through any pores, too. A LIGHT coat can be too light, but doing both sides will insure it seals the fabric. Again, IFF needed, you *can* add a third coat.

Small patches can be applied for burn holes, over small fray holes. To do the patch and the fabric, lay the patch on wet with 100% calk, then carfully brush it down. It must lay flat. Brush off any excess on the other side. About 1"x1" patches can be applied. Do this before coating the tarp. They stay on fairly well, but, they can be peeled off.

I use slightly thicker for floors, again, both sides. Abrasion can wear it off after a couple years or puncture it. UV damaged fabric is still damaged, of course. But, an old tarp coated with WHITE calk will bond it together, and, slow further UV damage. Most white calks are made with titanium white filler/pigment. It blocks some UV. But, it does show. Floors don't need a UV coating, of course. Bonding damaged threads can help with durability.

Usually, tarps treated like this do not stick together after 24 hours of drying time. If it sticks together, the coating was applied too heavily. But, a light dusting of plain talc works to prevent sticking. Unscented, plain old talk...no corn starch.

I tend to err on the side of caution, meaning two, three or four coats of thin mix will do the job, but, not add additional unnecessary weight. Again, if needed, it can simply be recoated with only some lost time. Applying the coating too thick can cause peeling because the bond between the fabric and calk is not as good as the bond in the calk, ie, if the bond was weaker in the calk, it would never peel. Peeling, of course, ruins that area; it could start leaking or misting again. Overall, it is safer to simply thin it out more(30:1) and apply a third coat IFF the first two still mist/leak.

Also, the calk layer is very hydrophobic in comparison to the nylon. Often, most tarps only leak in stress areas (from stretching) or from damage (fraying.) A thin coat will add water repellancy to these areas, without actually filling the pores. More like a very durable water resistance, than a water proof layer.

daniel B
(dbogey)

Locale: East Coast
Returning SpinnTwinn on 07/16/2012 19:51:59 MDT Print View

Contacted GG support and they were great to deal with. I was told that they'll test the material to see what the defect is. It was my understanding that the Spinnaker is waterproof but its what is sprayed on it that makes is repel the water (no misting). I'm guessing the SpinnTwinn I received had some places where the spray just didn't take. Looking forward using the SpinnTwinn and really like the amount of room it provides.