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Tim Cleary
(hempstead)

Locale: Lost
Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 21:21:47 MDT Print View

Hey everyone. I had a question about the etiquette of asking folks on BPL if they would be willing to be beta testers for an incredibly revolutionary product that will change the face of UL backpacking forever. OK, I definitely made that last part up.

Before I go further I will say that I have submitted a question to the BPL admin folks about not messing up their dedication to non-commercial uses of BPL, and I am sure I will hear from them soon, but since it has been a couple of weeks I hope it is not rude to ask the question here. I also didn't find any FAQ type answers, but perhaps I missed something. The odds of this being a commercialized product set are definitely about one in ten bazillion, but I didn't want to cross any clear rules on this front.

The short story: I have some definitely unique, and perhaps even not absolutely horrible design ideas on MYOG gear stuff. Also, I really think it would be cool to have a patent. Even a provisional one. So here is the best case for me: 1) I apply for a couple of provisional patents (already mostly done, this initial part is cheap at least). 2) I recruit some BPL folks to try it out, by sending them working prototypes for free. 3) The idea turns out to be a horrible one,no one would be hurt or anything, just potentially annoyed at carrying a bad idea out onto the trail. 4) The patent office grants my cheap patent because it is just a horrible idea, hence no one has thought it worth pursuing before. 5) I proudly carry my unique and poor idea around on the trail,and maybe mention my patent pending or whatever a few times at cocktail parties.

Anyway, my ideas are definitely unique, which probably means bad. I am OK with that. I really just like making my own stuff. But this seemed like an opportunity to just mess around a bit and justify purchases, etc.

So that is a long way of asking, would it be rude to ask/solicit potential beta testers for my world beating innovative products that will transform UL hiking forever (for free of course)? At this point I am hoping that my designs are just so impracticable that I can both have a cheapish patent pending, but also have at least one or two people think it was kind of cool. Plus my patents would be air-tight, as they could be pending forever w/o the real expense of a full patent....anyway I digress.

Sorry to go on so long. Mostly this whole patent thing has been an excuse to hike more and buy and sew and beta test all sorts of things and materials that I could never explain to my wife otherwise. Perhaps that is what I should have said first.

Anyway, there are probably a thousand posts here where someone has invented sliced bread or the wagon wheel (I have read many). As above, my belief is that the best possible outcome is that my idea is just good for me. Thanks all for suggestions, and feel free to tell me to not bother and just have fun MYOGing. That's basically what my wife tells me so you would definitely be on the right side of that issue. But who doesn't like free stuff? And can I borrow one of your patents?...)


Thanks everyone

Tim

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 21:27:56 MDT Print View

Any hint on what you would like people to test? Clothing, packs, shelters, stoves, etc...

Tim Cleary
(hempstead)

Locale: Lost
Well, if I tell you I would have to kill you. on 07/14/2012 21:36:18 MDT Print View

Franco:

Seriously though it is a system for regular tarp users who are sometimes interested in having bug protection and bathtub floor, but not always. It has some clever bits, but also some very impractical ones (as my 13-year old pointed out this weekend). Probably 1 MM people have already had the same idea, although I can promise that my bad ideas on this front will be at least distinctive. Still hoping for a failure, but not a colossal one...actually a colossal one would be good, just not a catastrophic one. Maybe I should just send something to you and Henry and you can tell me that my ideas were awesome and I have a 'patent' on it, maybe 'patent #12345' or something. That would definitely be cheaper. And then I can just enjoy my TT Moment and the trail.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 21:37:28 MDT Print View

Just ask for anyone interested in testing your gear to PM or email you. Nothing wrong, not breaking any rules, no real 'etiquette.' Nike, dude, Nike.

Tim Cleary
(hempstead)

Locale: Lost
Sorry Ken on 07/14/2012 21:37:37 MDT Print View

I don't know why I typed Franco, I was looking at your post at the time. I guess I just was thinking team TT. Time to go to bed on the East Coast, I guess.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 21:45:07 MDT Print View

It's all good. I only asked because it might be easier to find testers if they knew what they are testing. Interests are individual. We got stove guys, shelter guys, people who like lights etc...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 23:11:51 MDT Print View

Just do what you want until someone tells you not to do it, which will probably never happen

Yeah, give more info if you want to get anyone interested in testing it

I am only superficially familiar with patents, but if you divulge too much, then it's public, so you can't patent it

I've thought about patenting things but it seemed like just too much work. But I have no desire to commercialize anything. It would be cool to have a patent.

drowning in spam
(leaftye) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers on 07/14/2012 23:45:17 MDT Print View

Timeline might help too as people tend to hike more or less depending on the time of year. I personally don't spend much time on the trail this time of year. It's a good time for me to gain weight and lift a lot of weight, but not a great time to offer to test your gear.

Mark Dijkstra
(Markacd) - F
Beta testing on 07/15/2012 06:18:26 MDT Print View

I wouldn't mind testing whatever it is you're making. I don't know if I'll have the opportunity to do so anytime soon, but I'm currently making a tarptent, so your invention may come in handy. Even if it won't, it's always interesting to see what other people come up with.

Tim Cleary
(hempstead)

Locale: Lost
Thanks everyone on 07/15/2012 10:06:38 MDT Print View

I am going to work on a few to send out. Those who contacted me I'll definitely hit up 1st.

Why didn't I think of doing this in the winter when I was going to be inside anyway..)

Tim

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
beta testing on 07/16/2012 19:44:31 MDT Print View

I'm really into stoves/cooking stuff and shelters, and would be interested in trying out some of your stuff.

J P
(jordo_99) - MLife

Locale: Midwest
Re: Beta Testing on 07/16/2012 20:26:45 MDT Print View

I'd also be interested in beta testing.

Just let me know.

Nicholas Neville
(pc730) - F

Locale: Southern Oregon
Interested in what you got on 07/16/2012 20:47:06 MDT Print View

I would definitely be interested in trying what you got. Im always interested in new innovative ideas. PM me

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
Seeking Vanity Patent: proper etiquette on asking for beta testers" on 07/17/2012 11:05:09 MDT Print View

Tim,
Seeking a patent is really not worth it in the ultra light backpacking equipment . I guarantee you someone has made it or thought of it already and patent is only good for 10 years and additional 10 years renewal and person or company only needs to change the design by 10% to avoid patent infringement.

Now trademarking a names that were it at less expensive to research and cheaper to do and most large companies will respect that. Also they will change their design copy of your equipment by 20% to play it on the safe side in case it goes to court .
Terry

Edited by socal-nomad on 07/17/2012 11:08:23 MDT.

Chris Stafford
(chrisman2013) - F
Interested on 07/18/2012 10:37:35 MDT Print View

I would certainly be interested in testing out new gear. I love to analyze the pluses and cons of gear. I'm new to BackpackingLight but I recently found out about this site from over on HammockForums where I'm active.

Harald Hope
(hhope)

Locale: East Bay
prior art on 07/27/2012 13:36:41 MDT Print View

Just because the patent office doesn't actually really check very well when you apply for a patent doesn't mean that prior art doesn't exist. The best way to get free prior art checks done is to try to patent something that everyone in the area knows has existed for a long time, then they research it and provide the prior art example, and pooof, no patent. I'm actually glad that the myog people I like to give money to don't get into this game, it's refreshing.

All anyone has to do is dig up a forum thread where someone discussed or mentioned the idea you had prior to the patent being granted, then your patent is invalid.

This stuff comes up all the time in the software world (due to a horrible decision by the courts to allow software as a patentable item, along with business methods), but with something with such a limited and finite set of actual things you can make or design, the odds are really high that the stuff has already been made or invented by some diy or myog type years ago, only they never really cared about it in terms of trying to lock in the idea for profit.

The current patent system is really sloppy, so obvious and self-evident patents are granted all the time, sadly, so it could be worth a try, but it's unlikely to make you many friends long term.

More manufactured items that actually are unique because of some new technique or technology on the other hand stand a chance, things like stoves, climbing tools (like what Jardine invented, for example), etc that might have a new design or something.

Edited by hhope on 07/27/2012 13:38:12 MDT.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
seeking vanity patent on 07/28/2012 12:55:23 MDT Print View

Harald said: "The current patent system is really sloppy, so obvious and self-evident patents are granted all the time, sadly, so it could be worth a try, but it's unlikely to make you many friends long term".



Your correct on that and it's funny you mention Ray Jardine he is the perfect example of what can happen to a person . Ray only has one patent for a spring loaded camming device for rock climbing .

Ray still has a bad taste in his mouth on the Golite deal he did to bring ultra light weight backpacking equipment to the masses.
When Ray quit working for Golite he has made enemies saying people are copying all his ideas that he did not patent. In his books he suggest you should take the name tag off all your products.

I even had manufacture get mad at me through PM for a one off bandoleer type backpack that Chris Zimmer prototyped for him. I explained the pack I made was for my personal use only you can see a photo of the pack in my avatar photo. So it started a misunderstanding over MYOG project.

Almost every form of a backpacking gear has been made over the years so it hard to get patent for a product and very costly for vanity sake. So if a person copies and patent a MYOG project a person made because they were to lazy they will make enemies.

Also most of the MYOG people consider their project ideas as gifts to the group and the group is Gear think tank to learn from. The members that do go in to business for themselves we are very proud of them to be able to make a living on products and ideas that have been around for years.

Ray Jatdine climbers friend patent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device

Terry

Edited by socal-nomad on 07/28/2012 13:02:58 MDT.

Eddie Hinnant
(CedarTree) - F
Patent on 07/29/2012 07:31:15 MDT Print View

To the OP, don't let these last two posters rain on your parade. I have a patent on an ultralight piece of gear that pays all my bills. I am not rich, but I sure do have an easy job. Take Packa out of box, print postage, drop in mailbox---takes about 10 minutes a day. I sell on average about 1 every two days.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Make some up and let some trusted friends check them out. If you get a good response--go for it. I agree with the vainity angle. You almost have to approach it that way, because you really don't know if it will make money. When I was at your stage I also told myself I didn't care if it made money, I just wanted to be able to say I had a patented invention.

I would recommend not getting the provisional patent. Not worth it in my opinion. You can document (protect) your idea without getting a provisional. Either way, with or without a provisional, you are time limited to officially file for a patent--exactly one year.

If you haven't done so, do a patent search on line. You can do everything a lawyer can do at the USPTO website and googlepatents. Definitely do a search before you file a provisional.

If you want to discuss this in more detail, contact me through my Packa website.
Good luck,
Cedar Tree
www.thepacka.com

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Patent on 07/29/2012 07:43:33 MDT Print View

How do you protect your idea without provisional patent?

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
Patent on 07/29/2012 14:02:36 MDT Print View

Eddie,
I was not aware of your Packa that's a pretty original design of combo Poncho/Pack cover/ Jacket it really cool idea worthing getting the product patented.

I was reacting to the suggestion of Harald's posting that people could get patents on equipment that people in this MYOG forum designed and made for personal use,Shared the idea for anyone to use for free.
Because the original designer did not want to get a patent, they were to lazy, did not have the money to get a patent. I think that kind of actions by people would be a bad thing for MYOG crowd we would quit sharing are ideas.

I look forward to Tim the original posters and his new ideas he will get patent and may sell one day.

Like I posted in one post it is very hard to find backpacking equipment that has not been made before sometime in history.

I remember back in the Late 70's early 80's a company who came out with Ultra light weight backpacking gear . The packs were sky blue color made out of 1.9 oz.ripstop looked similar to Ray way type packs like we use now. They had ultra light weight sleeping bags, parkas and other gear. Their pitch line was" Backpacking Gear light as a Cloud" They had one problem most of people were using their old heavy gear still and the packs were ripping apart. I really wish I could remember the name of the company.

I was even designing and making ultra light weight day packs back in 1993 made out of 1.9oz. ripstop nylon similar to Ray Jardines for day hikes,I did not have a computer back then i had no knowledge of what was going on in backpacking. I just like making my own equipment and it all started with the Frostline equipment sleeping bag kit I made when I was 11 years old in boy scouts.

Oregon photos has the most comprehensive history of backpacking gear and the companies. You look through it ultra light is not a new idea. Backpackers have always tried to lighten up their gear.
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Backpacking-Revolution1.html
Terry

Edited by socal-nomad on 07/29/2012 14:09:22 MDT.