I have a Trail Designs Sidewinder Ti-Tri for the Evernew/REI .9L pot. I've been making coffee with it at home on top of the stove in the alcohol mode--with the vent fan on. The other day I forgot to use the titanium tent stakes that came with the kit and put the pot directly on top of the cone just like the conventional Caldera Cones. This puts the pot 1/2 inch closer to the stove than it normally would be. This is not the method approved by Trail Designs. The stove actually works this way, and in fact, seems to be more thrifty with fuel. I'm getting consistent boils of 2 1/2 cups of water using 1/2 oz of fuel, where before it would take 3/4 oz of fuel. That's a pretty significant difference. Has any one else had this experience?

Test's I've done has shown that the 12-10 stove is more efficient with the pot fully inserted, but boil times increases.

Yep more efficient but takes longer. No issue at home but might be if its cold and windy in the field

Yep more efficient but takes longer. No issue at home but might be if its cold and windy in the field

OR ... with the pot more completely inside the cone, shielded from wind and more exposed to the heat it might be a net plus to not use the stakes. Clearly needs field testing?

Perhaps Trail Designs folks could weigh in on the pros and cons if they have test data?

Edited by jcolten on 09/28/2012 05:15:27 MDT.

If you have a ULC style one, you can replace the stakes with a silicone band that you leave in place on the pot - simpler and lighter.

With the Sidewinder, you can indeed just have it lower and you'll get more fuel efficient burns in exchange for a longer wait (to a certain point). Better yet though, replace the 12-10 stove with a shorter stove (ie. Zelph's Starlyte with pot support removed) and you can retain the fast boil times. Specifics vary, but you normally need to a add a few extra hole punches around the base of the cone to get optimum speed from the Starlyte.

The other advantages of the Starlyte are that the wicking material makes it far easier to light in cold conditions, you can't spill fuel and without the pot support you can use a snap on lid (available from Zelph) to store fuel in the stove so there's no need to measure and waste and/or recover fuel after.

I actually used my Ti-Tri (non-sidewinder) in wood-burning mode without tent stakes (seems to be a big no-no...) the other day by accident. Had no issues other than a lot of soot. But there's normally a fair bit anyway.

I tried some tests with my sidewinder cooking kit and a Evernew .9L titanium pot in alchohol mode with the tent pegs and without, i had much faster boil times using the stakes.

Longer burn times without stakes, but longer to boil.

Edited by Phillipsart on 03/11/2013 13:35:42 MDT.

I've never used my Sidewinder for wood without the two stakes for a pot support.

I'm afeared of gittin' excommunicated by Trail designs.
But that sucker is VERY effecient with any of the 3 fuels it's made for.

I've heard of other heresey, like burning wood in it without the Inferno insert kit.

But... I think Trail Designs has tested it SO much that they have it right in every mode.

"If everything else fails follow the directions."

Dan,

Off this forum's advice I just went with the modified Starlyte + Tri Ti (and Evernew 900ml) combo.

Are you saying the best way to use this setup is w/o the stakes entirely? I was going to start testing boil times myself this weekend.

Thanks!

I've tried the Ti-Tri with a 1300ml Evernew pot.
Without stakes, it doesn't work well at all with wood. (forgot the stakes one time)
With alcohol, I saw little or no change without stakes (with a 1300ml pot).

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

I - being an alcohol newbie and generally all around technologically inept - didn't know I was supposed to use the stakes with the caldera cone and 12-10 alcohol stove. I have the 900ml evernew short/wide pot. Could not for the life of me get 2 cups of water to boil in my kitchen (I was using everclear). 1 oz, burned out, the water barely bubbled.

Then I read the directions.

With the stakes it worked just fine, I was able to get 2 cups to boil with about 3/4 oz...but then that meant I had to bring the stakes along. Thanks to all you fine folks who make me buy more stuff, I got the modified starlyte, which is shorter and smaller than the 12-10, and now I can get 2 cups to boil with a half ounce of denatured alcohol...and no stakes. Which means it all fits in the pot!! No more extra stuff to carry!!!

I think when the pot is sitting lower in the cone the net effect is that less oxygen is available for the combustion process. This will certainly slow down the burn time. In the worst case scenario, if you're alcohol stove is oxygen deprived, you will not get a complete combustion. The result is a "cooler" burn with Carbon Monoxide being a significant resultant along with Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapor. The Trail Designs stove has been "tuned" to be used with the cone. I believe this tuning is dependent on the size of the aperture in the middle of the stove + the size and number of the intake holes in the stove + the size and number of intake holes in the cone. Thus reducing the amount of oxygen going into the cone ( that's what you're doing when you lower the pot into the cone too far ) without reducing the aperture size on the stove could result in excessive carbon monoxide and a less efficient burn.

2 recommendations:

1) To use the cone without the stakes, you should reduce the aperture size of the stove. This can be done a number of ways. The way I did it was to get the top off a tin can and cut a small triangle in the middle with some tin snips. Then after lighting the stove and it's going nice and strong, place the damper on the top of the stove. Note: I have seen the stove go out more often like this, and the heat wasted from having to re-light and open up the cooking environment didn't seem to justify the fuel savings. Additionally it was one more bit of gear to remember to pack up and one more little thing to get lost and forgotten about at camp.

2) If you're looking to save a few grams by ditching the extra stakes, I had good luck bending the stakes into an "L" shape and removing the extra material from the end. This reduced the weight of the stakes by about 1/4 and the stakes stay in the cone easier due to the "L" shape. In addition, I trimmed the priming tray off my 12-10 stove so it is more easily stored in my cook pot. The stove has gotten a little bit "dinged" up. But it still works great.

1 comment:

I believe that Trail Designs has done significant testing to determine the best balance of fuel consumption vs. cooking times. I spent a lot of time re-doing their work only to discover that Trail Designs did it right. Don't get me wrong, I had a great time playing with the stove. So if it's fun for you to experiment, then have at it. But my experience is that the height of the pot, the holes in the stove, and the aperture size are absolutely perfect as is.

Sincerely,

-daniel-

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 03/12/2013 10:11:16 MDT.

Daniel - thank you for the write-up!

By chance have you ever tried using the Starlyte stove?

No, I haven't tried this one, but I'm sure the other Dan knows what he's talking about. He has offered sage advice on many other topics. I'll take a look at it online and report back if anything sticks out as relevant.

sincerely,

-daniel-

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 03/12/2013 10:50:37 MDT.

The only thing that jumps out at me about the starlyte is, as Dan said, remove the pot-stand. Because the pot stand is touching the stove, it will act as a heat sink drawing the heat away from the pot. This will increase the time to prime the stove, and will "cool off" the stove while it is cooking. If you take a look at the way the cone system is designed, the flame is in direct contact with the bottom of the stove. The stakes are not crossed in the middle, they are way off towards the sides of the pot. Nothing is there to interrupt the flame. (side bar: when the flame touches the pot stand on the starlyte I would expect the flame to flicker and change color from light blue to yellow orange. I would also expect there to be some smoke. Both of these indicate a less efficient burn. ) Also for the cone, the pot stand touches the ground in a thin line and that's all. This minimizes heat loss due to conduction thru the pot stand to the ground. I have yet to see a more efficient UL pot-stand ( not mention the windscreen ) in this regard. Excluding a tripod with the pot hanging over the flame. But this would be either super heavy to carry with you, or would require some fabrication with sticks that you would collect at camp.

However, I like the idea of the stove being filled with rock wool or some other non-combustible insulation. I have seen several stoves online that use this technique to great effect. So the Starlyte without the pot-stand with a caldera cone would be worth a try.

Hope this helps,

-daniel-

In my kitchen (trying it in the field next weekend) I was able to get 2 cups cold tap water to boil in about 7:30 mins with 1/2 ounce of denatured alcohol. It kept boiling for 12 mins before it burned out.

The starlyte is a smaller profile and seems to work very well in the cone without the stakes.

Daniel,

A stove certainly could produce more CO if it were starved of oxygen. On the other hand, if fuel consumption is relatively normal (or drops), and boil times extend, then probably what's happening is that one is just slowing the boil down. Of course, it would be nice to have a CO measuring device, but I wouldn't automatically assume more CO is being produced.

Interestingly, Trail Designs has come out with a device designed to slow down their 12-10 burner: a simmer ring that fits over the air inlets on the stoves. They were showing it at the recent GGG at Henry Coe State Park. I ran it. It had a long, slow burn, and baked a muffin in my Ti-Tri set up.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Here is the thread that convinced me to buy the starlyte. Check out the you tube video embedded in the first post.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73981&skip_to_post=632094

Edited by Jenmitol on 03/12/2013 13:13:45 MDT.

I recently did a bunch of testing to compare the 12-10 in various modes with the Starlyte in various modes. (The thread is around here on BPL, somewhere.) One that I tried was the 12-10 without the tent stakes, as you describe. I use one of the short/wide Evernew .9L pots. And, yes, it worked just fine. I had the opposite effect from you, though- I got a slightly faster boil time while using trivially more fuel.

I'm at 7000 feet elevation, so I'm sure that the leanness of the burn changes things somehow.

I'm also sure that the efficiency of doing this vary considerably depending upon what make of pot you use- some certainly hang lower than others.

Clearly, you can't do this when burning wood.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide_pt_4.html#.UT-RlRJHerB

This article is the basis of my assertion that as oxygen goes down, CO emission goes up. But I could be wrong.

Maybe I've inhaled too many fumes already...

Sincerely,

-daniel-