Alrighty...

A group of six of us and 2 dogs are headed to the southern Winds in August for the Hailey Pass - Washakie Pass loop. We are going quite leisurely, taking 7-ish days to do the loop and hopefully some peak scrambles. We are discussing (arguing?) about bear bags vs ursacks vs canisters.

a) if we decide to go the canister route, how many canisters does one need/should one take for 6 people and 2 dogs?

b) we have a 19 year old NOLS graduate/army recruit who we have elected to carry any and all bear canisters (he thinks the mileage is too short). I doubt he likes this idea, but we're all in our 40s and he's, well, 19.

c) honest opinions about ursacks? In the midwest it might be a good idea to buy one anyway for raccoon protection (our most annoying "predator" here). In case the kid can't be "convinced" to take the canisters, it certainly seems like a much, much better lightweight alternative to a canister. It also doesn't seem like the Winds is a bear-haven like the Sierras, but obviously I'm not going to use my food bag as a pillow.

d) how hard is it to "hang" when above the tree line? Never been to the Winds, but it certainly appears as though we'll be spending a great deal of time away from good hanging spots. I've read tons of trip reports lately and can't seem to find any real substantive guidance on such things.

You guys on this site have been awesome help...thanks in advance!

I can bring 8 days of food with a canister, the first days food in the pack as you will be eating it that first day. I can't see how one person can carry the bulk of so many canisters. I'd say minimum of 5-6 with the dogs. Check requirements to see if you need canisters as there is griz activity in some areas and not all canisters are approved for the Winds.
Duane

Ah...I've never used one, so I wasn't sure how many we'd need. I guess I was under the rather naive impression that we'd only need 1-2 for the group, not one for everyone :(
Everyone complains about how big and heavy they are, so I guess I just thought they'd fit a lot of stuff...

From Food Storage in Bridger-Teton

Your choices are -

"a. Stored in bear-resistant container certified through the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee Courtesy Inspection Program. A container may be certified by the local district ranger or their designated representative(s) if it meets the IGBC criteria, or

"c. Suspended at least 10 feet clear of the ground at all points and four feet horizontally from any supporting tree or pole

"e. Stored by other methods approved in a permit issued by the forest supervisor responsible for the area where the method is proposed for use."


Ursack is not noted, but if you can convince the permit issuing "Forest Supervisor" to note it's acceptability on your permit you will be good to go.

For the number of days you're out, I think that's one large BearVault canister, per person, plus one for Cujo. Yes, the expense and weight add up, quickly.

6 people, for 7 days, equals six canisters. At least one more for the two dogs. Seven canisters.

This assumes you will be eating calorie dense food. If you want fruit, veggies, bread, etc., you could easily pack two more. "Beverages" can engulf another two bear canisters.

If you aren't careful about your food, you could end up with a dozen canisters very quickly.

I'm going to the Winds for the first time and decided to call the Pinedale office. While it's not illegal to hang above tree line they are of the impression that it'd be pretty impossible to hang it somewhere that a bear couldn't access it. Even if you could, I'm not sure how you rig it so a marmot or other pesky animal doesn't chew through the line therefore dropping the bag of food on the ground.

Wonder what the fine is for improper food storage...

"Even if you could, I'm not sure how you rig it so a marmot or other pesky animal doesn't chew through the line therefore dropping the bag of food on the ground."

A properly hung (PCT method) setup is quite adequate for all the critters at least at night. Crows at somewhere like GCNP might be a different story. If you do chose to hang and if it's possible then make sure you take enough bear hangs for your group. I have found it challenging to hang even seven days worth of food on a single hang. (it will help to have multiple people, one to do a toss.). Also, if you go this route learn the pct method, it easy and fun and will amaze your friends. One final option, assuming hanging is both legal and possible maybe do a combination of canisters and hangs. Take three canister then hang the first few days food until it runs out.

If hanging isn't legal or possible then your young hikers will learn to love round barrels.

"Even if you could, I'm not sure how you rig it so a marmot or other pesky animal doesn't chew through the line therefore dropping the bag of food on the ground."

A properly hung (PCT method) setup is quite adequate for all the critters at least at night. Crows at somewhere like GCNP might be a different story. If you do chose to hang and if it's possible then make sure you take enough bear hangs for your group.

I'm talking about above treeline. I've seen folks talk about hanging their food over boulders. Unless I'm missing something I don't know how you protect the rope.

Well I'm bummed; I was really hoping to make the kid carry all the foodstuffs. I guess 12 canisters is probably a bit too much to ask....although it might slow him down a bit.........

"d) how hard is it to "hang" when above the tree line? Never been to the Winds, but it certainly appears as though we'll be spending a great deal of time away from good hanging spots. I've read tons of trip reports lately and can't seem to find any real substantive guidance on such things."

Sounds like a canister per person is the best way to go for peace of mind as well as keeping the bears and critters safe from your food.
However, I did not have a canister when i went through the Wind River range in 2010 and here is what i did:

I slept on my food sack which was wrapped in the large garbage compactor bag (later replaced with a Nylofume for the AT) that i used as a packliner during the day.
A few nights I stuffed my food sack into a space between the boulders and then shoved it 5 feet deeper using a trekking pole.
The space between the rocks where i stuffed the sack was too narrow for an adult griz to reach.
A marmot or smaller critter could have easily got my food but none did.

The big caveat to this is that i never cooked food, never camped near water, and never ate where i slept.

I am NOT recommending this advice, particularly sleeping with your food.

But if you, for some reason, were not to bring a canister along you could easily (relative term) hang your food when below tree line and wedge it beyond reach(from adult bears) when above treeline.

The downside of this approach is that you need either tall trees (very few in the winds)suitable for hanging or deep gaps between boulders (also kinda rare) so that limits your campsites quite a bit.

In other words, if I were to do it all again, I would probably take a Bear Vault 500 or similar canister just for the extra freedom and peace of mind.

Here is an example of what the Wind River Range looks like above treeline. Also the pile of rocks in the picture is where i stored my food bag. (Which is WAYYY too hella close to where i slept anyhow!)

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Here is an example of a forested area in the Wind River Range:

My best advice is: Take a bear resistant canister in the 700 cubic inch range per person.
Set them 50 yards or more away from camp.
Sleep in peace.

PS. I got a bunch of email about the shelter the last time i used this pic... It is a Gossamer Gear ONE. Served me well on the PCT and CDT. Fiddlesome setup sometimes but all in all an excellant shelter for one person.

Edited by Ice-axe on 07/05/2012 20:57:09 MDT.

Oh it so much depends on what you are bringing for food. Take along capellini or orzo for your carbs and you can put 25 lbs (40,000 kcals) in one BV500. Flavor with carmelized onions and tomato paste you've cooked, dehydrated, and vacuum sealed yourself. Add sliced pre-cooked meatballs you dehydrate. A gazillion other combos. A dehydrator costs $60-$130 - the same as one or two cannisters.

I just packed 6 BV500s for 6 people for 12 days and the food is really good.

If you go the Mountain House freeze-dried route, expect to get only half the carbs in a cannister. It may be light, but non-oily food is at most 4.5 kcal/gram, more like 3.5 to 4. Freeze dried food is full of air, and that means more 2 lb cannisters, more total pack volume, larger packs, and suddenly freeze dried doesn't deliver light weight anymore.

Things like coffee and cocoa have little to no nutritional value and take up a lot of room. OTOH, flavor packets (tea, Via, crystal lite) can accomplish the taste variety without much space. Some cereals are dense, others mostly air, though all have roughly the same carbs/oz. Nuts, chocolate, and dried fruit pack densely.

One idea is to dump orzo or somesuch around your other stuff to fill the gaps. It's quite enlightening to see just how much "wasted" space there is in your cannister.

Before you buy/rent the cannisters, measure some boxes, do the math, and see how much you can fit in a given volume.

Like so many things backpacking, lots of planning makes for a much improved trail experience.

Duane: you said you can fit 8 days of food in a lg. canister. How much food/day is this?

Nathan: By any chance do you have a menu you could share (for longer trips)?

I need to pack ~10 days of food in a bear vault for Muir Trail Ranch - Whitney Portal and am still working out the details.

Thanks!