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Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Misrepresentation on 07/08/2012 23:20:20 MDT Print View

"(Side note, if RutaLocura feels badly enough about the product naming they could always rename it "TenD" with a parenthetical "Previously known as EightD but renamed to better represent yadda yadda yadda")."

That was essentially done months ago at Titanium Goat, They sell the "8D" fabric, I no longer work for Titaniuum Goat. Let me reiterate, there has been a note about 8D being a 10 denier fabric on the TiGoat website for months. This is a non issue, especially given who raised the issue.

OP, I would find some "gen 1" M50, it is very breathable, being a 10D*10D jacquard weave with minimal DWR treatment. Unlike the "Gen 2" that is a 10D*10D plain weave cired both sides. The only thing the two have in common is misrepresented specifications.

Touche kettle, touche....

Did anyone sign my petition?

Paul Nanian
(PaulNanian) - F
Jacquard refers to the type of loom on 07/09/2012 05:02:42 MDT Print View

Jacquard is not a weave, it is a type of loom. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom

Paul Nanian
owner, thru-hiker.com

Dave Grey
(dapperdave) - F
This hair can be split both ways ;) on 07/09/2012 05:24:37 MDT Print View

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_weaving

Paul Nanian
(PaulNanian) - F
the bottom line on 07/09/2012 07:09:52 MDT Print View

The reason why nobody talks about the specific looms at retail outdoor fabric sources is because it is needlessly technical, but for the folks who want to get their nerd on, the specific type of loom used for M50v1 was a dobby loom, not a Jacquard loom. I enjoy talking about this kind of things with customers, so feel free to call and chat. And for folks searching for some boneheaded thing I've said or done at some point in the past, I'll save you the time and say right now that I've had my share.

Josh, I thought your 7d x 10d downproof breathable ripstop was quite impressive. But it's needlessly misleading to continue branding a 10d product "EightD".

Paul Nanian
owner, thru-hiker.com

Edited by PaulNanian on 07/09/2012 07:22:18 MDT.

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
fabric on 07/09/2012 13:37:48 MDT Print View

"Jaquard" weaves can be produced on jacquard or doby looms. Jacquard looms predate doby looms, which is why terminology deffers to the jacquard(pattern) weave. Neither process produces a plain weave "taffeta". DIYers, take a magnifying glass to your samples of gen 1 M50. Notice that there is a pattern to the weave, not just a plain bi directional weave, like "gen2" M50. It is this jacquard weave of the gen 1 M50 that causes it to have soo much bias stretch. That is also why its down proofness is marginal. It was also called a ripstop very early on, this is no doubt because of the pattern in the weave, that was percieved to be ripstop threads.

Paul if you add "generation" discaimers to M50 and M90, and/or rename them, so people are not confused about what they are buying now, versus what used to be called M50 or M90, I will get Titanium Goat to rename "8D" something that does not even reffer to denier.

Paul Nanian
(PaulNanian) - F
fair enough on 07/09/2012 18:05:45 MDT Print View

I think both what you're asking for and what you offer is a reasonable and I'm glad we were able to come to agreement. Consider it done.

Regards,
Paul Nanian
http://www.thru-hiker.com
(415)462-1745

Chris Lucas
(ChemE) - F

Locale: SC
Interesting on 07/10/2012 06:06:56 MDT Print View

*Disclaimer: I have made purchases from Thru-Hiker, TiGoat, and enLIGHTened Equipment and would not hesitate to do so again*

Being an engineering nerd (as many on this site are) I found the above thread drift very interesting. I do find the branding/marketing issue to be overblown though. Consider for a moment who would buy such fabrics; people interested in saving weight! I can't imagine for a second that someone shopping for a fabric for a MYOG project would fail to look at the finished weight of the fabric and just assume that the denier of the fabric can be a surrogate for finished weight. Once you establish that the fabric possesses the characteristics that you require the only two items left to consider are cost and finished weight.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Cottage Fabric Wars on 07/10/2012 18:20:40 MDT Print View

Dear God

I don't get it. Ti Goat was happy that they found out the suspected 8d fabric was actually 10 X 10d instead of 8 X 10d.
Just because more threads per inch usually means lighter, it is a good thing that a 10 X 10d fabric weighs .67 ounces per yard. Imagine if it were a 20 X 20d fabric that was .67 ounces?

I couldn't stand the first batch of M50. I made just a bit of a stink about it on this site. If Thru Hiker didn't agree, then why the quick change in the new batch?

I was so hesitant on getting the new M50 especially with the price cut in half. I'm thinking, crap; it's going to be a cheap product. Turns out it's one of my favorite things on this earth. The thing is as a liner, the fabric is at best incapable of the task. Way too sticky and way too sweaty.

Now on to 8d. Again, with all the hesitation about this fabric being cheap as it was just ordered as a batch from BPL members, I took a long time to make a purchase. It was through the readings of Tim that finally switched my mind to give it a try. Turns out it is also great (as a liner anyway) (Thanks Tim).

Hands down, M50 is the winner here as a good shell material is much more important. So now we have two amazing materials for our home made projects. So what's so bad about that? There is no way I would use a M50 liner over the 8D and vice versa for the shell. I made this mistake once already on my sub 10 ounce quilt. The next one I made for someone was with the 8d and it is hands down the better choice as a liner. Even though half the material is used as a liner, Thru Hiker so wrong to say anything about 8d. It's like having the best two layer jacket in the world and complaining about the inner fabric. It may take the two together to make the product, but the shell fabric is what really makes it the best.

I also totally agree that Ti Goat's explanation of 8d being a 10 X 10 should not warrant the need for a name change.
However running 2 different versions of the M50 and three of the M90 and not clearly stating that there was a change is dead wrong.

A simple
"A new version of M50/ M90 is out. It is a different 20 X 20 or 10 X 10 fabric with the same great coating" (or new better coating) would work.
Okay, so the new M50 was labeled as it being Teflon coated, but it is not obvious to the costumer that doesn't follow the latest and greatest on fabrics.

I also don't understand how M50 is such a well coated fabric and can still be that light weight. Thru Hiker would rule if you could cut the weight on the M50 fabric with a lighter coating as minimal as the 8d has on theirs (if it would cut the weight by a percentage) and make as a doable option as a liner?
M50 is a much better quality fabric as well, and I would much rather use it for my entire bag, but as of now just doesn't cut it as a liner.


On a side note, as long as we’re talking down about fabrics, I absolutely hate purchasing fabric and having it cut at an angle. Having a strait heat gun edged cut would allow you to immediately start on your project instead of first fixing the mistake the person cutting the fabric did back at the shop (usually with a pair of scissors). I also don't own a 6 foot strait edge so unless the cut is perfectly square, I just keep measuring down from the top for each cut after so every cut after is also messed up.

For now 8d and the not stated as the 2nd generation of M50 will be the liner and shell (respectively) of every bag and quilt I make. I also thank those two companies for having such great products.

Amen

Edited by awsorensen on 07/10/2012 18:51:08 MDT.

Paul Nanian
(PaulNanian) - F
Minimally finished M50 isn't offered because it isn't downproof enough on 07/12/2012 14:20:38 MDT Print View

Hi Aaron--

I remember your comments on the M50v1 from last year W.R.T. inadequate downproofness.

The question you're asking now, why can't the current M50 be supplied with minimal coating, is a good one and I don't find it surprising that gearmakers ask this type of question. After all, the "why not..." type question is what pushes projects forward.

I asked the same question and had some prototype M50 yardage produced using minimal finishing last year. Unfortunatelyit failed the IDFL FTMS191 downproofness test after a single laundering, even with my 900 Fill Power down. It's really difficult to get these ultralite downproof fabrics to hold up as they age. The FTMS191 process with launderings is similar to the sil nylon age testing that Richard completed last year. Laundering and the tumbling box test process are designed to quickly elicit the kind of wear that a product will see as it ages.

I haven't seen testing on the '8d' liner, but I have compared it to the minimally finished M50 prototype version. It is considerably looser than the minimally finished M50 which never went into production because just wasn't downproof enough. It would probably be a good idea for the folks using that on commercial products to send it to IDFL for testing as it's likely that it "loosens up" as it ages, increasing its down leak rate.

The current version of M50 is fully downproof 5 aging cycles down the line, so I know that it will be downproof for the life of a quilt. If folks want to use their own choice for a liner and it ends up leaking, they take responsibility for the decision. I will also offer a fabric in the same weight class that maintains reasonable downproofness as it ages and 'feels better' as an option for use as a liner in the near future.

rgds,
Paul

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Fabric on 07/12/2012 22:01:23 MDT Print View

Paul

Everyone here knows the level of down proofness possessed by "8D". It was this Community that came up with the fabric, and put it through the paces. Everyone can thank Zohar for getting things rolling.

The name has been changed, to "nobull" with disclaimers on the TiGoat site. This took some arm twisting, usually it is me that does not like to play nice. rare opportunity.

When you add your disclaimers, and/or rename your fabric. I would kindly ask that you remove the erroneous reference to "Teflon" also.

To everyone interested in a fabric that falls somewhere between nobull and M50v2, TiGoat has just such a fabric. It is the nobull 10D*10D with a heavy cire and coating on one side(makes it very shiny), with the soft face retained on the other side. This has been available for about 2 months, but not on the website. It has gone out the door so fast(1000yards so far) that DJ has not had a chance to add it to the website. There are limited quantities on hand, with more on the way.

edited for spellen'

Edited by Joshleavitt on 07/12/2012 22:10:27 MDT.

James Landro
(justaddfuel) - F

Locale: MN
Re: Minimally finished M50 isn't offered because it isn't downproof enough on 07/12/2012 22:21:32 MDT Print View

I used to think highly of thru-hiker until I read this thread. The belly aching and attacks on a tiny company like tigoat are a seriously bad look. If i were you I would delete all of these posts now that you got what you want paul.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Fabric on 07/13/2012 08:03:01 MDT Print View

That's pretty funny Josh - "Nobull"

I don't think any more or less of Josh/Paul/Tigoat/Thru-hiker. They all make good products. I've bought stuff from both and will probably do so again.

I think Paul was a bit over the line but we're all human.

Paul Nanian
(PaulNanian) - F
a win for everyone on 07/13/2012 16:12:07 MDT Print View

James,

When two people with strong feelings can have a frank and civil discussion on a topic that does not often see the light of day, come to an agreement that involves compromise on both sides, with the end result that more and better information is provided for all gearmakers, that sounds like a win for everyone.

rgds,
Paul

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: a win for everyone on 07/15/2012 09:25:20 MDT Print View

I agree.
Paul is making some really good points. He wants the best he can find and tests hundreds if not thoughsands of fabrics to get the best.
Then comes some run of the mill stuff, (that I'm sure would not be down proof with testing) and he just wants everyone out there to know what's up. I buy 90% of my gear through thru-hiker and none of this makes any type of dent on how I feel about the product.

These are all real conversations that have taken place that affect everyone as a whole. If they cannot be brought on the table and discussed, then you are at the wrong website.
I have been a member for so long time so I invite this.
In those years, many conversations have come up and brought on these forums.
I mean where else can you actually have two cottage companies discuss so openly.

The fact is, results come out of these conversations. There is no real hate and discontent between anyone here, the truth is just coming out. Who knows, Enlightened equipment may try some testing himself, or a year down the road there are a ton of his down quilts for sell on the swap because of this very same reason (let’s hope not). Or the 10 X 10 could be a crowd pleaser and then hopefully thru-hiker will come out with something even more dominant?

The fact is they both sell excellent articles and sleeping lions do not always lie.

Edited by awsorensen on 07/15/2012 09:32:41 MDT.

drowning in spam
(leaftye) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: a win for everyone on 07/15/2012 13:46:34 MDT Print View

I still think Paul should label each generation of fabric differently. I'm here all the time, but I didn't know that there were 3 generations of M50. I knew the first one wasn't that great. If I'm not here as much, I won't know when changes happen if the product description, code or name doesn't indicate a change. If not that, add a page with a change log history like software companies do with their products. Paul might even enjoy getting techie in the description of changes and why they were needed.

Nathan Hays
(oroambulant)

Locale: San Francisco
Loft rate really isn't a problem on 07/20/2012 11:33:30 MDT Print View

Just came back from 5 days, 60 miles, +/- 24K' (Road's End, Avalanche, Colby, Harrison, Road's End in SEKI) and I no longer think there is any problem with the lofting rate of the M50. It is slower than some commercial down bags I've had, but nothing worth wrangling over.

I absolutely LOVE the quilts. My son and I just fit in a Kelty 2-man and the two quilts were easily 5" thick over us. I could barely feel the weight. Underneath I used a 1/8" evazote over a Klymit X-Lite (torso length).

There's something qualitatively different about the setup that is unlike a thermarest/synth bag. Even though it was so thick, I was neither too hot nor too cold. No condensation in the tent at all except right in front of my face. I think this may be due to the excellent temp regulation and not sweating as a result.

The Karo step baffles are great. Some easy sweeps of the hand and I could concentrate the down where I wanted it and it stayed.

These quilts and pads dropped our packs a combined 7 lbs 4 oz. We set out at 25# each (incl. food + 2L). The tent and down jackets are next!