What is the material on the back side of the shoulder straps? Is it the same material on the lower back side of the pack? Is it a coated material? Would items stuffed into the strap pockets get soaked with sweat?

Jordan:

For an overnight, do you need to bring an 8 oz. bottle for your alcohol? I think a 2oz bottle is enough.

In lieu of Boston Market spoon, get an equally light but much more versatile plastic Taco Bell spork!

I don't use anything that I would need to take out at the end of the day or if the weather changed.

So, I place portions of my med kit, e.g. gauze, bandages, and any other soft items in sandwich bags & close the opening of the bag. Hopefully, I'll never need to use any of these - even for blisters (rarely get hotspots or blisters when using light footwear).

The bags prevent the gauze/bandages from getting wet/sweat soaked & also prevents the hook&loop fabric which closes the shoulder straps (& the waist belt on the G5) from "snagging" anything.

It doesn't take much to spread out the shoulder straps (&hip belt on the G5), causing them to distribute the weight of the pack over a larger area. For the light weight the G6 & G5 are intended to carry, this seems to be all of the "padding" one really needs.

Here are some comments and ideas:
-------
•Vargo ti stakes- 6 (1.68 oz)
•Brasslite turbo f- alcohol (.8 oz)
•8 oz alcohol squirt bottle w/ alcohol
•Lighter (1 oz)
•Snow peak titanium bowl (1.6 oz)
MSR Lite-Lifters pot grabber (1 oz)
•Boston Market spoon (.1 oz)
-------
2 stakes across some stones or a small hole in the ground would hold a pot. Underneat it light up an Esbit fueltab.
Actually weightless as you have the stakes.
Mini Bic lighters are only 0.5 oz. A small kit with stormmatches, half birthday candle etc is only 0.2 - 0.3 oZ
Snowpeak do have pots with handles in the 2-3 oZ range. The lid on the 700 is actually steel and rather heavy.
------
•Adventure medical kits u.l. .3 (2.21 oz)
This kit contain a roll of tape 0.75 oZ this is to heavy. A small roll of medicore tape is only 0.15 oZ This kit can be reduced to less than 1.5 oZ. If you build your own 1 oZ is possible.
-------
•Deet in small dropper bottle (.5 oz)
Use BMW microdropper at 0.05 oZ and 40 drops of 100% pure DEET total = 0.12 oZ. Put 5-6 drops of water in your hand and add 1 drop of 100% deet. Grind this field lotion between your hand and then in your face and hair etc.
-------
•2 micro photon lights (.5 oz)
Backup.?!! Start with a new batts and carry only one photon. The new freedom is actually really amazing.!
--------
•2 platypus 2L bottles (2 oz)
= 4 liters of water. Would you carry this? Else one is enough.
---------
•Aqua mira in small dropper bottles (.5 oz)
Use Katadyn M1 tablets. Only weight of tablets and thats actually consumabels!!
-------
•Small knife (1 oz)
Gerber micro LST = 0.3 oZ and the Spyder Ladybug is 0.5 oZ and that knife is really handsome. Get it from prolitegear.com
-------
•Gossamer gear driducks rain jacket (5.5 oz)
Consider poncho instead of tarp and rain jacket.
I use a poncho from Integral Design which I have reworked from 10 oZ down to 8.57 oZ
(Same size but much lighter elastic cords etc.)

Best regards

Edited by skaarup on 06/08/2005 15:58:30 MDT.

Regarding the comment about carring two 2L platy's--I don't know about others, but while I never hike with 4L of water, I carry extra capacity so that I can tank up on water and treat it all in one go at camp. Works especially well if I'm bedding down away from water sources (important in the buggy country I often find myself in).

I used to use a 64gm/2.3oz Snowpeak titanium bowl/pot with 10gm/.35oz homemade aluminum lid. Stowed inside was fast food plastic spork 1gm/.035oz, BPL wing stove 30gm, mini Bic butane lighter 11gm, foil windscreen 11gm, Esbit fuel tablet 14gm, 2 zip-loc snack bags 4gm for a complete cook kit weighing in at 5.3oz.

Since I cut the top off a 25.4 fl.oz. Fosters beer can (thanks to Dr.J for the idea) and added a disposable cookie sheet aluminum foil lid; the pot and lid dropped to .85 oz total. This leaves me with a slightly larger 730ml pot and 3.55 oz. cook and dining set including fuel. If you use tent stakes and/or rocks (as was previously suggested) you can lose the stove and drop your complete kit weight to 2.5oz. ready to cook! No need for 1oz. pot lifter. Use gloves, socks, clothing, sticks,etc. to hold pot. REMEMBER: try to avoid carrying items that serve only one purpose.

Titanium does have a very high strength to weight ratio, but aside from being ridiculously expensive; in most manufactured products it is WAY too strong for the application. The same goes for lexan spoons and water bottles (except for Lexan being much cheaper than titanium).
One application where the strength of titanium is applicable to our game is tent stakes. Dr.J. recommends carrying one Vargo stake to drive holes in the earth for your other lighter BMW titanium stakes.
Cheers-----Al

Edited by Al_T.Tude on 06/24/2005 06:20:42 MDT.

Gear- for an overnight, summer outing in the southeast (REVISED!!!)

•Gossamer gear G6 Whisper (3.7 oz)
• Nanoseeum mesh kitchen bag- homemade (.2 oz)
•Granite gear airbag #4- bag (.69 oz)
•Dancing light gear silnylon small stuff sack- shelter (.25 oz)
•Bozeman mountain works spintarp x-lite (4.5 oz)
•Gossamer gear polycryo ground cloth- small (1.3 oz)
•Vargo ti stakes- 6 (1.68 oz)
•Bozeman mountain works aircore spectra 1- 40’ (.16 oz)
•Western mountaineering highlite (16 oz)
•Mini bull designs stealth alcohol stove(.23 oz)
•4 oz alcohol squirt bottle w/ alcohol- to cook 3 meals
•Waterproof matches w/ trick relighting birthday candle (.3 oz)
•Snow peak titanium bowl (1.6 oz)
•Homemade foil lid (.1 oz)
•Taco Bell plastic spork (.1 oz)
•Homemade u.l. first-aid kit (1-1.5 oz)
•Deet in BMW small dropper bottle (.15 oz)
•Gossamer gear thinlight insulation pad (1.9 oz)
•2 platypus 1L bottles (1.6 oz)
•Katadyn M1 tablets- 6 (.18 oz)
•1 pair golite classic socks (1 oz)

Total weight: 36.55 oz = 2.28 lbs (minus food, water & fuel)

Items Worn on Body:
•ACR Emergency whistle (.2 oz)*
•Photon micro light (.2 oz)*
•Small pocket knife (.5 oz)*
•Teva mesh hat (1 oz)
•Golite c-thru s/s shirt (4 oz)
•Golite mens boulder shorts (5 oz)
•Golite classic socks (1 oz)
•Saloman gcs pro hiking shoes (32 oz)
•GoLite Wisp pullover (2.5 oz)
•Gossamer gear lightrek plus poles (5.2 oz)

* - items on lanyard

This is far beyond insane!!! Can this list possibly get any lighter?

Jordan wrote: "This is far beyond insane!!! Can this list possibly get any lighter?
Subject: Newly Revised Extremely Light Gear List Posted: 06/24/2005 14:32:27 MDT by Jordan Calicott (ShortmanCal) Gear- for an overnight, summer outing in the southeast (REVISED!!!)"


Making a few of the items myself and the same overnight hike I can reduce the weight a lot. For an overnight hike I would carry 3 Ebsit tablets and find a couple of stones to support my cook pot. The weight per item listed next to Jordan's are mine. They would be made by me. The big difference in weight is from a much lighter fabric I use. I would make a new pack bag sort of like the G6 but smaller and at less than 1oz total weight. I have already made a pack bag a little bigger than the G6 that minus the mesh pockets would weigh less than 1 ounce. I have just gone with your "clothing worn" items except I would use one of my home-made trekking poles at 2.8oz and my trail runners weigh a little less than yours. I would add my light weight digital camera.


• Gossamer gear G6 Whisper (3.7 oz) MINE - 1.00oz
* Nanoseeum mesh kitchen bag- homemade (.2 oz) MINE - 0.10oz
• Granite gear airbag #4- bag (.69 oz) MINE - 0.30oz
• Dancing light gear silnylon small stuff sack- shelter (.25 oz) MINE - 0.12oz
• Bozeman mountain works spintarp x-lite (4.5 oz) MINE - 2.00oz
• Gossamer gear polycryo ground cloth- small (1.3 oz) MINE - 0.60oz
• Vargo ti stakes- 6 (1.68 oz)
• Bozeman mountain works aircore spectra 1- 40’ (.16 oz)
• Western mountaineering highlite (16 oz) MINE - 9.00oz
• Mini bull designs stealth alcohol stove(.23 oz) 0.00oz
• 4 oz alcohol squirt bottle w/ alcohol- to cook 3 meals (3 Esbits) 0.00oz
• Waterproof matches w/ trick relighting birthday candle (.3 oz)
• Alan Shaver's "Fosters" Pot (.85oz)
• Homemade foil lid (.1 oz)
• Taco Bell plastic spork (.1 oz)
• Homemade u.l. first-aid kit (1-1.5 oz)
• Deet in BMW small dropper bottle (.15 oz) 0.15oz
• Gossamer gear thinlight insulation pad (1.9 oz) MINE (Balloon Bed) 0.60oz
• 2 platypus 1L bottles (1.6 oz)
• Katadyn M1 tablets- 6 (.18 oz)
• 1 pair golite classic socks (1 oz)

8.02oz + 12.47oz = 20.49oz

[OLD TOTAL] Total weight: 36.55 oz = 2 lbs /4.55oz (minus food, water & fuel)

[NEW TOTAL] Total weight: 20.49oz = 1 lb / 4.49oz (minus food, water & fuel)

Items Worn on Body:
• ACR Emergency whistle (.2 oz)*
• Photon micro light (.2 oz)*
• Small pocket knife (.5 oz)*
• Teva mesh hat (xxxx) [Sub. my Tilley Hat]
• Golite c-thru s/s shirt (4 oz)
• Golite mens boulder shorts (5 oz)
• Golite classic socks (1 oz)
• Saloman gcs pro hiking shoes (xxxx) [My trail runners weight 28oz per pair]
• GoLite Wisp pullover (2.5 oz)
• Gossamer gear lightrek plus poles (xxxx) [1 trekking pole 2.8oz]
* items on lanyard

[ With the 9 ounces I saved I would add my light weight Digital Camera back at 5oz and my Tilley hat at 3+oz.]

Yes, it did get lighter.

[edited to add Alan Shaver's "Fosters" Pot (reduced weight another .75oz)]

Edited by bfornshell on 06/27/2005 07:24:18 MDT.

Thanks alot for your comments! Now my gear list weighs almost nothing! Also, I have a few questions about some of your gear:
- What is a balloon bed and where could I find one? If it only weighs .60 oz I would love to have one!
- How did you get your tarp to weigh so little- 2 oz?
- What sleeping bag are you using? If I had that, I could lose 7 oz!

Once again thanks for your great comments! Soon, I will be able to go backpacking with around 1 lb of gear. THIS IS INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Questions from Jorden:
I have a few questions about some of your gear:

Q1 - What is a balloon bed and where could I find one?

A1 - A Balloon Bed thing is sold by a UK company. Mark Veber posted a comment and a link to a review he did of a Balloon Bed the first of June 2005. You should read his review.

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/reviews/balloonbed.html

My first contact with the UK Balloon Bed was sometime early summer 2004.

http://www.balloonbed.com

Someone I think from the company that sells it posted a comment about it and a link to the UK site. I looked at the web site but thought it was a lot of money for very little product. Fabric is cheap and so are balloons. I went to my local Hobby Store and bought a bag of balloons and a small balloon pump. I had some $1 a yard ripstop from Wal Mart and sewed a sleeve from it for 5 balloons, blew up the balloons and layed down on it. It worked. On the floor It was to narrow and to short for what I wanted. I use a hammock to sleep in and the narrow width would work in my hammock. I went looking for longer balloons and decided I could make it as wide as I wanted if necessary later. I was able to find balloons 3" by 65" from a guy that does balloon sculpture parties for kids. I went to him and bought some of the bigger balloons. He took the balloons I was buying and made a bag out of some Poly Tube stuff that comes on a long roll. [(Remember this) When I saw this stuff I forgot about the balloons. I finished my bigger balloon bed but I had found a better material to play with.]

I brought up the balloon bed idea because your hike is only "over-night". The balloons are a "use one time only" item and for several days would require carrying a bunch of balloons. For over-night and going as light as possible the Balloon Bed idea is worth looking at. It also takes up next to NO space. I did the Math between my Poly Tube Air Mattress and the Balloon Bed and at the 4 or 5 day point the Poly-Tube starts to weigh less than the balloons. The Poly-Tube stuff is re-usable.

This first link is the "life history" of my Balloon Bed/ Poly Tube Air Mattress/Down Air Mattress - Sleeping System for "0" degrees F. project. It is very long and covers a time period that starts in July of 2004. The pictures below are of my short romance with the Balloon Bed idea. They were taken early Summer of 2004.






Q2 - If it only weighs .60 oz I would love to have one!

A2 - This is where clever comes in. The sleeve for the balloons has to be part of something else so the weight is divided between two or more items. Something possibly your ground cloth. The 3x65 balloons weigh 3.9 grams each. You would have to decide how wide you needed the balloon bed to be and how long and then see how much the balloons would weigh. Shorter balloons would weigh less. You might decide half length would be OK and you might even go for a balloon that is 2" for one night.

Q3 - How did you get your tarp to weigh so little- 2 oz?

A3 - You said you were using a BMW Spin-tarp x-lite. That tarp is 4'3" by 7'9" or 3.66 sq yards. The listed weight of the tarp is 6.2oz. At that weight and using simple math 3.66 sq yards times my material at .40 oz per sq yard would be 1.46oz. I didn't add guy lines since you have 40' of BMW Aircore spectra line added to your pack weigh already. The super light material I would make my tarp out of and the same size lets me drop maybe as much as 3oz over the stock BMW tarp.

Q4 - What sleeping bag are you using? If I had that, I could lose 7 oz!

A4 - I would make a very light weight Down quilt that would attach to my Air Mattress shell and create a bivy looking thing. For Summer I would guess a Down loft of 1 to 1.5 inches would keep me warm. This would be less than 1oz per Down baffle times 5 baffles. The shell material at .40 oz per sq yard would be about 2.4oz added to the 5 oz (Down + baffle material) for a total less the 8oz.or well under the planning amount of 9oz.

Mt current DAM/Down Top Cover System for "0" degrees F uses 1oz of 800+ Down per baffle at 3.5" x 78" long. The total weight of each filled baffle is 1.5oz. This gives me almost 4" of Down loft. My Poly-Tube DAM has 9oz of Down divided between 9 Tubes of 1oz each. The Top Cover has 16oz of Down and a removable Down Cap with 2 oz of Down in it. All of the shell material used was $1 a yard stuff from Wal Mart and is not very light. When I get around to sewing the finial version I can decide between some Pertex Quataum I have or something like WM now uses on their sleeping bags. Both materials would work but I am not sure I will ever be able to get more Pertex Quataum. I have been saving the Pertex stuff for some time and may want to use it for something else now that I may not be able to get more.

Playing with the Poly-Tubes for an Air Mattress.





Is 1 pound possible, yes, but only with clever application of muti-use items. This gear list only needs to drop 6 more ounces. Piece of cake. The trick would be a hike longer than "over-night" with the 1-pound gear list.

Say a long section of the AT or maybe an AT Thru-Hike. Anyone game?


["Once again thanks for your great comments! Soon, I will be able to go backpacking with around 1 lb of gear. THIS IS INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"]

Edited by bfornshell on 06/25/2005 13:16:53 MDT.

Thanks for answering my questions. I love the balloon bed idea! I have one more question to ask you- where do you get the .40 oz per yard fabric? I would love to have some of that so I could make some gear.

The material I have started using comes from Cuben Fiber. It is very light but strong sail material

http://www.cubenfiber.com

It is their product # CTO.6k.08 and costs $13.40 a yard. It is 48" wide by however long you need. This is the .40 oz per sq yard material I made reference to. They have a lot of different fabric but this is the lightest they are now making.

They only ship after they receive payment. They don't take credit cards so I send them a request for however many yards I want and they then send me a Sales Order. I then send a check and after awhile I get my order. They don't have a 1-800 number but their regular phone number is 480-641-0438. I email them at CubenFiber@CubenFiber.com

A number of gear makers have tested this material but I don't know any that are in production with it.

I made my G6 AT1 Clone out of a sample piece of some that weighed .35oz per square yard. The pack bag turned out to be 2.10oz and that inculdes 1.28oz for the mesh used for the side and front pockets. So the pack bag which is larger than the G6 took .82oz of fabric. It takes some creative design work to make sure the seams don't tear out. I would get a yard or two and sew yourself a pack out of some and see what you think.

This stuff is not for everyone.

I have 5 yards of the .40oz on order and will make 2 more packs and a super light hammock out of it. Next will be my tarp and/or poncho.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/13/2005 00:37:26 MDT.

Bill--- Kudos on your innovative R&D and focus. If I read your post correctly you are suggesting non-breathable Cuban fabric for your quilt shell. Wouldn't that be rather uncomfortable?
I notice that your latest gear list includes the heavyweight titanium pot over the .85 oz pot and lid that I suggested. If you want to go sub pound, you're going to have to start getting serious!

Hi Alan, Good idea. I read your post but didn't make the change. I changed my list to include the "Alan Shaver Fosters Cook Pot at .85oz. I have seen the large beer can used for a cook pot but have never tried one. I would worry about how long the Foster pot might last on a longer hike but since this is just an over-nighter it only has to last a day or so. I need to make one an do some testing with it.

As far as using Cuben material for a quilt shell, I also use a lot of silk and I can get silk in a weight of .40oz, .45oz, .57oz, .64oz per sq yard and that is just the really light stuff. My current silk Hammock is made out of 1.02oz per sq yard material.

Remember that Carol said in her article that Ryan's SUL rules don't say you have to be comfortable, just do it without dying.

Hi. Come on.
Do you really need to cook on a overnighter.!!?
Just bring some snack along and save a LOT of weight.
Also the DEET could be applied before you take off. 100% last a long time.
Sunscreen with hight SPF also applied before taking off.
Lets go for a sub-zero-pound load weight.:-)

Edited by skaarup on 06/27/2005 09:13:17 MDT.

You are talking about "Consumables" and they don't count toward the "SUL-Pack Weight". I didn't remove them or move them but would not inclide them if it was my gear list.

Consumables:
Food
Water
Fuel
Toilet Paper
Baking Soda for your teeth
SunScreen
Matches/Lighter
Batteries
Bug Protection
"ALL" water treatment items - filters - etc
First Aid items
"Balloons" for the Balloon Bed (one time use item)
etc
etc

We need a ruling from Ryan on this question. Define "consumables" for us?

Bill,

I agree. Dr. J will need to provide a definitive ruling on this (at least we won't have a 5-4 split !!!).

For my part, I only count food, water, & fuel (if i'm carrying any & not eating just GORP - however, I count 1 esbit for emergency even when eating just GORP on a trek), but all of the others items you list (e.g., water purification/filtration, chems, Rx, TP, etc.) I count towards base pack wt.

But..hey...maybe it's just me that does that?

Bill:

You are turning Super UL into Selective UL!

I don't care two hoots about drawing lines like this -- but suffice to say, your SUL weight definition is uniquely your own -- which is fine if it makes you happy, but it does render a comparison with others a meaningless exercise.

If water treatment is a "consumable", presumably because it relates closely to the consumption of a consumable (water), then shouldn't your backpack be a consumable as well -- since it is used to hold/protect your consumables?

Edited by ben2world on 06/27/2005 11:57:15 MDT.

I only ask the question, so those that want to, will all be on the same "sheet of music" so to speak.

I defir to Ryan to answer the question. It is after all his challenge to those of us who care to enter the fray.

The more time I spent/think about this the more I think 2 pounds for a 2 or 3 day hike is very possible. This leads me to think an SUL AT Thru-Hike in the 2 to 3 pound range is also possible. This then is where I am headed.

Normally if you see BPL gear list water, food and FUEL are consumables. So all the hardware, bottles etc. are gear. Also batteries as you could not leave them behind!!. DEET and sunscreen allready applied on your skin is not counted. Gear list tend to include these in the base weight. It is however consumables.!

The question is how about those stuff you actually consume. You dont count on comsuming first aid, survival gear etc.

However you should count your comsumables at the end off your list as this is actually the weight carried in the beginning. Soo where you put your TP etc doesnt matter in the end.:-)

Edited by skaarup on 06/27/2005 13:13:30 MDT.