Hi all

Over the years many of you have asked whether (or when) my tents will become available. I tried making them myself for sale but it was too slow and the price was too high. Sigh.

Well, AFTER my Survey and Tutorial on Tunnel Tents was published I was contacted by a large manufacturer of outdoors gear. Based on the Tutorial, they expressed an interest in producing my tents under licence. So, we negotiated, and I have signed an agreement. I repeat, their interest was triggered by the publication of the Tutorial.

Two key items in the agreement are that I will be working with the actual company doing the sewing, and the designs to be produced are subject to my approval. Some readers worried that the design might be degraded if it went into production by someone else: that is not going to happen. My design approval is needed.

Yes, this means we are aiming at the high end of the light-weight market, NOT at the low end where all those pop-ups reign. So the price is not going to be low, but the company thinks it will be affordable.


The first version is expected to be the single-skin 2-man 3-pole summer tent. It will look very similar to the (6-year old) blue one you have seen in my photos, just slightly improved with the benefit of all those years of testing. Weight target: under 1.2 kg, depending on fabrics


If this sells well, we will then move on to the double-skin 2-man 4-pole winter tent, that you will also have seen in some of my photos. Weight target, around 1.5 kg, again depending on fabrics.

The company is Easton Mountain Products, and the tents will be using their carbon fibre poles. Expected (hoped?) delivery is spring/summer 2014. Their comment: "Also we're very excited at the prospect!" Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed too.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 06/07/2012 17:47:27 MDT.

That is super cool! I'll be in the queue for one.

Roger,

Very, very cool. Congratulations and much success!

2.6 pounds. I might have to get one.

Congrats Roger!

I have no foreseeable need for such a tent in the near future, especially living here in NM with our favorable weather, but a big congratulations goes out to you Mr. Caffin on your new endeavor.

For the winter one!!! Might take a few years of piggy bank filling but the excitement is high.

This is so epicly awesome, Roger. All the drooling we have done over these tents in BPL articles will not have been in vain. Any chance we'll get a BPL article on licensing a design or the production process?

Edited by dsmontgomery on 06/07/2012 18:35:57 MDT.

OI! Oi! Oi!

Can't wait - I'll definitely buy one for the winter.

Sweet! Count me in for the winter one.

it aint "cottage" ... so it aint BPL coool ;)


good for you !

2014, as in 2 years from now?

Easton is really stepping up their game lately. Good on them, and a fantastic opportunity for you Roger to share your expertise with the world!

That is awesome, Roger! Congrats are in order - can't wait to see em.

I can hardly wait for a certain somebody's response to this news.

While I found your "reviews" to be completely biased, and to me almost seemed to be selling your product, I do wish you success and look forward to the tent line.

Edited by king2005ify on 06/07/2012 22:17:38 MDT.

Looks good! I will want to try it myself rather than rely on reviews. ;-)

I have been keenly interested and ever hopeful of being able to one day get one of your tents since 2002, when I first read your website and all the information you put in there (and when I also had an exchange with you about making one myself). Ten years! Finally they'll be here! Definitely put me on the waiting list!

Congratulations! It's good to see some excellent quality tents reaching into the mainstream market.

Man, I leave the computer for a few minutes and look what happens.
Congratulations Roger- I have been trying to figure out how to get my hands on one for years. I didn't want to make the several versions you did to get where they are now.
I just hope the price isn't in the stratosphere.
Put me on the wait list.

Spectacular, Roger!

Thank you so much for persuing this. The community can only benefit. Could be a game-changer to all manufacturers interested in persuing lightweight designs, and I hope this brings you reward.

I'll probably end up buying both eventually, or maybe just the winter one, depending on pricing.

Couple questions:

1) Do you have any concerns over using carbon fiber instead of aluminum for the poles? I understand the stresses of your pole design will be far more suitable to carbon fibre than poles which undergo a bend - however, it seems to me that the apex sections are still not exactly delivering a linear load straight down the poles. Add in strong crosswinds and it gets even more complicated.

2) I'm curious how it's possible to only have a 300g difference between a single-skin 3-pole summer design and a double-skin 4-pole design. I would have expected far more.

PS: Please consider looking into the physics of condensation-reduction benefits of aluminized fabrics. Like I've mentioned... that's my dream tent :)

Edited by dasbin on 06/07/2012 19:56:47 MDT.

People: You can't wait for the winter tent, you gotta buy the summer weight one so we can get TO the winter tent! So everybody buy a summer weight tent- they'll all end up set up once in the back yard, 'not liked', and gear swapped like everything else anyway.

Sierra Designs is about to have a $1500 tent, so even $1000 for "The Caffin Coffin" [;)] doesn't seem so bad.


AND HE SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE IT CONTAINS A LOT OF OPINION!!!

Way to go Rog!!

Barry, the tents haven't even been made yet. Isn't it standard when starting up a new venture to give one design a first shot to see what customer response will be like, and then build up from there? Not sure what you're getting at. At least the tents will now be available! That's more than we've had a chance at ever since Roger first started talking about the tents. (I've always been rather frustrated with the reviews comparing tents in which one of Roger's tents was used, declared the best of the lot, and then the readers never having access to one). I say it's time to rejoice! The criticisms of the tents can come after they go into production and we all get to try them out, no?

Miguel

I AM excited about the tents!! very much so

"The Caffin Coffin" came from the thread after the article, somebody was calling him Roger Coffin

And the 'Buy the summer one first" was from my understanding, they are gonna make the summer weight one first and if it sells, move on the the more expensive winter weight model.

I bet these things will be amazing

Congradulations, Roger! Well done.

Congratulations Roger.

It must give you a feeling of gratification to see your designs recognized by a high end manufacturer AND be asked to work with them.

Can't wait to see the summer tent.

+1 Barry!

Congratulations roger.

Roger,

After seeing your tents and gleaning from your insights for so many years, I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am for you!!!

What a compliment to you to have your design so highly praised by a manufacturer.

Let me take this opportunity to say thank you, as well, for all you share.

Todd

PS: I've always admired the efficient use of floor space in your designs.

Edited by funnymoney on 06/07/2012 20:12:07 MDT.

Congratulations, Roger. I wish you unbounded success.

What will the footprint dimensions be?

Very cool, Roger. Congrats!

The summer tent is what I'd get, so there's 1.

I don't care that they're made in China. If Roger isn't making them, and they're not made in my country, I don't really care where it's made so long as it's made well.

Hi Devion

> Any chance we'll get a BPL article on licensing a design or the production process?
Most likely. :-)
EARLY days so far.

Cheers

Hi Bradley

> 1) Do you have any concerns over using carbon fiber instead of aluminum for the poles?
Nope.
The blue summer tent has lasted for about 6 years, and there were other tents before that. A number of people have made copies and used them in the field as well.

> not exactly delivering a linear load straight down the poles
No, that is true, but they build Dreamliners out of carbon fibre ...
The keys here are to keep well within the limits of the CF tubing, and to use guy ropes.

> how it's possible to only have a 300g difference between a single-skin 3-pole summer
> design and a double-skin 4-pole design. I would have expected far more.
Well, all that you add with the winter tent is the inner tent fabric and one extra pole. The groundsheet was included in the sumemr tent. Figure on about 100 g for the extra pole, 120 g for the inner tent, and about 80 g for the extra door zips.

> condensation-reduction benefits of aluminized fabrics
That's more difficult. At present they only make aluminised acrylic-coated fabric at over 70 gsm (afaik). Way too heavy.

Cheers

Hi Michael

> What will the footprint dimensions be?
My tents have a groundsheet which is 2200 mm x ~1100 mm, but I would appreciate any comments about the length. I THINK that is long enough for most walkers. I can get a fair bit of gear across the foot end inside the groundsheet.

The width is just a little more than two average 3/4 length airmats (520 mm each). I can get gear down the two outside edges, between the mat and the groundsheet bucket wall, which keeps my quilt off the bucket wall - avoiding a cold wall against the quilt and any condensation.

The outside dimensions are larger of course: about 1260 mm wide at the pole tips and ~3.5 m overall length. Yes, the length of a tunnel tent is what everyone comments on: it's a bit high. However, note that you do NOT need a flat site that big! I have pitched the tent on a flat area little more than 2.2 m x 1.2 m: the vestibules floors were 'lumpy' but that was not a problem.

Cheers
(Edited to correct footprint width.)

Edited by rcaffin on 06/08/2012 04:53:53 MDT.

Any chance you might be looking to design a 1+ solo shelter?

"My tents have a groundsheet which is 2200 mm x ~1060 mm, but I would appreciate any comments about the length."

I think that is a good length considering the near vertical end walls (and assuming that the end bells are vestibules and not included in those dimensions.) But, too-short tents are one of my pet peeves and I'd gladly trade 50g for another 50mm length. :-)

Light weight aluminized silnylon must be available somewhere as I have an RBH jacket and Warmlite tent that both use it.

Cheers,

Mike

Roger,

Good new about your tents! Congrats!

I agree with Michael, a little extra length would be nice, say 90in.(2286mm) or so?

Also, I know you were just asking about the length, but the width at 1060mm (41in.) is going to be awfully tight for two. I can see how it works for you and your wife, but us Americans are fat, and we like our personal space :). My preferred width is ~50in (1270mm).

Cheers,

Roy

WELL DONE YOU!!!

My tents have a groundsheet which is 2200 mm x ~1060 mm, but I would appreciate any comments about the length.

I think those dimensions are ok for a genuine 2p lw tent, but I would not want to see any smaller.

Now, "summer" means different things if different parts of the world, so if you want any pre-production testing in the Scottish "summer"...

> Any chance you might be looking to design a 1+ solo shelter?
Oh, been there, done that, for both summer and winter. Ryan J has a custom winter one.

But, the weight efficiency is quite poor imho, and the design is not all that good either. The narrow width for one person clashes with the height requirement, unless you want a glorified bivy tube. I really cannot recommend it.

Cheers

Hi Roy and others

I really am interested in everyone's comments about the size.

> but the width at 1060mm (41in.) is going to be awfully tight for two.
But even a 'big' 3/4 length Therm-a-rest is only 520 mm wide. How much extra width do you need at the sides? Answers please!

Note correction to my previous posting: I should have written 1100 mm for the width. Sorry.

Cheers

But, the weight efficiency is quite poor imho, and the design is not all that good either. The narrow width for one person clashes with the height requirement, unless you want a glorified bivy tube. I really cannot recommend it.

That's what I was thinking when trying to imagine a single version of the tents. That's why the Akto has a cross-sectional pole, and the Rainbow has a pole that goes over the entire longitudinal length of the tent. With two poles in the present iteration of the Caffin tents the height needed to sit up would make the shelter too tall in relationship to the narrow width desired for a single person tent... the design only starts to work at the width of two people, or Roger's stated 1100 mm width.

Very nice to see this come to fruition Roger. If they need help with winter beta-testing...

What! A tent with no DAC involvement? That has to be against some international law. ;-)

Roger,
Congratulations!

>I really am interested in everyone's comments about the size.

> >but the width at 1060mm (41in.) is going to be awfully tight for two.
>But even a 'big' 3/4 length Therm-a-rest is only 520 mm wide. How much extra width do you need at the sides? Answers please!

I can only give my opinion, but I know my wife would share it. We have never felt comfortable in any standard 2p tent with possible exception of the Hilleberg Kaitum 2 which has a width listed at 55". Even this felt "cozy". The Scarp2 (52") and the Lunar Duo (54") felt cramped. We usually buy 3p tents just to have a bit more room for "gear management". In my perfect world there would be more length for gear to go at the feet if having a side entry, or more width for it to be on the sides if an end entry. My perfect world does not seem to exist in the 2p realm.

Wow 43"? Not a chance for us. If I had to pick an ideal width, it'd be about 60", but that's just us...and we are probably not in the ultralight target group your tent is aimed at.

Regardless of your final dimensions, best of luck on your collaboration with Easton!

Edited by BER on 06/08/2012 06:55:20 MDT.

Roger you have been playing with these things a lot longer than us. If you find 1100 mm adequate for you and your wife, with space down the sides for gear - that sounds more than adequate. Great news by the way. Keep us posted :)

Congrats, Roger. I'm waiting in a line that I hope will be long. At least behind me :-)

"But even a 'big' 3/4 length Therm-a-rest is only 520 mm wide. How much extra width do you need at the sides? Answers please!"


Hi Roger,
Congrats on the tent venture!

With regards to width, I can only speak for myself, but on a single skin tent I like lots of width to be able to keep away from the walls and the condensation that will inevitably accumulate there. Regardless of the tent design, ventilation etc my experience is condensation is often an issue when there is no wind etc. If I was inches from a wet wall my bag would get wet.

I believe your tents have mesh along the bottom so that does help however.

That's a bit narrow for comfortable two person use imho. I too would like to see 55-60" for the width. Two large pads would be a no go.

Congratulations, Roger. It must be very satisfying to see your design and your efforts come to fruition. I can't wait to see the production version.

I am also in the camp wanting a 55-60" width. And I like a bit of extra length, like maybe 88-90". I hate being cramped and bumping elbows with my buddy. The bit of extra room is nice when we get tent-bound during a prolonged storm.

"Easton is really stepping up their game lately. Good on them, and a fantastic opportunity for you Roger to share your expertise with the world!"

I was thinking pretty much the same thing when I saw that Easton was the company that licensed Roger's design.

Easton may not have that much experience designing tents, but that doesn't make them stupid... they obviously know a good design when they see one :)

Congrats, Roger... this is definitely good news!

Congrats. That's exciting news for lots of folks hanging out around this site.

Can't say that I would ever have much need for one of your shelters for where I live and do most of my hiking, but I sure do admire them. They look like works of art and the attention to detail is top notch.

I wish you the best of luck with this endeavor and can't wait to see future trip reports from all the BPLers putting their new "Caffin Coffins" to the test.

I love sewing tarps, but this is a bit more than I can sew.

So I will be saving up. Good on you!

> What! A tent with no DAC involvement? That has to be against some international law.
Chuckle. But 10 - 15 years ago one would have said the same about 'a tent with no Easton poles'. There was Easton, and there were the rest trailing behind.

> Easton may not have that much experience designing tents,
Ah well, but they make some good carbon fibre. And that I think is where a lot of the tent pole market is heading today.

As my experience has shown (to me at least), with the appropriate redesign to handle the change in material, carbon fibre now replaces even 7075 T9 at the high-quality UL end of the market. (OK, I am biased!) Granted, for the novice market a softer aluminium might be still a good idea, to handle the inevitable prangs and mistakes - maybe.

Comment: it may not sound all that glamorous, but the continuing advances in fabric and fibre technology even today are still quite exciting. Compared to the cotton japara fabric of my youth ...

Cheers
PS: I am still reading all the comments about dimensions.

Roger, how long will it be before you have lost all of your objectiveness?

I mean, if those royalty checks are slow to flow, will you become the pitch-man for the CAFFIN-O-MATIC TENT? Will we start to see late night television commercials with your smiling face?

--B.G.--

Hi Daniel

> condensation is often an issue when there is no wind etc. If I was inches from a wet
> wall my bag would get wet.
> I believe your tents have mesh along the bottom so that does help however.

I most certainly agree. This is a key point. When your bag rubs against the wall it will get wet, but I dealt with that problem ages ago. The fly itself is a long way from the bucket edge of the groundsheet, and condensation does not transfer. A diagram will help.


The groundsheet bucket wall is about 150 mm high. Above that, going up to the fly, is the (pale blue dashes) netting wall shown by A. The netting leans back so that water does not run down it from the fly onto the groundsheet. That means that the width of the fly is noticeably larger than the width of the groundsheet. If the groundsheet is 1100 mm wide, the fly is more like 1260 mm wide. The extra volume inside the tent is significant.

What this looks like in practice is something like this.


Note that this shows V7, which was just a bit too big for good wind resistance. The current design has advanced to V10, with the top dropping from a peak of 1100 mm down to about 950 mm. Not a lot of changes, just small refinements.

The big question is whether to go for palatial luxury with the extra weight, or for a lighter and slightly more compact and stable design. Comments invited.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 06/08/2012 16:54:24 MDT.

Roger- about widths. I would need/use a tent like this when hiking with my wife or one of the kids and my wife demands a wide pad (for comfort) and I'm 6'2" so I need some length. I also use a large/wide pad so the pad heights match up. We usually take NeoAirs unless it is shoulder season and then its the Expeds (true 25 inchers).

Given that, I would want the inside dimensions to be at least 1400mm -/+ in width and the length to be 2000mm +/- or more. This is of course doesn't include the vestibules.

I can see that sizing issues can be a make or break deal for success.

I'm excited to see what you come up with- I'd be happy to be one of your testers!

Congratulations on getting your tents to market!

I do agree that they sound a bit narrow for us North Americans (large fellows). My Big Agnes UL2 is 52 inches wide across the top and 42 inches at the foot end. Unless you are trying to limit your market to "intimate companions" only, I'd suggest adding a bit of width. My son and I occasionally share the Copper Spur and the 52 inch width is about as tight as we could endure. We are both 6 ft tall and 190+ pounds.

In comparison, my Fly Creek UL1 is 42 inches wide across the top end. I can't imagine trying to squeeze another person into that width.

Aren't those pre bent poles a bit fiddly to insert?

The Caffin Coffin name game is unfortunate and too much like Melville.I think the Tunnel Vision Summer , and Tunnel Vision Winter, are more like it.

From the look of Roger's photo of the V7 interior I think that the width is plenty wide enough for anyone who uses the tent, including "bigger" folk. I really don't see why I, who am not "big", should carry all that extra unnecessary weight just so some bigger people can live in palatial luxury. This is BPL, after all, and I'd like to keep the weight down as much as possible, while still accommodating basic spatial needs of bigger folk. Remember, for anyone who is smaller (and there are smaller folk out there, probably just as many as bigger folk), especially women, all that extra width weight adds up, and one of the defining factors of Roger's designs is their light weight. Please think of the smaller folk, too, and try to bow to a compromise. You can't have one design and only design for the biggest and strongest. In checking about 10 different tunnel tent designs around the Web, from a number of different manufacturers, 52cm to 53cm width of the inner seems to be about average.

Also, it would be nice to, for once, not only cater to the American market.

>Also, it would be nice to, for once, not only cater to the American market.
A big plus one from me.

Edited by roberth on 06/08/2012 19:32:49 MDT.

+1 Miguel.

Call it 48"- two 25s squeeze/ or/ two 20s have a little room.



Name it the Easton CaffinE. (caffeine)


mmmm...coffee

Congratulations Roger!
From what i can discern here on BPL you are a thoughtful and practical man who uses scientific method and logic to design and test things.
It is nice to see something created by you get recognition.
I have a question.
Assuming the tents sell well, are there any plans on introducing your Mountain Poncho Design?

In answer to the post above regarding pre-bent poles and the ease of assembly.. I had a Sierra Designs Divine Light back in the 90's that used Easton aluminum poles shock corded with pre-bent joints between the segments.
It was quite easy to assemble the Divine light as the tent itself was sewn in an arc.
The arc of the poles slipped into the tent sleeves like putting a glove on a hand: There was a little tension at the half way point but then the poles would just slide into place in the terminal grommet with ease.

It is really great to see a well thought out and executed design make the "big leagues".
Wish you all the best mate!

PS. The "Caffin Baffin" in honor of baffin island comes to mind as a great name. :)

Edited by Ice-axe on 06/08/2012 19:41:12 MDT.

Regarding width, it's probably important to consider the design goals of the tent first and foremost.

There are plenty of big, unstable, heavy tents out there.

If adding width would make your tents even moderately less stable and moderately heavier, then I think they have a bit less of a reason to exist in the marketplace.

I say this all rather hesitantly, because I like a bit of extra room, too. Especially with another person.

If they would still be lighter than just about anything else and still stable "enough" in particularily terrible conditions (which is really the goal of the tents, right?) then maybe it is worth considering at least a bit of a compromise. I'm not sure.
But the stability is a very important point in consideration.

To me, the solution that makes the most sense is for the summer tent to perhaps be a bit larger, but the winter tent your normal 42" or thereabouts. In the winter survivability trumps everything, and weight just below that. In the summer skin-out weights are significantly lighter anyway, so a few more grams on a larger tent could make sense.

Edited by dasbin on 06/08/2012 20:32:01 MDT.

Congrats on finding a manufacturer and best wishes on the outcome.

I'm not so likely to be a buyer because my camping is rarely in places exposed enough to experience winds it's designed for (at those winds I'm worried about being crushed by falling trees!) but I'll wait to see the cost.

But I'll still add my two cents worth about size:

* mountaineers will value storm worthiness very highly, roominess be d*mned
* ditto for far north tundra travelers
* ditto for backpackers who strongly dislike bailing on a trip due to weather
* as Miguel said, smaller folks will value the reduced weight of a narrower tent
* tent-mates who want to be physically close won't care so much about the 1100mm width but I fear that Roger's design iterations have all happened in an environment where that's usually the case. I know he often mentions the warmth advantages of being together under a shared quilt.
* I have slept in tents 84 inches long (about 2" short of Roger's 2200mm) and found them "just adequate". I'm 72 inches tall when upright but 76 inches long when prone (lay down with legs straight and relax with your toes just touching a wall then place a book next to the top of your head and measure the distance). Add twice the thickness of your sleeping bag to that.
* his generous vestibules on each end should handle gear storage and provide a sense of more length
* folks with even very mild claustrophobia express discomfort in small tents
* I imagine there's an expectation of some minimum sales potential before the manufacturer says yes to the final project

In the end, it'll be up to Roger and the manufacturer to agree or not agree on a final design.

Congratulatons, Roger. You picked the one company that can provide good quality, strong carbon poles and alloy elbows without going overboard on the weight.

Someone asked about 1+ size. For me, that's about the 41", and thanks for the review and diagram of the 'bucket' floor attachment.

Already, from the comments on this thread, the pressure to make the tents wider can be felt. That will make them heavier. No more 1.2 kilograms. Hope you can resist this pressure. Maybe a + model for larger Northamericans would be a good compromise.
Good luck. Hope you get a lot of enjoyment from this venture.

I'm glad that I can eat what I want and get a tent made around whatever dimensions I may be.

Eat it non-Americans!!






Hangs head in shame



EDIT- Samuel- that wasn't directed at you!!

Edited by WoodenWizard on 06/08/2012 22:25:46 MDT.

> Aren't those pre bent poles a bit fiddly to insert?
Nope. No trouble at all.
They slide in and out of the silnylon sleeves very easily in fact. I think that you can blame the slippery surface of the silicon coating for that. Virtually no abrasion inside the sleeves over 6 years use either.

The only time I have any trouble is when there has been a cold snap in the night (-10 C for instance) and a wet pole gets frozen to the inside of the sleeve. But this is not a problem in practice. Under those conditions I wear gloves (they are essential for survival!) and just briefly wiggle the sleeve over the pole. It turns out that the ice has very little bond to the silnylon. Then they come out easily.

Cheers

Hi Bob

> Roger, how long will it be before you have lost all of your objectiveness?
A very long time indeed.
The contract does not include a royalty. There is a small licence fee for the design.

> Will we start to see late night television commercials with your smiling face?
Sounds like a post-midnight horror show to me. :-)

Cheers

Hi Matthew

> Assuming the tents sell well, are there any plans on introducing your Mountain Poncho Design?

You know, I had not even thought about that one. Oh well, I am open to offers.

Cheers

Roger, thanks for all you do for this community. It's about time you get recognized for some of your designs and contributions.

BTW, guess you can't use the accronym "TT" for TunnelTent since Henry's already got that covered!

"The contract does not include a royalty."

That's a shame, but I understand that you Aussies aren't really big on royalty, anyway. Maybe they could make you a duke or something. Roger, Duke of Tunnels.

--B.G.--

Hi Roger,
Thanks for the pic and diagram, they really describe the width well (I'm a visual person).

I had not seen a pic of your tents in a while and did not realize the mesh on the side extended that far up. Also, I was not aware that the side walls get wider for a bit as you go up the wall. That really changes things! I'm used to single wall tents that immediately slope inwards as you go up.

I think the relatively narrow footprint width could actually work quite well with that design.

Cheers.

Dan

Roger - congratulations or as they say in your neck of the woods, Good on ya, mate!

I think your length is fine, given that your ends are vertical or nearly so. I think your width is narrow, though. For two guys in two bags, my experience is that at 48" we are touching the walls, even in a tent with very step sides. Now I understand your construction, so I think the 48" (about 1200 mm) would work with that configuration, giving usable floor width roughly equivalent to a BD lighthouse which is 52" with steep but still inward-sloping walls. I know that most of your use of your tents is with your lovely wife in the cozy comfort of a double quilt - have you ever shared one (the tent I mean, not the quilt) with a 6-2, 200 lb guy?

Hi Paul

> have you ever shared one (the tent I mean, not the quilt) with a 6-2, 200 lb guy?
Errr - no! :-)

The difference the outwards sloping walls make is not obvious until you actually see it in practice. We fill that narrow gap between the edge of the mat and the outwards sloping groundsheet wall with stuff-sacks of gear or food. Just gear or food bags which would normally sit in your pack or at the foot of the tent. That means I don't even touch the side wall of the groundsheet much, and the stuff sacks also act as a side wall of insulation when it is cold. It does mean that my mat is touching my wife's mat.

Unfortunately I don't have a good photo which shows this. Lots of photos of the doorway and me cooking, lots of my wife in the tent eating dinner, but her quilt and mine usually mask the gear at the side.

Anyhow, everyone's comments are appreciated.

Cheers

I think a good idea would be to get some folks together and some sleeping bags and have them lie down in the tent and see how they like it. Market research, if you will. Always a good idea to get some independent opinions on the product during the design phase. What works perfectly for you and your uses may need to be tweaked a bit to suit the larger needs of the market. I can tell you that I and my usual backcountry companions would not be comfortable with our mats touching each other - we need a good 6" in between for elbow room - literally elbow room!

Congratulations.

Would Easton be interested in making your lightweight H-frame pack designs with their tubing?

Hi Alan

Hum - packs ... dunno.

Con: There are an awful lot of pack manufacturers out there
Pro: But not many making good UL external frame packs (actually, none)

Way into the future I think, but thanks for the idea.

Cheers

Zpacks Exo? I'd definitely like to see more options in this regard.

Call it a 3 person tent(like all tentmaker) if you want but go for a size good for the majority of people that use tent for two.So 60" wide in my opinion.

I want it ultralight. Keep the 3-season tent narrow Roger. It's good for sleeping two, a palace for one. It's a tunnel with steep walls, so it's possible to get out without crawling on your tent mate.

I don't see the problem here.

I agree.

Go with the dimensions you've come up with Roger. You've come to them because they work. And these are niche products. If people want more room, buy a different, bigger, heavier tent. I want this tent, and have, for like, forever!

I wouldn't worry about appealing to the masses too much. There are plenty of tents out there for the masses. I can see these things developing a CULT following amongst hardcore bushwalkers heading to the wetter, windier parts of Aus and NZ. Its top of the list for my next Tassie trip.

Hi Adam

Thanks for the comments.

Checking my gear, it seems that I need to add about 100 mm at both the head and foot ends of a body to allow for the thickness of the bag or quilt. Beyond that the fabric touches the end walls of the groundsheet (NOT the tent), but that does not collect condensation in my experience. So a 2,200 mm long groundsheet caters for a person up to 2,000 m (6' 7") tall - which is going to cover an awful lot of the population.

Looking at many other tents on the market it seems that there aren't many with a groundsheet longer than 2,200 mm, which is encouraging. It should be noted that the longer you make the groundsheet, the bigger the footprint or tent site required. That can be a problem in some places. However, not final.

What is more important is to ensure the tent is wide enough for two people - plus some gear down the outside edges. Having some gear space at the sides is very important in my experience. The gear insulates the side of your quilt and stops you rolling off the mat/pad as well. My previous suggestion of a width of 1100 mm seems to be definitely inadequate. (Mistake, actually.)

I don't think there is any chance of a 60" width for the groundsheet on the summer tent - this is meant to be UL after all, but it certainly should be a bit wider than the 1100 mm. Of course, as the tent gets wider it gets heavier. But 1250 mm width might be more appropriate? That gives ~100 mm on the outside of a mat, each side, for gear.

Staying under 1.2 kg for tent+poles will mean we have to look very carefully at the fabrics used. That will take some time.

By the way - while my shoulders are wide enough, my feet aren't. So in practice there is an acre of space down at the foot end of the tent for any amount of gear.

Cheers

A 60 inch (1524mm) floor width IS a bit much to ask for in this shelter. 1250mm would be noticeably more comfortable than 1100mm.

But I gotta continue to disagree about length. When upright our feet are perpendicular to our legs, not so when prone ... feet point away from the head. The result being that we're longer when prone than we're tall when upright. That is easily measured.

I'm not arguing in favor of any particular length ... only about the height of the person who will fit on the 2200mm long groundsheet.

Allowing for 100mm on each end seems very reasonable for the thickness of a sleeping bag that'd be used in the summer tent. Perhaps 130mm for a bag that'd more likely be used in a winter tent? Even more if your audience includes those who camp well below 0F.

Hi Roger,
Congratulations on linking up with Easton to bring your tents to the UL masses! Count me in for a winter tent. :-) I'll hand the Olympus down to my kids... Width won't be an issue for us as my husband is the most important part of my cold weather sleep system.
Looking forward to 2014!

The only problem I see is that it's haunted, hopefully that's a friendly ghost standing behind your wife.

A very respected 2p tent here is the TN Vogager Superlite. This has groundsheet dimensions of 2060mm long, 1160mm wide at the sholders and 880mm at the feet. It is quite big enough for a pair of 6'+ guys.
You tent is much wider and higher at the foot end, and has outward sloping walls for the first 300mm up, so you really don't need any wider at the sholder.
You don't need lots of extra length either, just to accomodate a 6'6" back/front sleeper.

Good tents are expensive so for a given weight I'd rather have more durable materials than an extra 100mm I could manage without (and I'm 6'1").

Hi Brett

> The only problem I see is that it's haunted, hopefully that's a friendly ghost standing
> behind your wife.
Yeah - he keeps the Drop Bears away.

Cheers

Hi Stuart

> A very respected 2p tent here is the TN Vogager Superlite.
Thanks for the dimensions. Very interesting.

Cheers

Your design is extremely effiecent at maximizing height over the area of your footprint. I think we should keep that in mind when comparing that to other tents. I personally, like your v10 dimensions and vote for them -- the picture provide makes it look like a palace compared to my 2 person tent.

Regardless, it will be knocked if it can't fit (2) 25" airmats side by side -- I bet 1250mm would hold two of these. For the length, I wonder would it cost to have a R and L option?? Say on for 6" and one for 6'6"ish....

I'll only add that in my experience with the two people I hike with, they are 6'4" and 6'7". I'm barely 5'10", but can't use a multi-person tent with either of them if the tent is too short. There are many people over 6' and probably on into the 6'2-6'4" range. If you add a measely 4" on each end of that you have 6'10" to 7'0" as a total length for the inner tent.

Hi James

> it will be knocked if it can't fit (2) 25" airmats side by side -
Please tell - where does one find a 25" (635 mm) airmat??? The only mats around 25" that I have ever seen have been huge and very heavy car-camping things. What have I missed?

As far as I can make out, the standard width for a walker's mat seems to be ~520 mm (20.5"), with some coming in narrower (eg NeoAir).

Cheers

Hi Warren

You problem puzzles me. 6' 7" is ~2,000 mm. Add 100 mm at each end for down, and you get 2,200 mm. Why can't you get two of you into a tent of that length? What am I missing?

Cheers

Roger, the Exped Synmat7 is approx 25" inflated and when hiking in the North Cascades almost any time of years it can get close to 0*c. One would/could use a summer tent and their sleeping pad could be a Synmat or the like.
My concern also is it appears that more manufactures might be coming out with lightweight large/deluxe sized pads.
If you ignore this you might be narrowing you market more that necessary.
Yet, looking at the outward slope of the tub floor this all might be a moot issue that will be taken care of with your stated adjustment to 1250 mm.
I think the length is just fine (I'm 190cm tall) and I find no problems- the vestibules take care of gear storage and such.
For someone 7 foot tall, they can stick their feet into the vestibule. The door screens and a little extra netting will still keep the bugs at bay and everyone is happy.

We were supposed to go metric when I was in grade school. The effect was the two liter bottle we have for soda (and not much else I can think of). So, you'll forgive me if your measurements add up to what I chimed in with. Just looking at it from inches and feet. So, sounds like your tent will work for most. If Shaq or Kobi or some other tall dudes take up UL backpacking, they can get there own custom made from you.

Roger, good on ya!

Hi Tad

> the Exped Synmat7 is approx 25" inflated
Ah ... I measured the Exped Synmat UL 7 at 520 mm, inflated. For the details, see
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/exped_downmat_pump_synmat_ul

Hum????

Cheers

Hi Roger

Another 2p dbl wall tunnel tent that I own in the Vaude Ferret 1 Ultralight (the original version). This really is palatial for two and altho' the extra space is nice, it comes in at a hefty 2.0kg.



You may also be interested in Lightwave tents (http://www.lightwave.uk.com/en/tents_overview.php) as they specialise in quality tunnel tents for 3/4 season use, but again >2kg.

cheers

Hi Stuart

> This really is palatial for two
While only 1250 x 2250 mm ? I would have thought so myself. Only a single vestibule. But how does it go as a winter tent? (Yeah, only 2 poles, I know.)

Cheers

>> This really is palatial for two
> While only 1250 x 2250 mm ? I would have thought so myself
Am I missing something here? (sarcasm? :-)

> Only a single vestibule
Yes, the vestibule could be bigger to fit 2 packs, 2 pairs boots and still have room to cook

> But how does it go as a winter tent?
+ roomy
+ double wall
- small vestibule
-- susceptible to turbulent wind

End on to the wind it's good, but in turbulent wind it is suceptible to strong gusts, as you might guess. However, the only damage inflicted has been a little permanent bend in the poles. I rate it as a good 3 season tent, but it's not a winter mountain tent.
Edit to add: I almost forgot, it pitches inner and fly together, which makes it very quick to put up. Many times I have been very thankful of that whilst been eaten by midges!

Edited by Scunnered on 06/12/2012 15:28:03 MDT.

Roger, most airmat come with various different size options...typically including a L.

Neoairs, prolite, big agnes...all have 24"or 25" option...

The measurements you link to in you SOTM report are for a small mat - they have a 26" wide option as well.

The actual width may be less of course.

This is great. Congratulations Roger! I have been interested in trying tunnel designs for adverse climates. Now I am really interested!

Congratulations and Best Wishes, Roger. Couldn't happen to a nicer person. Hope your venture is profitable and personally rewarding.

Roger, here is a picture of my mat inflated, it is approx 62cm



The end of the tape looks like it is sticking over but it is accurately measuring the side of the mat (optical illusion because of the curvature of the mat)

Hi Tad and James

OK, I see now. But those are the deluxe versions, and this is Backpacking Light.
Ah well, what's a UL guy to do?
Hum .... how about 1250? With outwards sloping side walls?

Cheers

Hi Stuart

Larger vestibule - understood. We put our packs in the rear vestibule where they are out of the way and act as a bit of a wind break too. They are still accessible there from inside.

In really bad weather we have hauled one pack to the downwind end and packed everything up into our packs inside the tent. Then, fully dressed for the weather, we exit and pull the tent down, and stick it on top of my pack.

> in turbulent wind it is suceptible to strong gusts, as you might guess.
To be expected with only 2 poles. But with double guys that is partly solved.
'Double guys': one to corner elbow and one 1/2 way down, as shown in diagram several pages back.

Cheers

Roger, 1250 cm with the outward sloping walls, (as I stated earlier) should be sufficient.

Yes I understand the "Light" part and I'm happy to use a narrower pad; but everyone seems to only make a "long" in a wide width and I hate having my head and now my feet hanging off the pad so my only option is the LW or deluxe.

It is one of those trade-off that I just have to live with- though just a few years ago I could sleep on a torso pad and my pack, but the bones are getting older and refuse to stay quite unless they get their extra padding.

I don't need the Exped when cowboy camping or when its very warm and can get by with a NeoAir- but I don't need a tent then either, a tarp or bivy works just fine. Thus the 1250cm would be appreciated.

60 inch good for me,my wife and my son during summer.And good for 2 "just" friend during winter...(last call for 60"!)

The MSR mutha hubba is 68" wide. its a heavy 3man

Rog wants to make a light 2 man

Not to b an A$$ but 60" is ridiculous for a LW 2person tent. by like, a foot


touching elbows doesn't mean you wanna "do it" with your tent mate

One thing to remember when discussing dimensions: the longer, wider and higher the tent, the less stable it is in bad weather.

Some of my early models had just two poles, but that left the roof really moving when the wind blew from the side. Not so good.

Cheers

This discussion reminds me of an old article about choosing a canoe.

It offered that design choices affected three outcomes: 1) speed 2) maneuverability 3) stability and suggested the reader look at these in the form of a triangle with one outcome at each corner. Design choices place the canoe somewhere inside the triangle. The closer it is any of the corners the better the outcome belonging to that corner. The farther it is from any corner, the worse the outcome for that corner.

The point of the article was:
1) you cannot maximize more than one of the three outcomes
2) you can do pretty well for two of the outcomes by making some compromises on those two and large compromises on the third
3) If you value all three the best you can do is mediocre on all three

Shelter designers have more than three outcomes but the big four might be 1) storm worthiness 2) weight 3) ventilation 4) volume . So a tetrahedron would replace the triangle in this analogy. You still can't maximize them all.

I believe that Roger ranks their importance in the order I listed them above and he has explained very well his purposes in doing so. The direction he is headed is proper for that ranking. There are already other good choices that meet the needs of other rankings, why should be bother to compete in those niches?

Just remember ... "We can have it all" is a myth.

I also think 60 inches would be huge. 50 is more than enough. 44 is about minimum, but since its usually just me and my wife even 40 is doable.

I know things look different in person, but that picture of your wife in the tent made it look huge.

Congratulations.

Hi Jim

> 1) storm worthiness 2) weight 3) ventilation 4) volume
> I believe that Roger ranks their importance in the order I listed them
You know, that's very good. Yes, you are right about how I rank them.
I might add 5) ease of pitching in bad weather.

Cheers

And I very much agree with the order of the denominations of importance.

This discussion reminds me of an old article about choosing a canoe.

reminds me of several people trying to agree on buying a shampoo or renting a movie...

Edited by butuki on 06/14/2012 21:19:36 MDT.

Roger,

Wondering how the tent making/planning is going?

Just thoughts not requests:

Not that it matters much but it's too bad tents couldn't be a bit like some sleeping bags where you can order various widths and lengths. My current tent is 50" wide. I am guilty of using a beefy 25" 16oz Neoair trekker. It's injury prevention for my tent-mate from knee-hi's as a side sleeper. I don't need 25", more like 22 or 23 would be splendid but I have yet to find one of that width. A reasonable height is hard to come by for me. At my height of 5'8", a tent that can occupy 6'7" is heaps. Not that I dislike extra room but just wonder what the difference would translate to if it was used in width instead. If I where looking for a tent it would be more advantageous to have a short wide one. For what ever reason my hiking companions tend to be my height or less. Of course, it's the real priority's you've outlined before that are most important. Typically, I am the only wide pad sleeper so a width of 1250 works.

Wondering what the potential weight difference would be narrow verses wide, short verses tall? Perhaps it is lighter to go longer than wider?

-christy

Edited by nuggetwn on 10/06/2012 02:39:32 MDT.

Tent planning proceeds.
It takes a surprisingly LONG time to go from concept to available in shops when a major mfr is involved (as opposed to a cottage mfr who makes a few at a time). At this stage I do not expect to it in the shops for a year or more. The steps are roughly thus:
Go through prototypes until satisfactory (we are here)
Get Sales Samples to show gear shops
Get orders from shops
Contract for bulk production
Get delivery, ship to shops

As it is a high performance tent ('cause I say so), we have to train the Asian sewing company how to make it. That takes time. Some techniques commonly used on cheap pop-ups are unsuitable. For instance, bar-tacking little bits of webbing to a light unreinforced silnylon hem just will not do. I will update when I can.

cheers

Thanks for the update, Roger!

Yeah, as Christy mentions, being able to modularize the design for a more custom width and length is probably not doable at this point. the delivery of such an animal would be significantly delayed, though there are several companies that offer it as add on components. None offer it at the production level, unless you count scaling up or down, such as with the Stephensons 2r or 2c models. A nice thought, though.

Minimum 2300mm inside length ((maybe not over the full width, but for the majority of the width)! Someone said most tents are shorter than that, and I agree, most are to short!

My fall/winter bag is 2400 long with the hood flat, maybe 2300 with the hood done up. I am 195 cm / 6'5" tall, and there are plenty of taller people around.
The last thing I want in a single wall tent or any winter tent, is touching the walls with my hood or foot of bag, getting wet from condensation and reducing warmth from compressing the down.

Could you add a length-wise diagram same as you did for cross-section?

Width 1250 mm. At least in the shoulder-knee region. Sure, regular pads are only 20"/ 51cm wide, but most people hang out over the sides somewhere or another. You said there are no lightweight wide pads? In the winter I use a long and wide closed cell foam pad, at 25". And then you need to add the sleeping bag loft to that, easily 100mm on each side. I know you have tried it out, but some of us are bigger than you, or don't like to snuggle quite so close to our tent mates.

+2 on setting up your tent, getting two guys over 6'2/185cm and their three-season bags and start taking pictures, even better, let them sleep in it.

Edited by Tjaard on 10/06/2012 13:43:54 MDT.

Hi Tjaard

The length question is not easy. My understanding from Easton is that a 2200 mm groundsheet (not counting walls) satisfies something like 98% or 99% of the market. That makes catering to the extremes (eg your 6' 5") a bit uncommercial. Remember that the factory is making hundreds of these at a time, and to change the length would require new patterns for a lot of the tent. In a commercial situation, that becomes very expensive. It's a problem and I don't have a solution yet.

Could one get a custom mod to the length of the middle section after the tent has been made? A real kludge to do, and careful seam sealing would be needed, but at least that remains possible. Pretty horrible, I agree.

> The last thing I want in a single wall tent or any winter tent, is touching the
> walls with my hood or foot of bag, getting wet from condensation and reducing
> warmth from compressing the down.
Agreed, but the winter tent is not quite that bad. We put gear down the sides to separate the groundsheet wall from the quilt (or SB), so we don't get condensation down the sides anyhow. That works very well. I haven't noticed any condensation at the head end from the groundsheet wall either. I think that is because it does not form there; rather it forms on the roof, which is quite some distance away. The foot end for most of us has gear across it as well.

> some of us are bigger than you, or don't like to snuggle quite so close to our tent mates.
Yeah, understood, although I have noticed that at -20 C warmth does become a bit more important than anything else!
Sorry, but I think changing the width is not going to be easy. That would require huge changes to the design of the poles and everything.

Cheers

Hello Roger,

To respond to you:

"My understanding from Easton is that a 2200 mm groundsheet satisfies something like 98% or 99% of the market
The issue there is whether we believe a large company like Easton, accurately assesses the needs of serious outdoor users. If they did, why haven't any of them made a tent like yours?

On the other hand, 2200 might be enough for me too, if the walls aren't touching at that length. My experience is that any tent under 2300 mm leads to touching the walls, not a huge deal on a double wall tent, but enormous on a singlewall.

I had the same thought about width, but when I saw your diagram, I saw how the walls are much further out than that. That is why I asked you for a diagram of the lengthwise cross-section, to see how the clearance is over the feet and head. If there is ~2100mm of length at 300 mm above the ground, it will probably be fine for me and others of similar size as me.

... and to change the length would require new patterns for a lot of the tent. In a commercial situation, that becomes very expensive

That was someone else suggesting different sizes. I would never expect a large commercial tent to be offered in lengths or widths, although it would be great!

Edited by Tjaard on 10/06/2012 21:05:16 MDT.

I just want to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I agree with the points that were made about keeping the dimensions similar (if not identical) to your previous tents. If it works for your wife and you, then it will work for my wife and me. I think there are several reasons for this:

1) This will not (at least for me) replace my current two person tent. There are plenty of roomy ultralight two person tents out there. They are great, but they are not tents I would use in really bad weather. Having a very storm worthy tent would compliment my existing two person tent; so much so that the tighter dimensions wouldn't matter.

2) I know lots of guys who share a tent, but they don't share two person tents. In fact, they won't even look at a two person tent. They use three person tents. Obviously, some of that is marketing (and a mistake on their part) but that means that even if you (or Easton) market a tent as 2+ or "roomy two person" it probably won't be used by them. At least, it won't be used by them for summer time hiking.

3) As mentioned by someone else, hard core climbers and hikers are willing to squeeze into a tent.

4) For the same reason that big guys don't share a two person tent, a lot of big guys buy two person tents for solo use. A very storm-worthy, very light two person tent would appeal to a lot of solo winter campers.

5) Steep sides make a huge difference. A lot of the pads out there are very thick, which means that a teepee (or mid) style tent has to have a lot of width just to make for a reasonable amount of space. This tent is the opposite.

In other words, I would definitely buy this tent for my wife and me (on the rare occasions where we want to backpack to some place windy). I would also use it for my own purposes in the winter months.

Hi Tjaard

> If they did, why haven't any of them made a tent like yours?
That's a very good question, but there are several answers.
* The vast majority of Americans buying a tent want it for sheltered sites in the summer months. For that matter, they don't use it very often anyhow.
* A tunnel tent is more expensive to make than a pop-up, and therefore harder to sell.
* The Asian factories in general don't know how to make a tunnel, but they can churn out pop-ups dead easy. (Check your local supermarket.)
* Tunnels are readily available from countries where the weather is reliably unreliable, such as Northern Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

Of course, I could add that Easton have seen the light and want to sell one.

Yes, I think you might find the 2200 mm length inside the tent would be enough, even for your 6' 5" (1.96 cm)

This shows the side view of the summer tent diagrammatically. The black lines are the poles and the fly. The dark blue lines are the walls of the groundsheet. The red line is you in your sleeping bag (well, sort of!). As you can see, the walls are a long way away: much more than 300 mm.
Easton's comment was that the tent looked HUGE; I had to point out that the groundsheet area was actually the same as many of their current models.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 10/07/2012 15:18:03 MDT.

Bring back the design of the Early Winters Omnipotent (c.1978).

Now, that was one bombproof tent. Great when the winds were howling outside.

--B.G.--

Bob,
'twas a mite difficult getting in and out of those things, what with the several lines in the way that had to be unclipped and reclipped, and if you had to get out in a blow, forget it. Nowadays, they would be the separating line-locks instead of heavier ALU buckle/clips, but still a nuisance. None of that with Roger's tents - much better design for a tunnel tent. Bet you had less occasion to get in and out in those days - hah!

"several lines in the way that had to be unclipped and reclipped"

I don't remember that at all. I do remember stepping over or crawling under some lines.

I remember that there were three of us sleeping inside one, and it seemed spacious.

--B.G.--

Thanks for the diagram Roger. What is at the end of the ground sheet? Mesh door in the summer model, fabric door in the winter one?

Yes, I believe that for people up to almost 2m tall, that would be sufficient length, due to the fact that the head and foot are not touching the fly, and do not slope inwards.

My earlier comment was based on my experience, including tunnels, but those tents all sloped in to some degree or another, except for one 3 pole tunnel I had about 18 years ago, which was great as far as space was concerned.


Ps I am only 195 cm, but I think it sounds silly to say I am 6'4.7" in the US, so to round it off I make it 6'5".

Omnipotent
Maybe there is a strong element of nostalgia here..
No doubt at the time it would have been a great tent but taste and sizes (human sizes...) have changed a lot since then.
Can't find very much about it but the maximum height right at the door was 38" sloping particularly for the inner quite a bit from there on.
As for the width I would say that 3 sleeping on their side fitted in but not all that well, definitely not wide enough for 3 mats.
it was around 6 lbs, so again light for the time but not that much now.
you may get a better idea of the size and the obstacle course Samuel was referring to by looking at this shot :

This one is the SL version , 1 less pole , a bit shorter and 1" narrower at the front.
Note the size of the guy compared to the inner.

Edited by Franco on 10/08/2012 04:39:31 MDT.

> Bring back the design of the Early Winters Omnipotent (c.1978).
Yup. That one was featured in my series on tunnel tents.

Cheers

Hi Tjaard

> What is at the end of the ground sheet? Mesh door in the summer model, fabric door in the winter one?
Exactly.
Both tents can be LIVED in.

Cheers

Hi Franco

Interesting. The pictures I have in part 2 of the series show 4 hoop poles and a different entry. Different models apparently.

cheers

Roger you are correct. That was the Omnipotent SL...
53" wide at the front (the std was 54") 88" long (std 93" L) 39" wide at the back (std was 42 ")
The std came with and without vestibule, 31' sq without , 42.2' sq with.
This is the Omnipotent with vestibule :


BTW, I have to post and then edit to add a photo...

Edited by Franco on 10/08/2012 04:38:20 MDT.

Yes, Franco, the bigger one is the one that I remember from 1978. Three of us slept in one, although we were staggered along the length of it. I think that it was semi-heavy, also. Maybe 9-10 pounds?

Now I think that Early Winters is getting its tent design services outsourced from Australia.

--B.G.--

Oh yes, very fond memories of the original Omnipotent. It wasn't just bombproof, the baffling system made it like wearing an air filled sleeping bag over your sleeping bag. I've slept in one in Yellowstone in winter, with lows at -40, and lived to tell the tale...but terrible summer tent. Just too warm.

Roger's winter design is more like the MacPac Olympus, but much lighter and probably more robust due to the very cool pole design. I will be saving for that one at least, and maybe the summer version too. The Olympus is also a very robust, well tested design. Well, at least well tested in NZ!

Really enjoying the tent updates & diagrams. Nice to hear the behind the scenes info. The whole process intrigues me.

Thanks :)

Loving the Omnipotent. A couple of hours MYOG work and you could have your very own smiley caterpillar to go to sleep in every night.

> A couple of hours MYOG work
I WISH!
It used to take me many days of careful work for each tent.

Cheers

I WISH!
It used to take me many days of careful work for each tent.

Not to make the whole tent, but to add some antenna (osmeterium), a couple of eyes and a smile to the Omnipotent. It would take me months to make a tent, possibly years :).

It takes time to make the tent depending upon the size and I like the idea of making mesh doors ion the summer and the fabric doors in the winter
-------------------
URL deleted
Roger Caffin

Edited by rcaffin on 10/20/2012 04:37:03 MDT.

Posting to make this thread easier for me to find and make visible again after the current spam attack.

Roger, you may not be able to update us with any new information, but this IS still in the works, correct?

OK, update time.
Well, there has been a lot of work behind the scenes over this. I would be exchanging emails with Easton at least once a week.

Several prototypes of the summer tent have been made by an Asian sewing company. None of them were correct, but this is understandable as the design and the construction techniques were very new for them, and the staff there have limited English. The last meant that my copious notes on how to sew the tent were of rather less value than I had hoped. Sigh! Mind you, they did seem to have got 90% of the thing the first time around, which i found very encouraging. I think they are now working on another prototype.

It has been a bit of a learning experience for me as well: to find out what can an Asian factory do well and what is difficult for them. Please note here: the word 'difficult' is usually spelt 'expensive'. When I made mine I did not worry about the time taken, but that does not work commercially. Some fine details have therefore been tweaked to make them simpler to sew WITHOUT any compromise on design or quality.

One thing I have had to do is to provide full-size DXF files for every fabric piece. Without that they did not know where to start and the tent might have looked like ... anything. OK, that's just a bit of hack work for me to do. I assume they have very large plotters.

At the same time we have been chasing coated fabrics. Some of Easton's tents are made of fabrics in the older 70 D PU-coated class (around 70 gsm), which is just not good enough for this tent. But at the same time we want a good pressure rating (hydrostatic head) so the fly does not leak in heavy rain, and the groundsheet does not give you a damp backside. A PU coating is very good for this, but it can drop the tear strength to 1/3 of what you get with a 'silnylon'. So, we get samples, then we ask for slight changes, then we ask how much ...

The winter tent looks more complex, being double-skin and 4 poles, but it builds directly on the summer tent. By the time we get the summer tent all sorted out, making the winter tent should be fairly simple, even if the design looks more complex.

Price is still unknown, but fairly obviously it won't be priced like a cheap pop-up. Can't do it! And frankly, I don't see the need to compete with Walmart.

We are, I think, still on track for production and release for Spring 2014, for the summer tent.

Cheers

I propose that you name the new product the Caffin Coffin.

--B.G.--

Awesome, Roger. Thanks. There was a Hilleberg Anjan up for sale on Gear Swap for $400 (a good price!) but I thought to myself, "ah, dang, I wonder how Roger's tent is coming?" Hence my post.

A few questions if you don't mind

If you had your druthers, what fabric would you pick? And what are the issues with not using that? (probably more than you care to get into!)

Probably too soon to tell, but do you have any plans on negotiating a pre-order with Easton for BPL folk? Or are we on our own? :)

> If you had your druthers, what fabric would you pick? And what are the issues with
> not using that?
Precisely!

I can get a very nice Si/Si coated fabric with a HH of 2000 mm and a weight of 42 gsm and a high tear strength, and I can push the HH up to 3000 mm by adding 3 gsm (extra coating). But reinforcing it is a pain: patches have to be sewn on, neatly! I used siloxane transfer tape, but that is very slow and expensive.

On the other hand, I can get a Si/PU coated fabric with 3000 mm HH at 48 gsm which can take thermally bonded reinforcing patches, and the patches do look very nice indeed. But the tear strength is shot to blazes by the PU coating.

I know that sewn patches work, because that's what I have used and that's what Hilleberg use. But further refinements may be possible.

> negotiating a pre-order with Easton for BPL folk?
Hum - dunno. Haven't got that far, but I will bear the idea in mind. It's a good one. Yes, there could be a price-saving there.

Cheers
Roger

Roger, hopefully this hasn't been asked yet...


Are there plans to make the winter tent in such a fashion that the inner clips up into the outer skin like a modular option?

Or is this inherently in disagreement with the fundamentals of your design?

Hi Travis

> the inner clips up into the outer skin like a modular option?
Yes and no.
Sorry!

The fly contains the roof and the poles. The inner tent attaches to the fly at the poles, and includes the groundsheet. So, yes, it could be said to 'clip', although the connection is via lots of hook&loop links, but without the inner you don't get a groundsheet. I would not call this 'modular' myself.

Imho, separating the inner from the outer on the winter tent makes no sense. If you want a single-skin tent, go for the summer one. Hey - buy one of each!

Hth
Cheers

^The first marketing pitch.

Thanks Roger.

>Hey - buy one of each!

I tell ya what. If each is offered at a 50% of sale, I'll get one of each!! :)


Ah, all joking aside, I do plan on getting one... just have to decide which version fits better with my "needs" (wants).


"Hth"-- I'm unfamiliar with this one!

Edited by T.L. on 02/23/2013 23:37:28 MST.

Roger you make me proud to be an Aussie!
"On ya" ( in a Penrith style accent)!
Can't wait for mine!

> "Hth"-- I'm unfamiliar with this one!
Hope This Helps.

Cheers

I'm really hopeful to be able to afford the 4 season version of these tents but I'm wondering if it could handle really bad weather. I'm thinking winter camping in Canada, climbing Denali in June, above tree line on some alpine climbs (Mount Robson as an exemple). I am familiar with the tunnel tents. I own an old Kelty Windfoil 3 and a Stephenson 3RS. I do think these Caffin designed tents should be my next step but I'd like to know what to expect from the 4 season version.
Any insight?
cheers
Pierre

That's what he's making it for!

Look for the "when things go wrong" thread

> if it could handle really bad weather
Well, it has not been tested much over 100 kph wind, but that was all night. We slept.

Yep, read When Things Go Wrong.

Could it take 150 kph wind? End on to the wind with the right pitching technique, I would expect so. You would need to use the sod cloth seriously imho.

My summer tunnel tent took gusting winds side-on and over 100 kph for a short while in Slovenia one year - but we were inside the tent bracing the poles! The wind went aay after maybe 1/4 hour. All was well.

THE secret: very good guying! Make sure no stake ever moves. The CF poles and the silnylon seem quite strong enough.

Cheers