Forum Index » Website & Forum Admin/Support » Censorship again at BPL


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Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 09:45:55 MDT Print View

When a thread gets deleted it sure would be nice if BPL could give a reason why instead of just deleting and not saying anything about anything. This is my point on this whole thread that just goes badly shortly after this post.

Would BPL be so considerate to let us know why they do the things they do.

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:07:10 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 09:53:09 MDT Print View

Maybe the progression into MILF?

Don't google it

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 10:12:26 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:48:59 MDT.

John Frederick Anderson
(fredfoto) - F

Locale: Spain
"Censorship again at BPL" on 06/02/2012 10:30:54 MDT Print View

Maybe because any prospective MLifers might think twice about paying after finding and reading the thread?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 10:36:56 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:49:33 MDT.

John Frederick Anderson
(fredfoto) - F

Locale: Spain
"Censorship again at BPL" on 06/02/2012 10:44:57 MDT Print View

Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking you were refering to another thread on the same topic.
Fred

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: "Censorship again at BPL" on 06/02/2012 11:03:16 MDT Print View

Yeah if you search "is mlife worth it" and you click on the posts that come up you'll get a little message.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 11:06:57 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:50:05 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: "Censorship again at BPL" on 06/02/2012 11:53:00 MDT Print View

I read the thread so how was it only viewable to mlifers. Deleting over the latest post would be an excuse to dump an unpopular thread.

That cottage stagnation thread will probably disappear too..lol.

Edited by jshann on 06/02/2012 12:18:06 MDT.

Chris C
(cvcass) - MLife

Locale: State of Jefferson
gone on 06/02/2012 12:24:11 MDT Print View

I am pretty sure that thread was in "General Backpacking Discussion" or whatever..but yes it appears to be gone.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 12:58:59 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:50:35 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: "Censorship again at BPL" on 06/02/2012 13:05:47 MDT Print View

Here is everything except the last four posts.

http://tinyurl.com/6nfnosn

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 14:20:07 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:55:34 MDT.

John Frederick Anderson
(fredfoto) - F

Locale: Spain
Censorship at BPL on 06/02/2012 14:46:47 MDT Print View

http://tinyurl.com/6nfnosn
That is the thread I was thinking of.
Anyway, having not looked at this site for a few months, can't say after a browse that I've missed much.
There's more information, articles and infotainment on a single Gossamer Gear newsletter than you get here in a year.
I don't think anyone will be hearing from Ryan Jordan in a while either. MIA.
Terrible shame. There's nothing worse that a great idea executed badly. What a waste.
Ciao, Fred.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 17:56:04 MDT Print View

I suspect that management decided this discussion shouldn't be visible to nonmembers. The similar discussions in the Members Only/Life Members Only sections are evidently still intact (so far, anyway).

Considering that the deleted thread has been going on for several years and that everyone has already read it, I'm not too sure that deleting it was a wise policy--the "damage" has been done. It could have been locked instead, which would have meant its fading away quietly in just a few hours. Deleting it has only called more attention to it! I just hope that management read the whole thing first!

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 18:18:51 MDT Print View

So much for "community".

BPL has finally fallen victim to the entropic degeneration of online community. Without its core, it'll lose its cohesion. I've been both a moderator and member if several communities that imploded like that, and unless the creators step in to infuse new life into it, it will inexorably fall apart.

BPL would do well to take a look at the GG newsletter model if they want to remain a business and have control of the information that's presented. If they'd prefer to let "members" be autunomous and act as a community, then they'd be wise not to interfere too often in what members want to talk about. They can't do both, unless they are willing to hear and see the less favorable and more critical side of what members want to say. Considering that these are PAYING members, discussing WHAT THEY PAID FOR, I think it is particularly inappropriate that the thread was deleted, I don't care how "unfavorable" the discussion was. Members are dissatisfied. As a business owner who depends on the payment of the customers, the management's response should have been to address the discontent, not try to silence it. Silencing will only make the dissatisfied members more dissatisfied.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Kens fault? :P on 06/02/2012 18:35:47 MDT Print View

Did mr Thompson question the powers that be one too many times?

Not a good move. The deleting that is-not ken t asking for promises to be met.

Not looking good. Miguel makes some good points....

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 18:39:17 MDT Print View

Miguel! +2!

Adam Kilpatrick
(oysters) - MLife

Locale: South Australia
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 19:24:22 MDT Print View

+3

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/02/2012 19:35:32 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:54:16 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Censorship again at BPL on 06/02/2012 19:58:58 MDT Print View

Probably just a hard drive failure.

BPL wouldnt erase a whole thread.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
rj? caffin? addie? anyone? on 06/02/2012 23:34:43 MDT Print View

Does anyone at BPL want to comment on this?

If not, maybe that says even more than deleting the thread (content and idea-rich as it was).

BPL done?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: rj? caffin? addie? anyone? on 06/03/2012 03:40:30 MDT Print View

Sorry, I have no idea.

Cheers

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/03/2012 07:08:30 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:56:23 MDT.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Re: rj? caffin? addie? anyone? even maia? on 06/03/2012 13:28:59 MDT Print View

Ken, judging from recent history, don't hold your breath; might be hazardous to your health!

On the positive side, I'd really like to see a response to Doug Ide's suggestion:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=64785
IMHO, it could bring in a lot of new members! Certainly a lot more than arbitrarily deleting threads!

Edited by hikinggranny on 06/03/2012 13:36:22 MDT.

Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Time for a reality check on 06/03/2012 20:24:19 MDT Print View

I don't know RJ personally or pretend to speak for him but the way I see the situation is very different from the dominate posters on this thread.

RJ is going to run BPL in accordance with his vision and his values. Don't expect him to change his vision just because aggressive and vocal members on the forums want something different. BPL is his creation and he get to call the shots, which is exactly the way it should be. If you ever thought that buying a life membership would somehow place you on a board of directors you have seriously unreasonable expectations.

From what I have seen over the years on BPL RJ does listen to his customer base, but I don't consider that the curmudgeons to represent the customer base. I suspect and hope that RJ is looking at different and more valid indicators of customer sentiment and desires.

Don't expect RJ to engage in a constant forum dialogue on how to run BPL, it would be a black hole for his time and energy. This is a part time endeavor for him and it is not where he makes his money. He occasionally enters into discussions on the forums but it's minimal and I don't blame him, he would be sucked dry if he tried to respond to and debate every posting directed at BPL or himself.

Ron

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/03/2012 20:35:30 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:58:00 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/11/2012 20:37:02 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:00:00 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Time for a reality check on 06/11/2012 21:00:44 MDT Print View

Ron, except that these forums are not something Ryan created himself. They have always almost completely been kept active by the members themselves. Ryan has almost nothing to do with them. Deleting a thread, especially on boards in which Ryan has been for most part absent for quite some time now, has got nothing to do with his "vision". As has been stated many times before, this whole website depends on member participation and the goodwill of the community. Ryan's vision would not exist without them. Deleting a thread without explanation is inconsiderate and alienating. It undermines what this freely given community is all about. And this IS paid for! We are NOT his employees. We have no obligation to keep silent about what we are thinking and feeling, about our objections. It baffles me why paying customers keep referring to Ryan's "vision", and forgetting that it is also the "community vision" that makes up a huge part of all this, which is not something that belongs to or can be controlled by, Ryan. Maybe that is the point of confusion behind all this... exactly who all this belongs to and who has a say in what. It would be very different if we were employees at BPL. Then I could understand where Ryan might have a say in what we say.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Time for a REAL reality check...Maybe. on 06/11/2012 21:52:01 MDT Print View

Maybe there is no Ryan Jordan. Maybe there is only this guy running BPL now:

1

Maybe the real Ryan Jordan has been driven into hiding by the slavering masses, completely frightened by the expectation that he will one day return and usher in the New Age of Ultralight Backpacking v2. I couldn't blame him, it's a lot of pressure, especially with so many people so bored of cuben already.

Maybe it's only us, maybe only we can usher in the New Age.

Maybe that's what Ryan wanted to show us all along.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Time for a REAL reality check...Maybe. on 06/12/2012 06:46:12 MDT Print View

Blasphemy (who in the world ever thought up that word?!?)!! That can't be BPL related! There are no trees outside the window! But hold on... is that a Patagonia Pneumonia (or whatever you call the orange colored windshirt, back there on the sofa? So this might be authentic after all!

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/12/2012 07:27:56 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:57:01 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: rj? addie? anyone? on 06/12/2012 07:58:37 MDT Print View

Possibly, RJ's mellow has been harshed one too many times for him to come back.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/12/2012 12:42:40 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:59:16 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Time for a reality check on 06/12/2012 23:18:48 MDT Print View

Ron,

One of the issues is that many folks are paying members, which makes things a little different, because they are now customers. Additionally, MLife members were promised many things to include being part of the BPL planning and strategy process, in exchange for their money. That hasn't happened. Not a big deal to me, but for those who ponied up $100+ with this expectation; and did not see it happen... that is a big problem. And the man who took their money has been silent for many, many months. So there are members who are going to be (rightfully) vocal.

I am happy if the forums just continue as they are. I don't want to be involved more than that.

But I do see the valid point some of our vocal members are expressing. So it is not just a forum, it is a business and there is a lot of customer dissatisfaction.

Michael Schwartz
(greenwalk) - MLife

Locale: PA & Ireland
Censorship again at BPL on 06/13/2012 03:19:09 MDT Print View

Those who have expressed their dissatisfaction around BPL's shortcomings in terms of delivery of product/service have valid gripes and concerns. I, too, am somewhat disappointed with some aspects of BPL and becuase I was unable to return an item and still have BPL vouchers because when I returned from an extended backpacking trip last summer I discovered that BPL's retail shop was closed for business. Still, I think that there is much that is of value on this site, though I'd like to see more articles.

I'm not sure if anyone else has brought up the point that RJ may be going through a difficult patch in his life? I think this community, founded by RJ, should keep this possibility in mind in this and other threads when voicing concerns and views regarding Ryan and his involvement in BPL.

P.S. Craig, I got a good chuckle from your post :~)

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/13/2012 06:18:31 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:00:50 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Welcome to reality on 06/13/2012 06:40:45 MDT Print View

I don't want to start getting into Ryan's personal life here, online, for all to see. It is none of our business. And I also feel that the camaraderie of these forums has formed a rather amiable and somewhat close knit community. I think it is a bit harsh to be raking Ryan over the coals about something like this, when we have no idea what is happening. It's just too bad that Ryan hasn't at least explained a few things so that the tension is released and people can feel they can trust BPL. Perhaps it is working both ways, the longer Ryan stays quiet, the more tension builds up, but the longer people voice their strong opinions, the more Ryan will clam up. I don't know. That's the problem with non-communication and silence. They wreck havoc on any kind of relationship.

I think I'd prefer a lighter, more supportive, less confrontational way of addressing all the concerns that have been voiced. Getting harsh will create harsh feelings, and if that starts to dominate the BPL atmosphere then the wonderful community we have all been part of for so many years will be lost. That would be an awful shame.

But Ken is right, though; this is a business, with paying customers, and it is not acceptable that the customers are simply shunned. It would certainly cool the flames if someone at BPL came forward and addressed the issues. I don't think it's ever been this fractured before in all the years that BPL has been around. I can't even say if it is because Ryan is angry about something, feels insulted by us, can't get online, has lost interest, is unable to get unstuck, is planning something big, or maybe even hurt by all the anger directed at him. It would be nice if we could get over this big spanner in the spokes and become a better community for it.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
A little communication... on 06/13/2012 06:47:58 MDT Print View

is all I am asking for. The chance for a meaningful, productive discussion.

Larry M
(Maethros) - MLife

Locale: Mid South
Re: A little communication... on 06/13/2012 12:25:03 MDT Print View

Very fair to ask for a little acknowledgement. Just a few words. It need not be a dissertation.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: Midwest
oh man on 06/13/2012 16:17:27 MDT Print View

This is disappointing to read. Generally if I like a site and the people on it, I'm more than happy to chip in (regardless of whether the site is a business or a hobby for the proprietor). I'm frustrated over not being able to do so here. It seems like a really bad idea to buy passage on a ship where the captain won't tell you where it's going, or indeed even acknowledge the passengers who already have tickets. I've been following all these future of BPL threads and none of them show any inkling of an answer to the many relevant questions raised, nor either reaction or acknowledgement of the many ideas put forth. I guess I'll continue not to pay.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: A little communication... on 06/13/2012 16:23:10 MDT Print View

Wow. This is like a black hole. Hello? Anyone there?

I thought Alan Dixon was also the founder of this site. We don't hear from him either.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
.... on 06/13/2012 16:52:03 MDT Print View

Edited. Thought it was funny but didn't help matters.

Edited by Kat_P on 06/14/2012 18:03:39 MDT.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - M
Re: .... on 06/13/2012 17:12:41 MDT Print View

Really neat troll dolls, Kat.

a b
(Ice-axe)
Back Packing Light on 06/13/2012 18:16:49 MDT Print View

I am thankful for the folks here on BPL.
To "meet" and discuss hiking related and even non-hiking related stuff here on BPL with such a diverse and varied group of people is the true gold of the internet.
I am not sure what happened to Ryan Jordan, but I can at least be thankful for all you folks.
At the worst, you Life members have paid about 5 years worth of subscription money up front.
Myself, I have paid year by year.
Either way I don't feel ripped off.
The real payoff for me is having this site as a place to connect, learn, and share ideas.
Sure there are free places to do this on the internet... but are they equivalent to BPL.
You.. the people here, make BPL what it is.
I hope RJ does return to the forums someday and give you the direction or whatever was promised to you life members.
Until then I am still pretty happy with my 20 dollar investment in this site and by extension, all of you.
Cheers

PS. Katharina, those are pictures of your daughter huh? What a cutie! You are an awesome photographer by the way!

Edited by Ice-axe on 06/13/2012 18:19:47 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Back Packing Light on 06/13/2012 18:35:16 MDT Print View

@Matt Black.....troll?

@Matt Edwards....no, not my daughter. My sentiments are similar to those you expressed in your post.

todd harper
(funnymoney) - MLife

Locale: Sunshine State
Re: A little communication... on 06/13/2012 18:43:12 MDT Print View

I hope Ryan's ok. Would like communication and follow-thru to be better.

That said, Roger Caffin is 'da bomb! I appreciate all the staff, members, and others who have contributed.

I love BPL and the community here. Thanks to all.

Edited by funnymoney on 06/13/2012 20:05:14 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: A little communication... on 06/13/2012 19:30:43 MDT Print View

"I love BPL and the community here. Thanks to all."

+1

The website is running just fine on a day to day basis, with lots of interesting articles and threads happening. Why not lay off Ryan and let him deal with whatever he has to deal with in peace? Badgering him will accomplish nothing, as should be abundantly clear by now, and will probably make him even more reluctant to engage when he does get things sorted out. For those who insist on pursuing this fruitless course of action, I have a suggestion for an alternative approach: Ask for your money back. I'll bet you'd get a check in the mail in a week at most.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Censorship again at BPL on 06/13/2012 19:40:37 MDT Print View

Fork

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/13/2012 19:42:03 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 07/18/2012 22:53:05 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Thread drift.. on 06/13/2012 19:55:43 MDT Print View

"I emailed the editor of this webzine/forum and asked why. I received no response."

No response is often the most eloquent response of all.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: A little communication... on 06/13/2012 19:59:12 MDT Print View

> I thought Alan Dixon was also the founder of this site
Yes, he helped found it, but had other things to do so he passed his 'share' of it to Ryan. He still contributes occasionally.

Cheers

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/13/2012 20:08:12 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:02:35 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Thread drift.. on 06/13/2012 20:12:11 MDT Print View

"Thanks for that incredible bit of insight."

Always ready to go the extra mile for a fellow BPLer in distress. :)

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Sad on 06/13/2012 20:14:36 MDT Print View

The saddest part if this is what it has done to some of the relationships among us.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/13/2012 20:21:59 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:08:38 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Sad on 06/13/2012 20:34:09 MDT Print View

I don't think so Ken.
Here is what I compare this situation to. A number of times ( a couple of notable ones) I have pointed out some pretty outrageous sexist remarks/ posts. At times I have stood there pretty alone, maybe a couple of private messages letting me know I wasn't alone at least in spirit. Sometimes the " offenders" have even been patted on the back. I felt a little let down and then came to the conclusion that my battles don't have to be my friends battles too. That's what I think has happened here too.
I gave as much support to this cause as I honestly have in me and I hope that isn't seen as a let down.

Edited by Kat_P on 06/13/2012 20:41:09 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/13/2012 21:13:16 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:04:42 MDT.

a b
(Ice-axe)
What do you want? on 06/13/2012 23:17:21 MDT Print View

Ken, I consider you a friend here on BPL and in person via the GGG.
Yet I am still confused about exactly what this is all about.
Could you please state specifically what you want from Ryan Jordan and BPL.
Not taking you to task bro, just think it is rather mucky at this point.
Even after re-reading this thread I cannot tell what you, and other life members, were promised.
What did you expect for 100 dollars and what has the "return" been?
Basically;
Whats the Beef Bro?

Please don't take this as a personal attack. (It isn't and I am going out on a limb here)
I honestly don't understand what the problem is, and i suspect neither do a lot of other members.
Fill us in.
If you could get the "perfect" responses to your questions from RJ, what would they be?

Edited by Ice-axe on 06/13/2012 23:26:08 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: What do you want? on 06/14/2012 02:07:03 MDT Print View

Matthew,

This particular thread is about an entire, very involved thread having been deleted with no explanation. I think that very much warrants an explanation. It's true that sometimes the things people say here can be idiotic, unkind, unruly, or just plain worthless, but most of what people are contributing, and the effort to contribute, should be considered to have intrinsic value. Otherwise what is the purpose of this entire forum? Or even BPL? Some people put a lot of time, energy, and careful thought into that deleted thread. It is rude and dismissive to just delete it without acknowledging the good points in the thread and giving an explanation.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/14/2012 06:21:56 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 07/18/2012 22:54:04 MDT.

John Frederick Anderson
(fredfoto) - F

Locale: Spain
Thanks Ken on 06/14/2012 11:50:47 MDT Print View

As an interested outsider and ex-member on the fence about joining because of the "benefits" of MLife, I appreciate Ken's efforts to clarify the thread deletion in this thread.
I find the absence of any BPL official input or reply particularly discouraging.
A functioning community succeeds by clear leadership and vision. None seen on this thread, so far, which is bordering on the bizarre.
Perhaps it is symptomatic of the declining quality of reality.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 17:26:16 MDT Print View

When I first started visiting BPL regularly (due to Ken constantly nagging me to visit it) I found it to be a pleasant place to visit.

There are not a lot of alternatives out there so I was glad to become a member at BPL. I did not want to use whiteblaze because they are so East Coast focused (and understandably so). I did not want to use hammockforums (well, actually I could not, they refuse to remove content from their website, even when issues legal Cease and Desist notifications, so rather than just doing the legal thing, they blocked my account - note: did not terminate/close/remove, just locked me out so their precious threads would not be 'messed up' - WTF? ). So that left me pretty much only mailing lists, for which I am eternally grateful such still exist (pct-l being one of the best hiking resources that exist).

So when I finally did decide to join BPL I took a good look at their differences between "member" and "life" and when I saw the list of features only two of them stood out for the MLIFE, those being "Access to lifetime Members-only forum" and "Backpacking Light's annual strategic planning meeting in Montana". I thought it could be nice to have access to an advanced level forum where those with decades of hiking experience hung out in (the MLIFE forum) and I thought that the ability to head up to Montana to hang out with other guys that really into hiking would be a great yearly event. So one day I asked Ken and _P about those two features and they both sort of laughed at the second one, saying that such meetings had never happened (again WTF? way to fail on that promised feature BPL) and that the MLIFE forum was nothing all that special, and worse, not very active.

So I had a decision, think about whether I would be here 5+ years later and pay for MLIFE or just pay year-to-year.

In the end the decision came down to the fact that I did not think BPL would be offering the same features 6 years later, so why take the risk.

Having been a here few years now I will likely eventually loose money, but morally, I think loosing money (and thereby BPL taking excessive money from me for failure of not provided features promised to its members) is the right thing to do. Yes, some day I will probably end up spending more, but for me, it just feels like the right thing to do. Additionally, should I eventually come to the full realization that BPL has no intentions of fulfilling its promises, I can always go to another such website should one come along, and than not feel like I was taken advantage of for a few years worth of subscription funds.


I make my living by creating and owning subscription based websites and software - and business is good enough that I can hike a 1000+ miles each year and not worry about finances. I fully understand what is involved in running a website like BPL (I own websites with tens of thousands of members) and I am a co-founder of the phpBB software, a forums software that has hundreds of millions of users within its forums. I have said it before and will continue to say it, the actual software/server/maintenance expenses of running a website the size of BPL is not a lot. If that alone is costing them over $300 per month than they are doing something horribly wrong. On the other hand IF the guys behind BPL are trying to fund their own lively hood (i.e.: their paychecks) from BPL than all of this becomes a whole other matter and their failure to provide SAID SERVICES is and should be the issue that Ken is making it out to be.

{removed about five paragraphs from right here that was taking this thread off-topic, which did not make Ken very happy - giggle}

BPL Terms of Service:

Backpacking Light reserves the right to remove for any reason posted materials from a chat/message board, and the right to deny in its sole discretion any user access to a chat/message board, without notice.



(edited post because it was taking this entire topic off-topic... sorry ken)

Edited by JohnAbela on 06/16/2012 21:27:30 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Thanks Ken on 06/14/2012 17:32:18 MDT Print View

> Perhaps it is symptomatic of the declining quality of reality.
Ouch!
I wonder what the petunia would think?

Cheers

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/14/2012 17:47:22 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:10:13 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
balls of fire. on 06/14/2012 17:55:56 MDT Print View

John, um... yikes. So BPL deletes the thread AND gives Jetboil your personal email so they can harass and threaten you into coerced and BPL-published retraction? Good business approach.

And still more silence. Which would be much understandable if many of the folks being ignored weren't actual CUSTOMERS of a BUSINESS who are PAYING THE BILLS.

p.s. Ken, you might wanna archive this thread, since it might be going bye-bye soon.

Edited by DaveT on 06/14/2012 17:56:42 MDT.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Where the air is thin
Privacy policy on 06/14/2012 20:13:32 MDT Print View

Does BPL have a privacy policy or similar? It seems like a huge breach of trust if they did indeed pass out a member's confidential data (email address) to the corporate thugs at Jetboil. I'm disgusted on both counts.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Privacy policy on 06/14/2012 20:21:35 MDT Print View

"Does BPL have a privacy policy or similar?"

Privacy Policy

Your personal information is never - under any circumstances - released to third parties. Period. Simple enough?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/policies.html#privacy

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 20:32:39 MDT Print View

Thank you Doug, that was just what we needed to know.

I'm shocked at the level of detail and effort John put into fabricating his lie.

Joking of course, I think it is very clear which party lacks honor in this situation.

Edited by redmonk on 06/14/2012 21:14:59 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
policy with a little p. on 06/14/2012 20:46:35 MDT Print View

Your personal information is almost never - under nearly any circumstances* - released to third parties. Period.












* Unless you make a fact-based negative post about a gear item which BPL rates "Highly Recommended" and of which Dr. Ryan Jordan is a "big fan" in which case your personal information will be turned over to the gear manufacturer for subsequent threat and
intimidation. Also, please consider the benefits of joining at the MLife level!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 20:49:02 MDT Print View

"I'm shocked at the level of detail and effort John put into fabricating his lie."

as am I, dam lucky guess on his part naming the V.P. of Sales and Marketing

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/14/2012 20:50:34 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:11:53 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 21:11:00 MDT Print View

Who wants to chip in to send Ken to the BSa Course from BPL.

Slight chance Ryan might be there.

Could be great trip report !

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 21:12:47 MDT Print View

I'm shocked at the level of detail and effort John put into fabricating his lie.

Uh oh. Here comes another flame war. Everyone brace yourselves!

I have absolutely no idea what happened with the JetBoil thread or to John, but I'm uncertain why you accuse him of lying, Cameron. It seemed pretty straightforward to me.

Whatever happened in the past, the one thing I want to say here is, to the BPL leaders, please, if you care about BPL and the community, address this growing problem of distrust. It is the most important denomination in the existence of the community. Once distrust sets in people will start leaving. If that happens, BPL will fall apart. If you have never experienced the disintegration of an online community, you will be shocked by how fast it can happen. It doesn't matter whether or not anyone was right or wrong, justified to do or say anything or not, the littlest contention can bring down the whole house. So I urge you, please address this and nurture the community cohesion. Be honest with everyone and let us know what is going on. I think the community is strong and diverse and understanding enough to hear whatever might be said, and I also think a lot of us would make a lot of effort to help keep the community going. But that means you have to trust us, too. The way it is right now, confidence is failing and the sense that all this might crumble is growing. Let's not let this wonderful community die.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 21:17:35 MDT Print View

Miguel. Cameron=sarcasm I laughed.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 21:17:43 MDT Print View

Im not accusing him of lying, I'm accusing Ryan Jordan of lacking leadership skills, communication abilities, honor, and integrity.

The contracts BPL makes with its members are worth less than I spent displaying them on this monitor.

It just sounds nicer the other way.

Sorry for any confusion, and I hope that clears it up.

Edited by redmonk on 06/14/2012 21:22:54 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/14/2012 21:22:47 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:01:26 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 21:23:25 MDT Print View

Miguel. Cameron=sarcasm I laughed.

Sorry for any confusion, and I hope that clears it up.

Oops! Sorry! It's a cultural thing... Sarcasm doesn't go across very well in my part of the world, so I didn't think to deploy the sarcasm array.

Carry on! (@_@) Nothing to see here!

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Where the air is thin
Antithesis on 06/14/2012 21:34:52 MDT Print View

Maybe Ryan went to Vegas, and Hangover style, doesn't realize that he gave away the admin password to his web domain. Could it be he's locked out from his own house? Wouldn't that suck for him?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/14/2012 21:38:06 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:13:28 MDT.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Where the air is thin
High stakes poker on 06/14/2012 21:54:38 MDT Print View

Bwahahaha. Maybe Ryan's bluffing skills failed him after a winter under the Trailstar.

Seth Brewer
(Whistler) - MLife

Locale: www.peaksandvalleys.weebly.com
deleted on 06/14/2012 21:59:17 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by Whistler on 06/29/2012 17:33:55 MDT.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 22:13:25 MDT Print View

This all makes for sad reading. I still enjoy the forums and get something out of them. To a great extent they are what we make of them (censorship aside). A few ideas that Ryan has talked about over the past year here, and in his newsletters, makes me feel that, for all his strengths, he is not the best person to be heading up a customer focused business.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 22:17:19 MDT Print View

Here's my crappy two cents......

I am confused.....


kids, tis hiking season !

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 22:28:04 MDT Print View

Hey Folks,


{removed one paragraph from right here that was taking this thread off-topic, which did not make Ken very happy - giggle}

But again, let us focus on the real issues here, that Ken has been getting at for well over a week.

* There have been SERVICES which BPL has indicated to their paying customers that they would receive and for which BPL has failed to provide.

* BPL has a habitual habit of removing entire threads from the website without explanations. (which as I previously quoted from their ToS is their legal right)

* When a thread does come to the point where they decide to remove the entire thing, rather than just removing a few comments from the entire thread they instead to take the unfortunate course of action and remove the entire thread.

* Rather than addressing the concerns of its paying members, those who operate BPL have chosen to stay completely silent. (this too it is their right, but along the way it harms the community which they own)


When we start to see post after post that turns into threads that are a half dozen to a dozen pages long (and each page is 20 comments) this quickly turns into hundreds of comments by members, some of them paying members and some of them free account holders, it should be a sign to the powers-that-be that there are issues that need to be delt with.

I love BPL. I visit it a dozen or more times a day when I am not out on the trail hiking. I have used it to learn a few tips over the last few years. I have used it to buy and sell a lot of gear. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are just not a lot of options out there for those of us in the community and BPL is still #1 and until it is not, or I am removed from membership, I will probably keep visiting BPL. I am not here to be critical of the owners of BPL. I just want to know that the SERVICES which have been stated are actually being provided. I also want to see an internal audit of how BPL administration handles the removal of content and how notifications to its membership is presented.

Think that is pretty much all I have to say about all of this. I will let Ken and the rest of you continue to try to apply as much pressure on BPL ownership as you can to seek restitution on these maters.

John B. Abela
HikeLighter.Com


(edited post to remove off-topic issues - sorry ken)

Edited by JohnAbela on 06/16/2012 21:29:04 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 22:39:55 MDT Print View

;

edited out of frustration

Edited by kennyhel77 on 06/15/2012 06:50:14 MDT.

Warren Greer
(WarrenGreer) - F

Locale: SoCal
Sad reading for sure on 06/14/2012 22:49:57 MDT Print View

Seth,

I agree. Be civil, reasonable, and helpful. And that is what BPL used to be. Now it seems to be falling down and no one is at the helm to right the ship. Very disturbing. So, right the ship, make good on membership promises, and let us get back to the normally scheduled programming. (and if current leadership are not able to do this, hire an entity that can provide the service)

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Censorship again at BPL on 06/14/2012 23:04:17 MDT Print View

For a better understanding of Ryan, his history, and his philosophies, go to http://ryanjordan.com/about-ryan-jordan

Scroll down to "Read Ryan's Timeline"

Read it and draw more informed conclusions - good, bad, or indifferent - about the man.



As a graduate of the University of Montana in Missoula, I can only really fault him for having chosen Montana State University. Still, he could have done worse out of state.

Richard Scruggs
(JRScruggs) - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Life at BPL on 06/15/2012 02:11:49 MDT Print View

@ Ken T re: "Miguel I am sure that when this is all over that BPL will be here, and better. I still have hope and energy to invest here."

+1

A theory: Maybe this tempest has been allowed to ferment and fester as a lab experiment for analyzing human coping responses under circumstances of stress and conflict.

If so, it's good to hear that you're keeping the faith, even as you peer up into the bottom of the microscope to try and find the mad scientist at work.

Other than the disturbing mystery of evaporating threads, and any possible connection that might exist between BPL and Jetboil's evident determination to drive away future customers, the behind-the-scenes machinations at BPL are not a big issue for me since I find real value here -- frequently in forums, but mostly in the repository of articles and reviews.

Plus, I'm nearing the break-even point for my life membership. Thus, continuation of those benefits, as well as anything to come, will soon be pure gravy.

Sure hope it continues, and sincerely appreciate Ryan's efforts in bringing the whole BPL enterprise this far.

Edited by JRScruggs on 06/15/2012 02:13:37 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
re finding email addresses on 06/15/2012 04:04:25 MDT Print View

> There are really only three possibilities of how JB could have gotten it, two of them
> in defense of BPL.
First:
One wonders how many guesses Jetboil could have made at what might be a reasonable email address for John. Given all the web sites John is involved with, sending the same email to a few guesses would not be difficult.

Second:
You can probe systems for email addresses. See for example the web sites
http://tools.email-checker.com/
http://verify-email.org/
http://www.ipaddresslocation.org/email_lookup/check-email.php

There are in fact tens or hundreds of these web sites which can do this for you. Five minutes checking ideas would get you a hit.

Somehow, I doubt BPL passed John's email address on to Jetboil.

Cheers

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/15/2012 06:17:10 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 08:03:21 MDT.

David Goodyear
(dmgoody) - MLife

Locale: mid-west
. on 06/20/2012 07:05:15 MDT Print View

.

Edited by dmgoody on 07/27/2012 12:05:03 MDT.

Jack Elliott
(JackElliott) - F

Locale: Bend, Oregon, USA
MYOWS? on 06/20/2012 07:29:29 MDT Print View

"It's just a web-site people. use it or don't."

Or, as film director Spike Lee once said, "If you don't like my movies, make your own."

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
deleted on 06/20/2012 11:56:46 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by kthompson on 06/23/2012 07:58:32 MDT.

Ole Saether
(osaether) - MLife

Locale: Norway
Can someone give a short version of this? on 06/29/2012 01:38:42 MDT Print View

As a new MLIFE member I am struggling to understand what this is all about. Especially since Ken have deleted most of his posts in this thread.

Can somebody give me a summary? To prevent deletion of this thread as well you can send it directly to me on e-mail: osaether@gmail.com

Ole

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Can someone give a short version of this? on 06/29/2012 01:52:12 MDT Print View

Take Roger Caffin as an example of a moderator. If he sees some posting that violates the rules, he chops out the offending text and drops in some note about it being deleted or edited by Roger and why. That seems reasonable to most of us.

Other staff members have become unhappy with an entire thread, so they have deleted the entire thread without any notice of who, why, or wherefore. Most of us know who, and we can guess why, but it seems so unprofessional that it upsets some members.

It doesn't upset me much. I don't have a dog in this fight.

--B.G.--

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
. on 06/30/2012 23:08:13 MDT Print View

.

Edited by kthompson on 06/30/2012 23:30:17 MDT.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: . on 07/02/2012 18:32:07 MDT Print View

^^^


Well said Ken :-P

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: . on 07/02/2012 21:47:36 MDT Print View

Oh good. Glad to see the status quo has been kept.

I'm off to the Porkies tomorrow.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: . on 07/02/2012 21:49:04 MDT Print View

Ken knows where I live and can come by and smack me around anytime - giggle - so I enjoy messing with him ;)

Enjoy your hike!!

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: . on 07/02/2012 22:08:36 MDT Print View

John, no, I wasn't targeting you or Ken. Just commenting on the ongoing problems that have yet to see any resolution.

I'm very much looking forward to hiking again!