I'm not sure I'm buying the argument that canister stoves are inherently so much safer than alky stoves. (I concede that they are bit more idiot-proof, and thus deserve some consideration on that point alone, but that's it.) But most of the canister stoves in use nowadays are not remote rigs. The burner sits on top of the canister and the pot sits on top of the burner. They are quite top-heavy and need just as much attention paid to them to prevent disasters such as this one as alky stoves do. I've seen a lot of clueless campers with legless canister stoves perched on non-level rocks with the burners blazing. And I know that I personally have tipped a canister stove over several times in my youth, but never had a mishap with my low/flat alky stove.

There are extreme examples- look at how tall and tippy the JetBoils are.

No, I'm not poo-pooing how easy it is to accidentally kick your lightweight alky stove and send burning fluids scattering into the underbrush. And I agree that setups like the Fancy Feast stove are inherently less stable and demand a bit more care in their use. But an alky stove that uses a pot support or a cone is probably as safe (in the causing-forest-fires sense) as a tall, tippy stove like a JetBoil. You can accidentally kick either one of them over, and the alky stove has the disadvantage of being filled with a liquid accelerant but the canister stove is more tippy and thus more likely to have an incident in the first place.

If you say "Well I take precautions with my canister stove, such as using support legs and being careful to place it level and not tip it over, and I pay attention to it", well then I would answer "I take precautions with my alky stove, like using pot supports and placing it in a stable spot where I won't kick it into the underbrush, and I pay attention to it."

I think that's probably the biggest error the gentleman in question made- he turned away from the stove for too long and when he turned back there was already a fire established to the point that he couldn't extinguish it. I would speculate that he would have had the same problem if he'd tipped a canister stove. From the article it does not sound like he kicked the stove and scattered burning alcohol all over or anything. Perhaps he didn't clear an adequate burn ring, as well.

A remote canister system arguably IS the safest bet, though, if we are splitting hairs- low, not tippy, and doesn't scatter accelerants when kicked over. Well, the safest after not using a stove at all, that is.

Edited by acrosome on 05/21/2012 09:10:49 MDT.

Common sense is important here and doesn't always get followed on the trail. If there is no fuel to burn, the stove won't start a fire. Clear the area around your stove of any fuels, especially light flashy fuels like pine needles, etc. I see people cooking with just a 2' diameter area around their stoves where they pushed back piles of pine needles. This isn't good enough and is a fire waiting to happen. Consider where your fuel would go should it spill. Find or clear an open space with 8-10 feet of clearance. When you are ready to move on, replace what you cleared as best you can. I do this whether I'm using my alcohol stove or my Whisperlite.

...and you can do a simple experiment to prove it out. Set up a safe burn area in your backyard, and for "real world" likeness, be sure to provide some dry forest fuel to see the impact. Take your typical canister stove (burner mounted on top of canister). Turn it up to blast mode, and topple it over. Leave it for a few seconds, and then stand it back up. See how long it takes to stomp out the resulting fire - depending on the dryness and amount of fuel, it'll take probably 30 to 60 seconds.

Now, do the same thing with an alchy stove. You'll note some key differences with the alchy stove: first, the fuel pours out and now you're chasing a liquid fire. Second, when you stomp it out, now you've got alchy on your shoes and your shoes are on fire. Third, if you try to pour water on it, you've now spread the fire further (never pour water on a liquid fuel fire). The only way to suffocate and extinguish an alchy fire is to smother with non-flammable material (e.g. dirt) or to let it burn out. Convincing yourself an accidental tipover won't happen with an alchy stove is not a very prudent fire safety habit.

My first test trip with an alchy stove, it was cold, my fingers were shaky, and I accidentally tipped over my alchy stove. Thankfully I was cooking in an established fire ring, but I knew that I wouldn't always have that luxury. The stove went on gear swap shortly after returning.

"... he later reported to the Larimer County Sheriff’s Office that he started the fire."

Regardless of what transpired, I respect that he help himself responsible. Obviously there were some preparation mistakes made and I hope the area recovers quickly.

Convincing yourself an accidental tipover won't happen with a canister stove is not a very prudent fire safety habit, either... :)

OK, I'll try to avoid my usual verbosity and cut this down a bit:

Alky stoves do have their safety concerns- they do use a puddle of flaming liquid, and I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that trying to present canister stoves as INHERENTLY IMMENSELY MORE SAFE is disingenuous, because canister stoves are still a significant fire hazard, too. (Not to mention this is the first forest fire I've ever heard of being started by an alcohol stove- but maybe that's sampling bias. If you want to ban something ban smoking.)

If a canister stove tips over into a pile of desiccated pine needles then, yes, I would propose that you'll have a serious situation on your hands in about ten seconds. Now, if you really kicked that alky stove and sent flaming alcohol flying over a hundred square yards of dried tinder then, yes, I would agree that might pose a bit more of a problem than if you'd tried to send the canister stove through the goalposts.

If you have an adequate ring there isn't a realistic problem with either stove. Clever comments about flaming shoes notwithstanding, you can stomp out an alcohol fire- we're talking about all of an ounce of alcohol spread on the dirt, after all. I've done it. Or you can smother it with a few handfuls of sand just as easily as burning detritus. And if you've spilled it into pine duff instead of on dirt, well, then your ring was inadequate, wasn't it? A pile of burning pine needles is not hard to extinguish just because it was lit with alcohol- it would be just as difficult if it were lit with a match.

I still suspect that the guy in the article didn't notice the fire until it was too well established to smother- which could have happened with a tipped canister stove, too. It certainly does NOT sound like he kicked flaming alcohol all over the place then ignored the situation for a while, which is really the situation that you are claiming is so unsafe about alcohol stoves. Something else happened here- maybe a spill that he didn't notice, and didn't notice it was on fire because of the well-known invisibility of alcohol flame in daylight. THAT is a stronger criticism of alcohol stoves, which is again mitigated with a good fire ring.

And as I said I think canister stoves deserve consideration for being more idiot-proof. No, I would not recommend an alky stove to a novice camper. Novice campers just try to set their stove on a rock (often not level) to avoid scraping a fire ring.

Edited by acrosome on 05/21/2012 11:01:30 MDT.

"Now, if you really kicked that alky stove and sent flaming alcohol flying over a hundred square yards of dried tinder then, yes, I would agree that might pose a bit more of a problem than if you'd tried to send the canister stove through the goalposts."
I'm not proposing that one needs to give it a solid boot. Just tap it over with your foot. The alcohol does go running in a flaming stream.

It's far from a clever comment about the shoes. Perhaps you did this in daylight so didn't realize it (clear-ish flames from alcohol), but stomping with your feet doesn't put out an alcky fire. How do I know? When I was in high school (and substantially stupider than now), we used to light our shoes on fire with rubbing alcohol and run around at night. Great fun in a parking lot. Recipe for disaster in the backcountry.

"...we're talking about all of an ounce of alcohol spread on the dirt..."
Again a dangerous assumption - what about the 16oz of water that was sitting above that stove? If that water spills into the alcohol fire, you now have a substantially larger fire transportation system. So what's a big enough fire ring for 16oz of fire? 8 feet? 10 feet? What if you only have 4 feet of perfectly flat area? Do you need to clear an extra 10 feet in the potential runoff direction? Do you know for certain what direction the runoff will happen?

I simply can't trust an alchy stove. Mistakes happen to everyone. If I tip over my canister stove, I do have 10K BTU's to contend with, but at least it's staying in one place and has a dial to turn it off. With alchy you have to trust that your ring was big enough, and you considered all the contours of the ground to make sure you're not going to send a stream in some direction.

@Mary
"Not only alcohol cookers!!!

When campfire bans are in place, you need to check carefully by jurisdiction. Many jurisdictions include wood-burning stoves in the ban. Some jurisdictions prohibit any stove that doesn't have a shutoff valve, which would include alcohol and esbit."

You're correct. This is the wording:
PROHIBITIONS:
1. Building, maintaining, attending or using a fire or campfire, charcoal, coal, or wood stove, except within a developed
recreation site in Restricted Area #1. 36 C.F.R. § 261.52(a). The use of petroleum-fueled stoves, lanterns or heating
devices, provided that these devices meet the fire underwriter’s specifications for safety, is allowed.

I think Esbit stoves are the safest of all. No liquids to spill. You'd have to literally kick it into flammable material to start a fire with it. It's no where as hot as Isobutane. Not sure how you could get safer than that.

@Harald
"So this type of discussion worries me a bit, especially the comments that full contained stoves that are virtually impossible to tip over are just as risky as an alcohol stove which weighs a few grams and has no triangulation on the legs at all to stabilize it."

Different types of stoves, different issues. With white gas stoves it's the leaks from bad seals, flare ups, fuel spray, etc. These can all be minimized, of course, but we all know how common user error is with any technology. But when a problem occurs with a white gas stove and it's on fire with a full fuel bottle attached AND the person panics. That's a recipe for disaster.

Of course, it sounds like user error is what cause the alky stove to start the Hewlett fire. When you are cooking with .5 or 1 oz of alcohol, it doesn't take much clear ground to contain that much liquid from flammable material. In fact, if somebody is using any stove in an area that could catch fire if a problem occurred, I'd say the shouldn't be out backpacking at all. They don't have the requisite skill set to safely do so.

>>> ...what about the 16oz of water that was sitting above that stove? If that water spills into the alcohol fire, you now have a substantially larger fire transportation system....

Ah, now I think I get where you're coming from, and I suspect that you are making an error in concept. (Or, heck, maybe I'M making an error in concept...) You're thinking that alcohol is immiscible, like a burning gasoline slick. But water and alcohol mix- water is not a "fire transportation system" for alcohol. 16oz of water would dilute the 1oz alcohol to the point that it wouldn't burn; ethanol has to be 170 proof before it will burn. All the safety missives you've heard about not dousing a liquid fire with water were referring to grease or petrochemicals or other such non-water-soluble stuff that floats. Those are after all the most common source of liquid fires in modern experience.

In most environments I'm even sure it isn't a good idea to toss a bucket of water on an alcohol fire for fear of splashing burning droplets. If you turned a fire hose on a swimming pool full of burning alcohol, yes- I suspect that burning alcohol droplets would fly everywhere. But that's not what we're talking about- we're talking about 25mL of alcohol.

Any of the chemical engineers whom I know lurk here- please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure some alcohol droplets still would splash, but if mixed with a large amount of water the alcohol wouldn't burn, right? Maybe I'll try some experimentation tonight. Hmm... I'd need to try various alcohols... stop and get some HEET... I already have a decent Everclear stock... hmm...

If you "tap it with your boot" then the spill is small, and the resultant fire easy to control by stomping or, preferably, smothering with a handful of dirt. Where the alky stove becomes a real hazard is only the spill I described- a firm blow sending droplets over a wide area. Well, that and the inherent hazards of invisible flames, which I have admitted is a much more valid criticism. That's why I would recommend against them for anyone who is not familiar with alky stoves.

Also, I would propose that a shoe that has been doused with alcohol and set alight is different than one that has stomped on some burning dirt (i.e. using just the sole). Again, I've done this. The stopming out spilled alcohol that is, not the juvenile antics with burning shoes. I'm sure I've done things that were equally harebrained, but not that in particular. :) I have definitely spilled alcohol then set it alight before I really got my stove-fueling technique down, and always easily doused it. Also, while I have certainly bumped my alky stoves I have never actually tipped one over- they kind of have a low center of gravity.

And, Brother, I definitely put those fires out. Gimme a little credit, here... :)

To repeat- I'm not saying that alky stoves don't have their safety issues. I'm just saying that if they are any more dangerous than canister stoves that it is a trivial difference for anyone who takes the most rudimentary and widely-known common-sense precautions, so decrying alky stoves as "too dangerous" is disingenuous. If you personally have had a bad experience and thus tend to avoid them- fine- more power to you. I can hardly be critical- I don't do bariatric surgery because of one empiric bad outcome that I had in the past, even though I can look at the data and explain why bariatrics is nonetheless a Good Thing. I've just been emotionally scarred and can't do it. So I understand. For similar reasons I never want to touch a pressurized white-gas stove again. Those things terrify me- a buddy of mine once lost his eyebrows to one. Hmm, for that matter the idea of carrying around a pressurized canister of isobutane kind of gives me the willies, too, as irrational as that is. I just prefer my nice, simple puddle of flammable liquid- I don't have to trust whoever made the canister and the burner.

But I'm more concerned about what you do with your cigarette butts (if you smoke). They seem to be responsible for an inordinate fraction of accidental wildfires.

Edited by acrosome on 05/21/2012 14:14:25 MDT.

Any stove can and will set vegetation alight. Always use it on bare ground; clear a good-sized circle! Always watch your stove closely. And yes, an alcohol stove does heat the ground underneath. If said ground contains organic matter, it will smolder and may eventually catch fire. A piece of foil under the stove is not enough to block the heat; some insulation is needed. In times of high fire danger, it behooves all of us to be paranoid.

While I agree that a properly used alcohol stove is no more dangerous than my canister stove, it appears that quite a few folks who write regulations are concerned about shutoff valves. Considering the loss of life and property from wildfires, I can't blame them.

In many years of use (since the late 1980's), I've never had a canister stove tip over, although my pot has fallen/been knocked off the thing a few times. Of course this only happens just as the water starts boiling! :-)

After trying both systems, I personally prefer the convenience of the canister stove. For trips of a week or more, the weight for the two systems is about the same. Of course, Your Mileage May and probably will Vary.

"To ignore the fact that alcohol may be a bit more hazardous and have a greater possibility of being spilled or knocked over and spread uncontrolled fire is like sticking your head in the sand."

100% agree. I use an alcohol stove, but I am totally aware that it comes with much more fire danger. I switched from an MSR Whisperlite to this. How is it more dangerous? WIND. Simple as that. Nothing could knock over a Whisperlite. It's heavy, clunky, and connected to an even heavier and clunkier fuel bottle. On the other hand, even with a windscreen, a simple 20 mph gust of wind could easily send an alcohol stove flying, even with a pot of water on it. Point being, alcohol stoves are inherently more dangerous, in my opinion, and just use extreme caution when using them. This could have happened to anybody.

So for last 20 years millions of people have used alcohol stoves some, like thru hikers used them daily for up to 6 months. Now one guy has an accident and people are sounding the alarm?
Some people on here missed their true vocation in local news.

I see what you're saying but I didn't read this as sounding the alarm - nobody's telling us to stop using our alcohol stoves. Rather it's a reminder that we need to be careful and not ignore a lit stove. What's important to take home from this incident is that a moment of inattention can lead to massive destruction of habitat for flora and fauna; never a bad thing to be reminded of that, even if you already know it.

One of the reasons I like my Zelph SS Starlyte Stove is because it is spill proof. It can be tipped over but from experience I can verify that no alcohol has ever spilled out due to the fiberglass insulation. I think I have only tipped the stove over once; usually it is my pot of boiling water that spills out. I noticed tonight that Zelph no longer makes this stove, which I bought from the BPL store a few years ago.

If I were to consider any other alcohol stove, it would have to have fiberglass insulation to guarantee against spilling any alcohol. By the way, I do use a couple layers of heavy duty aluminum foil as a base for my Zelph stove.

Brian many thru's have used alky stoves and several fires have been started on the PCT using them.
The problem is people without sufficient knowledge and understanding of their stoves, they get an alcohol stove because that's what they are told they need.

They are not as forgiving of error as other styles of stove, some people don't even realize they kicked flaming liquid out onto the ground until it is too late.

Below is just one example from 2004

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=66725

"You're thinking that alcohol is immiscible, like a burning gasoline slick."

That's the thing - in my situation that I mentioned on my first test trip with an alchy stove - it had been raining (I'm in Seattle after all), and I had 8oz of water on top of the stove. When the accident happened, I watched fire spread across much of the 2' fire ring. The water I was heating, nor the very well saturated ground in the fire ring, had zero effect on the denatured alcohol (SLX to be exact).

I agree that alcohol stoves can be used safely by considerate people. But I disagree with your original point that "I'm not sure I'm buying the argument that canister stoves are inherently so much safer than alky stoves."

Me - I'm a clutz, so alchy stoves are just a big no-no :-)

"Now one guy has an accident and people are sounding the alarm?"

...if you believe only one guy has had an accident. As another poster pointed out, there have been others reported. And how many were not reported? How many near-forest fires? How many lucked out by enough rain and the only lasting effects were a night of pucker-factor?

Edited by Kieran on 05/21/2012 23:16:55 MDT.

Wow! That's a sobering journal entry, Chris. Thanks for the link.

If a canister stove were to tip over, it can be recovered quickly n flame turned off.

Tip an alchy n you have invisable blue flames spreding fast as it runs everywhere n perhaps splashed the user as well.

safe?

... I am surprised the whole backcountry isn't up in flames. This is a screen shot of a "tutorial" on the Backpacker Magazine web site. It isn't about an alcohol stove, it's about and emergency fire, but if the "experts" (does BM have editors?) can't do better than this in their education materials, there will be a significant portion of backcountry users that won't have the skills to handle fire (of any kind) safely.



Rather than an "emergency fire" I think we are looking at a "fire emergency" here!

Mina

Hi Kier,
I use an alcohol stove frequently, both penny-style and Super Cat. I accept that they are "less forgiving of error" as the poster above you points out, and also that using my canister stove would be a better choice with increased fire danger, even if the alky stove is still allowed.

Like Dean Fellabaum, I was surprised by your contention that water would spread and alcohol flame, so yesterday I tried a quick backyard test (I have a big patch of bare ground that's just cleared for a pumpkin patch). Of course, the one-time results I got don't invalidate your experience.

I filled a Super Cat with alcohol and lit it, then tipped it over (using a long stick to stay clear). The burning alcohol made a pool not much larger than the diameter of the stove, and burned for about 30 seconds before soaking into the soil and going out. This was loose, damp ground. Obviously, results could have been much different on dry hardpan covered with combustibles.

I did the same thing again, this time with the stove on an impermeable surface (a sheet of aluminum). The burning alcohol spread very rapidly to a large diameter pool. If this had been the top of a rock, I can imagine burning alcohol dripping to the ground (and potential combustibles) below.

However, pouring a pint of water on the flame put it out immediately, with no sign that the water was spreading the flame further.

Obviously, I'd likely get different results doing this more than once. Repeating near dark when I could really see the flame pattern would be helpful, too.

It's always recommended people spend plenty of time learning to use a stove before relying on it in the field. Maybe spending some time experimenting with what can go wrong and how to react quickly (and appropriately) to prevent disaster could be useful, too. I'll be practicing more with this now, including with a pot of water on top as in your scenario.

>> When the accident happened, I watched fire spread across much of the 2' fire ring. The water I was heating, nor the very well saturated ground in the fire ring, had zero effect on the denatured alcohol

So, you're seriously trying to tell me that you mixed 16oz of water and 1oz of alcohol and it continued to burn?

BS.

I mean, seriously, no.

Your water went somewhere else- it didn't mix with the alcohol. I also doubt that 1oz of alcohol would spread over a 2' diameter, unless it was on a totally nonporous surface like sheet metal or rock or something. Was it on a rock? Either that or you spilled a LOT of alcohol trying to fill your stove with those frozen fingers you mentioned.

I also did a bit of experimenting in the back yard last night- only Everclear, no HEET, sorry. A) I had no trouble stomping out a 1oz Everclear fire. There was no shoe combustion. B) Dumping water on a 1oz Everclear fire doused it immediately (500mL water). No alcohol floated. This was, admittedly, on a bare patch of my lawn not on pine duff. But you shouldn't have pine duff anyway if you have an adequate fire ring.

I would propose that the rain prior to your spill only dampened whatever surface you had it on- THAT I will agree wouldn't be enough to douse it. I think you left something important out of the description of your incident. Was it on rock, or was it dirt or old ashes or something? Or maybe frozen?- that would also be a pretty nonporous surface. (But on the other hand not much of a fire hazard.)

And it STILL wasn't an issue because you (apparently) were acting responsibly in choosing or preparing your cooking area. THAT'S my point.

Look, all I'm saying is that suddenly getting all alarmist about alcohol stoves is kind of ludicrous. They are no particular fire danger if you just take all of the precautions we have all had beaten into us, like fire rings. Jim's original post title was somewhat alarmist- "Alcohol cookers...please be careful out there". It sort of presupposes some inordinate danger with alcohol stoves, like saying "motorcyclists who don't use helmets...please be careful out there." Which is RIDICULOUS.

"Tarp campers...please be careful out there!"
"Quilt users...please be careful out there!"
"Steripen users...please be careful out there!"
"Californians...please be careful out there!"

Is ANYONE getting my point about this alarmism?

Edited by acrosome on 05/22/2012 12:08:35 MDT.