It's happening! The Grand Canyon R2R2R group run this past April turned out to be one hell of a weekend for the small band of endurance/trail running fiends that braved their ugly faces (*Mike Moore is exempt from my last comment inpart because of his mustache and the diameter of his arms).

What: A full East/West traverse (~48 miles) of Zion National Park in a single day. This will be done in the fashion of a self supported run- this is NOT intended to be an overnight or multiday trip, so an honest understanding of one's physical condition and mental resolve before signing up should be seriously weighed in your planning.




When: Saturday, October 27th, 2012

Where: Zion National Park, UT (Lee's Pass> E. Rim) *traverse direction TBD.

Who: Anyone that fully understands the difficulty and commitment required in doing a self-supported wilderness run of this nature.


Stoke inducing run reports and "ZT" beta:

http://andrewskurka.com/adventures/zion-national-park-traverse/

http://adventurerun.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/zion-traverse/

http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/transziontrek.cfm

http://cedarandsand.blogspot.com/2010/07/trans-zion.html

http://www.suluk46.com/adventure%20-%20Zion%20National%20Park.html


*I will update this original posting and maintain an interest list of runners as time goes on, so click the "Watch this thread" button in the right hand corner to stay current as details get flushed out.

Edited by Eugeneius on 07/19/2012 20:56:00 MDT.

for those who aren't aware, Eugene leads guided tours at Disney World during the non running season.

Watch button activated, interest high,
depending on what date you all come up with.
the later you can make it the more likely I'll be able to show.

Edited by asandh on 05/11/2012 08:50:14 MDT.

I am highly interested in this. I did most of this traverse a few years ago. We did the 39 mile option ending at the Grotto.

Eugene- was hoping you would post this up- I'm in :)

if it can be pulled off late Sept/early Oct the better for me (mid October and later gets into our big game season and I can't get time off)

also have been reading two school of thoughts on east bound vs west bound- many feel east to west there is less climbing, but the tough climb comes near the end of the run (Grotto to East Entrance), others west bound feel that getting the tough climb out of the way earlier (Grotto to West Rim Trail) is better

one other possibility is to do both, have two groups going opposite directions- this would make shuttling easier

anyway I've been wanting to go to Zion for a long time, hope this is the time

Mike

Oh yes. It's on and I will be there.

As mentioned before, I would be good with either the last weekend of September or first weekend of October.

I'm guessing it would be a similar affair to the R2R2R: get in Thursday night or Friday morning, hang out, run Saturday, and head home Sunday?

Edited by xnomanx on 05/11/2012 08:42:09 MDT.

Something to shoot for :
new FKT on Zion Traverse, May 3 ?

New Zion FKT

I'm in. Any weekend is good for me as long as I have a few weeks notice.

I'm getting excited already.

BB

Last weekend of Sep. or first of Oct. is also ideal for me as well. I have a 50 miler the 3rd weekend in Oct and would like to have a small buffer to recover before going into that, but if necessary, I would totally pass on the 50 to run the Traverse with all of you.

Any idea when the peak time is for Zion traverses? Mid Oct?

Dan recently sent me a link from folks that are starting to offer support for adventure based running and apparently they plan to offer run support in Zion the second week of Oct.

For some reason the Paul Simon song "Still Crazy" popped into my mind, unbidden, when I read this. No offense intended.

When I did this before I had a non-running friend meet us at the Kolob Reservoir road crossing with aid. We also got water from springs at Potato Hollow on the West Rim. And of course Zion Canyon could be another resupply point.

Awesome, another crack at the ultra distance, and with an awesome crew again. Super stoked. Zion looks amazeballs.

Zion To do list:

shift my schedule
beg my wife
heal my knee
trick my boss
keep up with Wisner

I got this.

My Zion to do list (strangely similar to Adan's):


Beg wife: Done.
Vacation Time: Done.
Heal my knee: in progress
Keep Adan from getting faster than me: TBD

Excited already.

begged wife- shakes head :)

vacation- got a lot of that

injuries- hopefully not too many between then and now

I'm half way of thinking about driving (although flights to Las Vegas are usually very cheap), have a new Tacoma that would be fun to drive down

also excited!

I would love to be apart of this. I am quite new to trail running and I am not sure if starting a training plan now would give me enough time to get up to ultra distances by Fall (but maybe I am thinking too conservatively). I have done two 10K races, fastest time was 7min pace and I have a half marathon trail race over Mt. Greylock (MA) next month. What are your thoughts? Is this achievable for me? I think I have a good base, I just haven't done this long of a run in one go.

Angelo - its not about speed so much as it is about survival.
if you are healthy and already in good shape then 5 months should be bordline enough time to get in the kind of shape this event requires.

I would not be concerned about 7min pace 10k's.
rather get out there and slowly jog/power walk 20 miles, then 25 miles, then maybe even 30 miles.
do this at least once every 2 weeks. do it every week if you are in good enough shape so that you won't injure yourself.
do not be concerned with time on these runs, just be concerned with doing them, with maybe a 5-8 lb pack on your back.

I was (am :)) still a newbie when it comes to these long distances. I just put my mind to it and started off slowly, trying to add mileage weekly and incrementally increasing my long run (usually on Saturdays). Check out our old training log thread for an idea of what kind of mileage guys were racking up leading up towards our Grand Canyon run. I figured worse case scenario for me was I'd be in really good shape :)

If we run east to west, there is a good bail out @ the Grotto, still a long way (~37 miles), but less than 47 :)

I say go for it!

Thank you for the support. I am going to mull it over, look over logistics ($$) and hopefully I can join you. Watching the thread and will keep an eye on what date you pick.

as you check into logistics, assuming you're flying (kind of a long drive for you :)), look into flights into Las Vegas- you can often find cheap flights to Vegas and you're only 160 miles from Zion NP

should we at least tentatively set a date? last week of September work? I know a few guys have something going on in late October, having a month in between might be more advantageous than 3 weeks????????

Is this still happening?
Anyone out there wanna do it still?

Craig- I'd certainly like to do it. I'm wondering if we would be better off waiting until spring. It's a fair bit of travel for me (and expense), I have a better time convincing the boss if the adventure runs were to happen once a year :)

My thought was maybe we can pick a different spot each year to get together and run- this would certainly be a dandy, no doubt about that.

How's the IT coming along? I'm making some progress w/ my achilles (and possibly underlying problem of overly tight calves).

My Bridger Ridge Run is one month out and am planning a full course recce for the weekend following this one.

Mike

I am interested in principle, but have Wasatch Sep 7-8 and will probably be a physical and mental blob for a few weeks after that.

by the way is the Craig Wisner with the IT problem the same one who just spent a hardcore week in the Sierras ?

Thanks guys....The IT band *seems* under control now. I can manage 35+ MPW and it did really well on some steep quad-buster stuff in the Sierra.

So we'll wait and see if anyone else rears their head for this run and see what they have to say...Seems like it's losing momentum. We'll see.

As for spring, I was thinking about the Rae Lakes loop, but it's all flexible.

Hope you're doing good guys.

there's a good chance John and I will be doing Rae Lakes Loop in about 4 weeks (Aug 10-12) if anyone is interested.
we are looking at an East Side approach via Onion Valley. but the extra 12 miles and 4,000 of elevation gain is a bit daunting, so not certain of which approach we'll use.

Craig- glad the IT is doing better! I'm pretty flexible as well. I'm definitely down for a spring run- Rae Lakes would be just fine by me. Guessing it would probably be pretty late spring (even early summer?) for Rae Lakes?

Art- how is your achilles coming along?

Mike

Mike - good luck with your Bridger Ridge Run. isn't there a lottery or something?

my achilles (except for the last couple weeks) is improving and doing better than last year and earlier this year.
what seems to help most is serious stretching of my "upper" calf muscle. used to focus on my lower calf, but significant improvement since I began upper calf work.

Art- yeah I got drawn :), my buddy didn't :(

good to know, I'm 95% sure my achilles problems arise from my tight calves- so I've been doing a fair amount of stretching (often just a couple of miles into a run when I can feel them tighten up)- I've also become a convert to rolling (MCT), seems to help even more than static stretching

Mike

Wow, why is it every time I get bored and need a training challenge you guys come to the rescue. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't run since the r2r2r trip BUT I have had plenty of 40 mile hiking days on the AT. So, given that I have almost three months to get back in running shape I am very interested in this. Have a slightly longer flight this time, I'm in the process of moving to PA but I think I can pull this off. Put me down as a very definite maybe. Now I have something to train for!

I'm definitely still planning on doing this with ya'll. I'm unavailable on the weekend of October 13th(Firetrails 50) but am otherwise wide open.

Lets get a date set in stone and a bet people will start committing.

All this Rae Lakes talk is making me happy. Anytime you guys want to plan that I'll happily be there. Once a year isn't quite enough.

B

Brian
John and I have two tentative dates for the Sierras "

July 20-22
Aug 10-12

not sure which trail on which dates, but most likely Reds Meadow-Tuolumne first, then Rae Lakes Loop second.

I'm not sure if I'm going to make this happen fellas, despite getting this ball rolling. Lame.

I am planning to run Deadman Peaks 50 Oct. 20, not registered yet, but fully intend to be there and hopefully figure that distance and course out. Also on the radar is the Mt. Taylor 50K at the end of Sept. and hopefully the Tommy Knocker 24hr mtb race at the beginning of Sept. Somewhere in all of that I would have to fit in Zion and I don't think work changes, budget, and family is all going to jive with this.

So, at this point, it's looking like I'm a no go for Zion unless I just bail out on Deadman entirely, which is tempting, because a weekend with all of you would easily top Deadman.

OK, How's about Saturday, October 13th for the run?

My preferences:
1. That's the second weekend of October; temps start dropping pretty good after September- might as well put a little distance between our run and higher average temps. October is a bout as good as it gets out there concerning temps and precip.
2. An extra week or two of training would be beneficial for me after coming off my ITB issues.
3. Whatever date we decide, I'd prefer doing the run on Saturday. I'd travel Thursday afternoon/night, camp in the park (South Campground) and relax on Friday, run Sat., head home Sunday afternoon. My family will likely come with me for this one so they'll want to stay in the park.

October 13th is the one weekend that does not work for me(Firetrails 50) but if it works for the majority then by all means go for it!

How about Saturday, October 6th? Too close to your other run Brian? Or bump it all the way back to September 29th? Anything before that will be too early for me training-wise.

Seems like group interest in this trip has quickly waned...I'm pretty much planning on doing it regardless (even if I end up running solo), so if anyone else is still interested in getting a group together, chime in. Otherwise, I'll start making solo plans for it.

I'm still here Craig, sorry for the lack of participation in this lately. Please don't mistake my silence as a sign of waning interest, quite the opposite actually. Deadman Peaks is going to take a seat to doing Zion this year, this is just too awesome to risk missing.

I was going to suggest the last weekend as well, the beginning of Oct is a little too close to a 50K for me in late Sept.

So...... two votes for Oct 29, anyone else?

Early to mid Oct seems to be peak Zion traverse time, is there a reason for this?

I don't mind layering up appropriately if it gets pushed back, could it be anymore more adverse than what we saw at the R2R2R back in April? I doubt it.

One thing is for sure, we need to "schedule" in some serious brew time post run this time around. I have a feeling our last gathering was only a teaser.

September 29th works for me....I can commit to that!

I'd be driving out either Thursday night or Friday morning......and then return to SoCal on Sunday afternoon/early evening.

There's a few good spots on BLM land just outside of the park....or we could camp at the campground right near the entrance(can't remember the name). It's very convenient and would be a nice spot for chillin/grillin.

BB

"So...... two votes for Oct 29, anyone else?"

Did you mean September 29? Or October 29 (which is a Monday)?

I'm down for September 29th for sure....

Glad to hear you're still into it Eugene. I was starting to write it off and look for some other fall runs to do but no "official" races out there seem nearly as cool as Zion.

My vote is for staying at the main campground in the park...my family will be with me for this one and it's a great spot to hang out.

Edited by xnomanx on 07/18/2012 10:42:00 MDT.

BB and CW,

I assume you both mean Oct. 29th correct? By "bump back" Craig did you mean to push back the date? September 29th would most likely not work for me.

It looks like Craig and I were both thinking September 29th.....but I can really do anytime other than the 13th of October. Later in the month is fine for me as I like cold/inclement weather:-)

it would help if I looked at the calendar.....yes, Saturday Oct. 27th.


Thoughts? Conflicts?

Internet lag.....

OK...October 29th is a Monday. I'm assuming we don't want that...
October 27th is Saturday. I would be down for October 27th. It would actually be better for me to run later in the month.

I like October 27th best. Let's do it.

Edited by xnomanx on 07/18/2012 10:45:27 MDT.

October 27th. That'll work for me.

really would like to do this one, but on the fence if I'll make it.
can't make a decision until after Sep 9.

but Oct 27 would be a great date.

Halloween Run (close at least...)!!!!!

Near full moon as well (oct. 29)

Ok, let's call it, Oct. 27th.

Does anyone know of a good beginners C2ZT (Couch to Zion Traverse) training plan I can start?

Post R2R2R hasn't been good to me. ;-p

Are we thinking we'll group camp ala 'Wisner' style, you know, "Leave no trace" and all that jazz? For the R2R2R he even brought crows along to clean up our food scraps while we ran.


I joke with ya brother.

That was embarrassing. I felt terrible for Rob...It seems we left the place in total shambles. I was digging beer bottles and food out of the snow for a good while the next morning, using a tent pole like an avalanche probe. I know the crows took an entire baguette, two apples, bananas (?!)...at minimum.

Post R2R2R hasn't been great to me either...Coming off the ITB issues, I've barely started getting back into good mileage; basically starting fresh. Just getting over a nasty lung infection too- the last week has been lots of sleeping and Modern Warfare 3 Multiplayer madness on the XBox with my son :)

So late October is even better!

I'll try, I've got the date penciled in. Out deer/elk season gets into full swing end of October, so it's a tougher time for me to get away. I do think the date as far as weather is very close to optimal, cooler = better for me (this heat wave is nearly doing me in!)

Next questions are East vs. Westbound running and where we're staying.
My vote is for camping at the main Campground (either Watchman or South Campground).

Skurka recommends going westbound, finishing at Lee's Pass, because the bulk of the climbing is done earlier in the run.

If we stay in the main campground, it seems much easier to start on the far end and essentially run towards home (eastbound) rather than away; runners could filter into camp on their own time and cars could be picked up/shuttled again the next day (unless we could get a dropoff driver who isn't running...possibly my wife). One could also bail at the Grotto if necessary and catch a tram back to cut some miles. And honestly, after the R2R2R, some climbing at the end of the day is not a big deal to me.


?????

going west to east w/ the ability to bail at the Grotto would be a plus for me- I think it's at somewhere near the 32 mile mark

Eastbound sounds fine to me....being able to get back to camp quickly is pretty appealing.

My birthday is the 24th.....so I'm treating this like a birthday trip. I'll be bringing ample amounts of food/beverages. I may even take a few extra days off work and hang around the area a bit.

B

Eastbound and down!

@Mike,

I hope you can be here for this, as with everyone else. I know last winter heading into April you had a nagging injury and adverse training conditions with that Montana winter. With your upcoming race and a solid block of cool, not frigid, fall weather coming you will probably cruise right past the Grotto.

When is your race?

Hope you can make it Mike.

...also hoping my knee holds up in training. So far, so good.

Let's do it gentlemen.

I'm definitely on more terra firma as far as training goes vs last spring, my weekly mileage is now solidly in the mid to upper 30's and I've got a couple of 20 milers under my belt as well

race is coming up shortly- 8/11, I'm headed there this coming weekend- hoping to run the entire route w/ a buddy who ran it last year (but got nixed on the drawing this year)

if I can make it happen I'm going to be in Zion, had a great time this past spring running and visiting with everyone!

Mike

I have reservations about my ability to focus enough on this trip to be properly prepared, but Im with Eugene in being interested in a good beginners C2ZT training plan. Ive been hiking a lot, running a little. I always train better with a goal, so put me down as a big maybe.

I have a 12.8 mi 6,000ft elevation change hike tomorrow up Old Baldy Trail that should kick my butt.

The ability to bail at the Grotto makes this seem surmountable. I'll look through your R2R2R thread for mileage expectations.

Hit me up and we'll hike or run Baldy or some other locals together Brandon. Hope you can make it.

Sounds like a plan. I am still at the point where my "long runs" will have to be hikes. I wanna hike the Three T's (~14mi), maybe Mt. Wilson (~15mi), or Iron Mountain (~15mi). I am hoping the 'time on your feet plus elevation' wisdom works out.

Here we go again, maybe this time without snow! I am 95% in, I will not be near as ready as the r2r2r but this is too good to miss.. I am looking forward to meeting the whole crew again. Will talk to the mrs after our move and see if she want to join the festivitie. Hope we have a few more folks as well. For all of you on the fence this was a great event with fabulous people in April. Wait.... I see what's happening, this has been pushed to late October to allow a better chance of snow. I see a trend. Thanks Craig for giving this the energy to happen.

I was being tongue in cheek Brandon. This will be my first TZ rodeo and the distance is substantial, so I will definitely prepare as I would for any ultra distance.

My volume is down, but not the quality. I've been trying to run when it doesn't feel forced. Haven't been doing any "long" runs, not tracking miles, but usually get in x3 1.5-2 hr runs a week and one or two short/intense climbing specific runs.

Weather stats for Zion in Oct. are optimal..... but let's not jinx it. shhhhhh.





















Now, where did I put my tights and gloves?

Not trying to psyche anyone out, just being realistic about this run and some possible differences between it and a R2R2R...just some food for thought for those considering it.

From what I've looked at on maps, it strikes me that you better be a bit more on your game on this one. You can't get lost on a R2R2R and you have anywhere in the first 20 miles to turn back if you're not feeling it. With the TZ being point to point, you sort of have to finish the whole enchilada, or at minimum make it 50K to the Grotto. In addition, while it's a marked trail system, there are FAR more opportunities to make a wrong turn or take a side canyon. I also suspect there's less human traffic than in the canyon in many spots. Due to likely having to shuttle all the way to Lee's Pass on the morning of the run, we might have to start later, basically guaranteeing the back of the packer's will be out well past dark.

Despite our crazy weather on the R2R2R, it seems a good mapset/navigation tools (which I didn't even carry in the canyon) and emergency kit are far more necessary on this one.

If you haven't already checked it out, Skurka has a great mapset ready to download for this route- only drawback for me is that it doesn't include UTM coordinates. I'd likely want to carry a simple GPS on this run just in case.

Edited by xnomanx on 07/19/2012 20:25:12 MDT.

we'll want to research the water situation pretty thoroughly as well- no man made pumps here :)

Eugene- when you get a chance, might want to update your first post w/ the date, danke

Again, Skurka put some good information together there...

http://andrewskurka.com/wp-content/uploads/zion-databook.pdf

His databook combined with his map pack is great; his maps are annotated with water sources and mileage markers. Gonna go down to my printers and make some copies.

Edited by xnomanx on 07/19/2012 22:09:09 MDT.

Craig- good stuff :) I do wonder if his water sources hold true in late October, I know that in more arid areas Spring sources don't always equate to reliable Fall sources. Might not hurt to bounce some of the more questionable sources by one of the local rangers as we get a little closer.

from that pdf if everything is flowing looks like water ~ every 5-7 miles, w/ the exception of Beatty Spring till the next water source which is 12 miles- although he makes note that it is FAIRLY reliable :)

Mike

I will be out in Utah and Arizona for the week prior to the Oct. 27th date. I have been training for either Trans Zion or a R2R2R during that week, and think I would enjoy doing this with other people.

What kind of total time should be anticipated for Trans Zion?

Kevin, glad you're interested, hope you can make it out with us.

Regarding time? I'm expecting to be out on my feet for at least 12hrs, probably closer to 13hrs. This is all based on pure conjecture having looked at the Zion traverse map and knowing my slow pace over this distance.

Every runner is going to have highs and lows throughout the day and come into this with varying levels of fitness and experience, so I imagine individual times will run the gamut as they did this past April for our R2R2R.

looks like we'll have roughly 10.5 hrs of light at the end of October, a good lamp is going to be a must (unless your really fast :))

Thanks for the feedback... I am attempting a 26 mile trail run/hike in the Adirondacks this weekend, weather permitting. That should give me a good gauge of my pace. Although the ADK's aren't like a lot of the parks out west with "runnable/joggable" trail, some will be and I can power-hike the rest.

.

Edited by annapurna on 08/13/2012 12:37:57 MDT.

Bump.

I have a small list of names from those who have expressed interest. Keep em coming.

Anyone care to throw in ideas for shuttling?

Im going to call "El Wisner" this evening to mull over the vehicle situation.

Also.... How are those runs going?

I'm feeling the urgency now and the 90-100f heat we've had the last two months or so is losing steam.

Eugene- I'll have a little better idea as we get closer, but if I bail at the Grotto- I could grab a vehicle and pick up at least some of the crew

I'll likely be driving this time, so I'll have a vehicle available that can probably haul 5 semi-comfortably

I completed the Bridger Ridge run this last weekend, it's really hard to put into words how brutal this was :) but my conditioning is above where it was on our R2R2R adventure because of it

Mike

Yes!

Look at that guy!


Great photo Mike and nice run. I will be trying to keep up with you.

Uh Oh, look at the quads on that dude...

Congrats Mike, looking forward to running again.

I was just in southwest Utah for a few weeks and had time to check out some of the Zion trailheads and talk to backcountry rangers. It seems we might need quite a few cars out there....I'll post all the possible details after talking to Eugene later.

Edited by xnomanx on 08/13/2012 13:09:40 MDT.

Great job Mike ... you look strong.

Since I'm about 50-50 on this one I won't get involved in the planning. Whatever you all come up with is fine. I'll be in shape, just a matter if I can make it.

much thanks gents! I can tell you that the last 3 miles of the course drops 3000' and when I got to the finish line it turns out someone had completely stolen my quads :)

I noticed there are several shuttle services in the area, I'll see if they would be interested in an early pickup- most of the schedules they show are too late for our use; w/ 6-8 (more??) it might be pretty reasonable???

The basic issues I saw/questions I have are these:

**If we run from Lee's Pass to East rim (as discussed)...the trail finishes a long way from the campground and pedestrians/bikes are not allowed through the tunnel on the road to get back. There is, however, plenty of space to leave cars at the East Rim trailhead. Problem here, is who is going to wait for everyone? It's a comfortable enough spot, has a picnic table...but there could be many hours difference between the first and last finishers. Seems we need a few cars there for different finish times?

**If someone bails at the Grotto or Weeping Rock, down in the canyon, how could it be communicated to everyone waiting at East Rim? Unless a car is left at Weeping Rock or the Grotto overnight (which I'm not sure is allowed), it's still a good walk back to camp. Not sure it would save too much distance.

**There is a private campground up on the rim at the east entrance of the park. I checked...it's exactly one mile from the East Rim trailhead. That could be a good option to stay at because finishers could filter back to camp at their own pace. Only issue there: it eliminates being able to bail at Grotto or Weeping Rock unless a car was left there.

**A lot of this seems it might depend on a final headcount and how many cars we have.

Craig- where is the camp spot in the park that we are thinking about currently?

I emailed a couple of the shuttle services to see if they would even entertain an early shuttle. I'll post up when I find anything out.

MIke

a couple quick questions on the route (I haven't taken a serious look yet so may sound dumb).

1. Is the entire route on "offical" park trail or is some of it quasi cross country?

2. Is it one long trail, or a combination of several?

3. does anyone know the overall elevation gain of the route?

Art- it's official trail, several different trails, ~ 10,000' of gain (and roughly the same loss I believe)

MIke

Here's a post on today's run...it was a good one.

http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/cucamonga-peak-bighorn-peak-ontario-peak-81612/




_________________________________________________________

Let's get psyched! Post yer Trials of Miles or Miles of Trials!

Edited by xnomanx on 08/16/2012 21:55:11 MDT.

Craig- looks like a great run-good rugged country! nice that you got so close to the Bighorns- one of the neatest animals we have in North America imo

I went for my first run since the race on Wednesday- ~ 6 miles hilly terrain, actually felt pretty good :)

I'm going on a 21 mile loop Saturday for work in the Crazies, I'll be going w/ another warden so I probably won't break into a run :) Should be getting ~ 6500' of gain (and loss), about 3 miles will be off trail to complete the loop.

I plan on getting back into my four days a week run routine next week. My longest runs previous to the race were right at 20 miles, I hope to get a few approaching 30 miles prior to Zion.

Here's some pics of a 18 mile run I did a couple of weeks before the race- Torrey Lake- elevation 9100', it's in the East Pioneer Mtns in SW MT

Jacobson Meadow- a neat mountain meadow that was over 3 miles long



Tweedy Mtn (11,500') on the way up



Torrey Lake



Torrey Mtn (11,600')

our 22 mile jaunt Saturday

Crazies DIAD

don't know if this is something we're still interested in, but sounds like they are willing to accommodate us, got an email back today- I'll call for exact pricing

"Hello,

Sounds fun! Sure we typically do run the Lee Pass shuttle at requested times (or close to.) Please give us a call to find out availability, time and pricing. If you have 12 or more, we can give you a 10% discount.


Thank you,

Zion Rock & Mountain Guides
Bike Zion
1458 Zion Park Blvd.
Springdale, UT 84767
Ph. 435.772.3303
Fax 435.772.3133
www.zionrockguides.com"

Sounds good.
I have a feeling we'll have a smaller group and might not have enough cars to leave at both ends.
Maybe we could leave a few cars at the East Rim trailhead and hire the shuttle to Lee's Pass if it's not too pricey...

Unfortunately, the East Rim Trailhead finish is MANY miles of road from the main campgrounds and passes through the tunnel- no pedestrians allowed. So faster finishers will have to wait at the East Rim trailhead to collect everyone and drive back to camp together. A couple cars there would spare the faster finishers too long of a wait for the slower ones.
There is a picnic table there and it's a comfortable enough place to hang out. If food/drinks/coolers, chairs, changes of clothes, etc. are left in the cars there, the wait would be comfortable enough. We could almost setup a makeshift camp. I'll have to call the rangers to see if the gate to that trailhead ever gets locked..pretty sure it's open, as many people backpack from there.

Only thing I don't like about that plan: if someone at the back of the pack has to bail or can't go on, there's no way to get word to the people waiting at the cars...

Craig- called the shuttle service, looks like it's $35/person (less if we get 10+) to shuttle us from the campground to Lee's Pass. I have to call them to see if they accommodate a very early start.

Depending on how many folks we have we can certainly shuttle multiple vehicles to the East Rim TH the evening before (just have enough vehicle(s) to get us back to camp. If we have 3-4 vehicles there, the faster guys can take a vehicle back, medium guys a vehicle back, slow guys a vehicle back. If someone unexpectedly bails and shows up at camp, then one of the faster guys might have to drive back to the East Rim to let the remaining folks know they can head "home".

Mike

$35 a person is totally reasonable to me. It's a long drive.

As for people bailing early (like at the Grotto or Weeping Rock) I'm not sure how practical it is. Unless a car is left at one of those parking lots (which I don't believe is allowed overnight) or the free canyon shuttle service is still running, it's still a pretty long walk back to camp...likely not that much shorter than just finishing at East Rim. We should definitely find out what the shuttle hours are during Fall.

as luck would have it looks like the free park shuttle runs through 10/28 :), ~ every 15 minutes from 7:00 AM to 7:45 PM

7am will be a late start.

4-5am start sounds right yeah?

We will be working with less day light.

agreed- those are just the times the free park shuttle that runs up the main corridor in the event someone needs to bail at the Grotto- that way they don't have to walk back to camp :)

4-5 AM sounds about right to me, we'll want to get a hour or two w/ headlamps and get a good head start for the day

I'm calling the shuttle outfit tomorrow to confirm that they can pick us up early, they might charge a little more to pick us up outside their normal shuttle hours?????

4-5 AM start sounds good...meaning we'd need to be picked up nearly 1 to 1.5 hours earlier for the drive and dropoff. Ouch.

sounds like they're willing to pick us up at 4:00 AM, said it will cost a little more to do so, but not much more

he also said it's a 50 minute drive from the campground to Lee's Pass, we'll have very close to a full moon (full moon on the 29th) so that might help a little; sunrise is 7:54 so we should have decent light around 7:30- that'll mean roughly 2.5 hours w/ headlamps

sunset is 6:30 PM, so we should have decent light until 7-ish

Nice!

That's not bad at all. I think I was up @ 330 the R2R2R in anticipation. If it's anything like running the trails in my area under a full moon, headlamps may not even be necessary. ;-)

Thanks for doing all the planning legwork guys, I appreciate it. I haven't had much of a presence on this thread but I am most definitely in.

The 4am pickup sounds great to me. I'll be up and jittery by then anyway!

BB

This all sounds good to me!

what are you guys thinking for packs? I was thinking two handhelds- one water, one Perpetuem and then a small pack w/ a 2.0 liter bladder- that should get a guy through the longer stretches water wise

do you think the Nathan HPL 020 or Ultraspire Surge would be big enough? I'd like to try a vest pack this go round if possible

Mike

I'll likely use a 70oz bladder in one of my packs......with possibly 1 hand held if I'm feeling like I need extra capacity.

I've been using 3 different running packs(Nathan, MH Fluid 6 and Camelbak Marathoner) lately and I really like all of them.

The Nathan has been my standby for several years. It's a great pack with it's main drawback being storage capacity and bladder filling when the pack is stuffed full.

The MH Fluid 6 is a neat pack. Very lightweight with a large amount of storage. The pockets on the front of the straps are smaller than the Nathan pockets but the main pack body is huge. The other benefit of the MH pack is that the side pockets are big enough to carry a bottle on each side.

The Camelbak Marathoner pack is really interesting. The pockets on the front of the straps are large enough for a bottle on each side. I really like being able to stow my hand-bottles if they're empty and this pack is great for that. It also carries really well and it's easy to fill the bladder. There's fairly limited in terms of cargo capacity but if you don't need extra layers it should be enough for something like Trans-Zion.

Hope that helps a bit if you haven't bought anything yet. I think if I could only have one it would likely be the Nathan. I think it's the best mix of features/weight/size.

BB

Mike
like Brian, I run with the Nathan HPL 20 quite a bit.
it works great for 5-7 hour training runs, or long races with aid stations where you have a crew or drop bags with extra gear.
for a long self contained run like RRR or Zion I'm not sure it's big enough for all the clothing you may want to carry in addtion to food and water.
Brian will be done so fast he won't need extras, but for average guys like us ... maybe something a bit larger than the Nathan.

I have been looking at the Ultraspire Omega. it is a vest pack but larger than the Surge. it was specifically designed for Krissy Moehl to win the UTMB a few years back (the classic European 100 miler).
It is a bit expensive, assuming you can get hold of one.

Another option I use for long slow self contained stuff (used it at RRR and Sierras this summer) is the Black Diamond Bbee. It is not running specific but rides decent enough if you're not a speedster. its also only $50.

Ultraspire Omega

Nathan HPL 20 = 5 liters (maybe)(doesn't hold much)
Ultraspire Omega = 8.2 liters
Black Diamond Bbee = 11 liters

Edited by asandh on 08/24/2012 18:49:11 MDT.

If anyone is interested in the Fluid 6.....here's a really good deal.

http://www.o2gearshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=49953&p=Mountain_Hardwear_Fluid_6_Pack&m=Mountain_Hardwear&zmam=55982562&zmas=3&zmac=648&zmap=49953&gclid=CMCY87zGgbICFQXhQgodly4Aog

BB

Depends on the forecast.

If I don't need many layers (shorts, t shirt, arm warmers, windshirt/maybe windpants, beanie, gloves will easily take me into the high 30s), I'll carry my Nathan HPL20 with a 2 liter bladder (no hose) and one 24oz. handheld. The storage space in the Nathan is limited, especially with a 2L bladder, but a small stuffsack of light clothing can easily be cinched to the shock cord on the outside and rides secure. I know I can fit a Houdini, arm warmers, Dynamo windpants, light beanie, and light gloves this way.

If I need more clothing/layers (rain shell and/or any further insulation), I'll carry my Black Diamond BB with a 2 liter and one 24oz handheld. I love this pack, it rides really well and can pack an amazing amount of stuff for its size.

Brain and Art- thanks for the feedback :)

I didn't know MH made pack/vests- the Fluid 6 looks like a very viable option, @ 9.9 oz it's feathery light! How does it carry vs the Nathan? the larger front pockets of the Nathan do look handy- salt tabs, shot blocks, camera, sunscreen, etc but more capacity in the main pack would probably trump that for an unsupported run like Zion

The Omega looks like a dandy for Zion, very similar to the Surge, but more volume- kind of pricey, but the reviews are certainly good

Mike

The Fluid 6 does have pockets on the front.....just not nearly as big as the Nathan. I typically put a camera in one and 3-4 bars/gus in the other.

It carries fairly similar to the Nathan I would say.....nothing really jumps out at me as different.

BB

danke :) that is a good deal @ O2

best price I've seen for the Omega is online at Runningwarehouse,$124 and free shipping.
I'm right on the edge of getting one myself.

Omega at Runningwarehouse

Art- try runblog10 in the coupon section, should give you 10% off :)

Still working out some fit issues, otherwise this may be the perfect pack.

I've got a couple of places you can try that pack out to see how successful it works as a grizzly deterrent when you curl up and lay on the ground :)

I ended up pulling the pin on the MH Fluid 6, had to add a Cap 1 shirt (1/2 price) to get free shipping (over $49)- the shipping was $13 w/o!!!!

I think Eugene's pack would be great for mountain lion country.
is there a wrap around neck piece that comes with it ?

you guys may have already seen this, but I almost spit my morning coffee out watching it :)

$hit ultra runners say

I had a great run this morning :) the area that I normally run I've got to learn rather intimately-I know the mileage, my normal splits, how to shorten or lengthen a loop to my needs, hazards, etc

This morning I was about 3 miles into my run with a very definite route in mind, when I looked over at some ridges that were trailless and thus have never been on. I said screw the route and decided I'd go exploring. I'd hit an occasional game trail, but for the most part it was all off trail. Up one ridge, down another- get to a small cliff, turn around and look for another way around, more ridges to run, more ways to find a way down or up- felt like a kid just running for no particular goal, just to run!

Wasn't my longest, toughest or fastest run, but will go down as one my most exhilarating runs :)

If you can't keep it fresh, it can certainly be hard to keep it going.

One thing I've been having fun with lately is a new altimeter watch (High Gear Axio Max my mom bought me). Don't know if I'll use it all the time, but it's certainly cool to get a real altitude gain figure on a lot of runs I've been guessing on for years.

Over the last week surfing has been taking precedence over running (though I've still been averaging 35-40MPW for the last 3 weeks), but I have some good plans in store for the coming weeks...will start picking it up until Zion starting Monday...Just sort of been taking it easy until now. Planning on doing a linkup of 7 or 8 local peaks that I'm not sure has been done before...Should be cool if I can do it, I'll post up a TR.

Here's a little story about a recent run:
http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/the-race-unspoken/

Have a good one.

Craig- that's good- so much for the easy run :)

Don't know how all of you are doing in preparation for this, but training is spotty for sure on my end right now. I'm trying desperately to get psyched up to go get my miles in but life and other things are slightly conspiring against that right now.

My work schedule changed without notice this school year. I now teach my first class an hour later in the day and get off an hour later as well. Yet due to traffic and commuting issues, I still have to leave very early in order to not sit in the car for an hour and a half...

Work is a few miles from the beach. To make the best of the scenario, I've started surfing again, getting out nearly every day now. In the water before sunrise, cold outdoor shower, still getting to work with time to spare.

If the waves are small, I swim and dive instead. A buddy of mine is a serious ocean man; he's showing me the ropes freediving and spearfishing. I'm now running around obsessively holding my breath and looking at a stopwatch. My wife thinks I've lost it...

I'm absolutely loving it. I'm already thinking about places to backpack where I can pack in a wetsuit, simple freedive kit (my weight belt is going to screw up my baseweight pretty good!), and a spear.

I'm pretty blown away by this whole other dark and silent world out there.

But after a morning session, full day's teaching with 175 teenagers, and commute home, running is the last thing on my mind. I'm still squeezing out around 30 miles per week, but I'm having trouble getting the long runs. All my miles are 5s to 10s spread throughout the week. Not very confidence inspiring "ultra" training....

I'm not wanting to call it on Zion, but my strategy going into this is certainly changing. I'm leaning more towards ditching the running expectations and focusing on getting in one solid 20-40 mile hike/run with tons of gain every weekend until then.
Confident that I'll then be comfortable enough to just go out and hike the 50 miles and take whatever time I can get.



How's everyone else feeling about this thing?

Craig - so will you be carrying your surf board on the hike now ? searching for the perfect wave ?

my base is considerably better than out R2R2R run, but I'm not getting the quality (or length) on my long runs of late

I'm also hitting the 30-ish mile/week pretty regular w/ runs from 6-12 miles, I'm hoping to bump it up a little, but it is getting close

I was hoping to have a couple of runs near 30 miles, but that seems unlikely at this point, hopefully a couple around the 20 mile mark

Before things go too much further, I have to say I'm going to drop out of this one. I really can't foresee turning my training around right now, and honestly, I don't think I'm much in the mood to try. I've been having a lot of fun in the ocean and "serious" running feels too forced at the moment.

I think I need the mountains for relaxation, family, and beauty right now, not as a proving ground.

doesn't seem to be as much interest in this run as our previous run :(, maybe we should shoot for another spring or early summer run??????- Zion would certainly be a good choice, I also want to do Rae Lakes at some point- realizing that would have to come more in summer vs spring

I'd also offer up the Devil's Backbone race in the Gallatin range as a possibility- it's a 50 mile race in some of the most beautiful country Montana has to offer- only one aid station at the 25 mile turnaround, the majority of the route is at 9000'+- almost assuredly some snow crossing

the race is in July and can be run as a 50 mile or a 25 mile "relay" w/ a partner (each starts at the opposite end)

more details here: http://www.math.montana.edu/~thayes/Runs/Devil/DB50Info.html

Edited by mtwarden on 09/14/2012 08:12:47 MDT.

Fractured my heel bone this weekend...So now all lingering doubts about dropping out are gone; likely won't even be running short distances for a few weeks.

Hope you guys can still pull something together.
If not, Spring and cooler training temps until then sound good to me.

ouch- sorry to hear that Craig, here's to a speedy recovery!

Mike

Looks like I stumbled upon this late in the game, but if anyone is interested, I was considering doing a fastpack through Zion in late September or early October. I was actually thinking of going by myself, forgoing the shuttle, and going from Kolob all the way east and back to my car at Kolob.

If anyone would be interested, let me know!

I'm thinking #3 should be across North Cascades National Park from Hannagen Pass to Ross Dam. 3 passes, 50 miles, Zero people. And I'll be done with school so I can actually attend :)

that sounds like a dandy, at the rate we're currently going it could be #2

what time of year is it doable?

Well, it's snow free from mid/late august thru mid october, which is why I figured next year. We hiked through last month, great trail. I've talked to a couple folks who have run it in a day. It has an early bail option at mile 43, but up til then it's a one-way shot. I'd be available to help with logistics whenever it happens, it's in my backyard.

sounds like a good fall option; if Zion falls though this fall- we might be able to pull it off next spring

good deal, I'll stay tuned into this thread in case it happens. Come run in the second-least-visited National Park! :-P

thought I'd report back on my purchase of the Fluid 6. first mine came under spec at 9.5 oz :) second, this thing definitely has a lot of room which belies it's small size, the bungee setup on the front also expands it's capabilities. I was pleasantly surprised to see that it had two decent size stretch pockets on the side- they are big enough to hold the typical 20 oz running bottle, they can't be readily accessed on the move however, maybe it's just my lack of mobility :)

there are several small front pockets on the vest portion, one is zippered and just the right size to stow a couple dozen electrolyte pills

it doesn't come w/ a bladder, but has a sleeve and velcro loop to hang one- been using a 2.0 liter Platy Hoser w/ mine

I've had on two long runs, one 19 the other 20.5, the pack carries very nicely- there is no bouncing or jiggling, should have moved to a vest style pack earlier :)

a couple of small nit pics- would be nice to have a small mesh pocket in the main pack to separate things like TP, FAK, headlamp etc- they easily do this for less than a 1/2 oz; would be nice to have one slightly larger front pocket on the vest portion- something that would hold a camera or the like

the pack definitely would do a long day adventure- including a light insulating layer and a days worth of food, appears to be a keeper!

I have hit my decision point for Zion. I had an outstanding 36 mile trail run on the AT Sunday and while I am not as confident as I was for the R2R2R trip but I am ready to book the trip if it's still on. I would fly to vegas Thursday night and hit Zion early Friday flying back out on Sunday. So what's the verdict?

very good question :) I got an email from Eugene a week or so ago that hinted that he might pull out, it appears Craig is out

several folks that have expressed interest early haven't posted to this thread in quite some time, so doesn't look good at the moment anyways


Mike

I will also pass on the October trip, but am interested at some future time.
this is just the time of year I tend to switch my focus to the rest of my life and try to tackle all those chores I've been ignoring all year long.

John and I may go there next spring, April 19, 2013, for the Zion 100 miler.
they also have a 100k (62 miler).
its not inside the park but just outside. National Parks do not allow official races.
probably not quite as beautiful as the Zion Traverse, but still beautiful.

Zion 100

Sorry to leave this hanging.

I am going to call this one and save it for a future time as well. I've been going back and forth. In a nutshell, inconsistent long running, interspersed with mountain biking over the last few months hasn't fully prepared me for a solid run at Zion. I'm fit, but not Zion Traverse fit, just havent invested the time on the feet I need to have a good run out there. Could I finish? Yea, but I don't want to "just finish". I wish I had an epic reason why I can't do this, you know, I was crushed by an errant boulder on a run, or I was mauled by a cougar and suffered sever lacerations to 90% of my body....but I don't. Time, finances, and family priority is dictating my decision this go round and I need to stick to my guns.

I forget our R2R2R was only 6 months ago, so im ok pushing this back to next spring when all interested members can commit. Sorry if this kills the vibe here.

Let's all keep in touch and keep the ball rolling for a future gathering, hopefully sooner rather than never.

We'll think about spring then.

Although I have to say, after surfing or being in the ocean nearly daily for the past month, I'm beginning to wonder if ultrarunning is for suckers...
:)

... but how many of us have ever won a coffee mug for surfing ?

Spring will work for me. It's a little easier sell to my wife going on one "big run" trip a year (vs two) :)

I'm hoping to have a little longer stay vs the Grand Canyon, I really want to sit around a fire and gab with you guys- had a great time at the GC, but it was a little rushed on my end- not so next spring!

Mike

Spring works better for me as well. My recovery post-Hardrock was very slow, and as a result I did not really run for 2 months. I'm getting back in shape, and should be in fine shape come spring after 2 ultras planned in February.

If anyone else was game for traveling from Colorado, carpooling would be groovy...

Eric-nice to hear from you :) I didn't know you did Hardrock- big congrats on that!

I'm hoping we can pull this off in the spring, really looking forward to seeing everyone (and maybe some new folks to boot!)

Mike

i was hoping this would still happen. i have been absolutely slammed with school and work so i am not sure i could even take the time to go, but like everyone else i always train better with a goal.

keep setting the bar high guys, this trip will be so awesome when it happens.