UPDATED: Here are the images I posted buried on Page 5.

First Set-Up

Second Set-Up & First Hike With

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Hey all —

Intro Summary: Long-time lurker, obsessed gear-hunter, avid adventurer. Exhausted dozens of options, settled on this tent. Wanted to document the awesome customer service I've experienced so far, and shed some insight on why I chose it.

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* Note: This is an older model where the poles go through sleeves. AFAIK, the newer ones are all clips or velcro.

Here is some information on the tent, images, and a huge list of the options that are available at purchase:

- http://bigskyproducts.com/Big-Sky-Evolution-2P-shelter.aspx

- http://www.BigSkyInternational.com/SummitShelters/Big_Sky_Evolution_2P_details.htm

- http://www.BigSkyInternational.com/SummitShelters/Big_Sky_Evolution_2P_2D2V_pictures.htm

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First off, I want to stress that I am not affiliated with this company in anyway. In fact, if you look at my post history you can see the thread in which I first heard about this company, only a few days ago.

Only over the last year have I transitioned to an UL mentality. It has been great, as I haven't sacrificed any of my favorite parts of hiking and camping in order to carry less. However, the one thing that has really been holding me back has been my shelter. I've been using an REI Half Dome 2 Plus. The problem with this tent, besides the weight, is that it's so well designed that it stinks to leave behind, and then you end up carrying the 5 or 6 pounds of it.

Some key features that were important to me:

- Dual Doors (Big Agnes tends to not use this design in their UL tents. It's important to me because when I'm not with my girlfriend, I'm with a buddy, and while I'm more patient being woken up by my girlfriend, over a long trip no dude wants to constantly be jostling his hiking parter with getting in and out of the tent, or feeling like you have to wait to take a leak.)

- Vestibules (Not a requirement, but nice to have, if not just to keep stuff out of the sleeping area.)

- Dual Walls (I camp in the East primarily, and condensation is almost a guarantee. However, on shorter trips where rain is unlikely, it is really, really nice to just sleep in a bug net. Around here mosquitos can be hellish.)

- Freestanding (I know, this leads to lazy camp-site choice, and often you need to stake or guy it out anyway. But it is a nice OPTION to have, especially as a photographer, who likes to stake out scenic spots that may not be the ideal 'stealth campsite'.)

- Trekking Poles NOT Required (This tends to be a weight saving feature on a lot of shelters, and it is a good one. But frankly, I tend to use one pole, instead of two, if any. Going lighter has made me lighter on my feet, and I like to keep my hands free for photography.)

- Pole Clips: I hate feeding a pole through a sleeve. Clipping the interior to the poles takes all of 15 seconds and is plenty secure.

- Pockets (Again, maybe silly, but you have to admit they are nice to have. I like to keep my watch near my head in a secure spot, have a headlamp etc. handy.)

- WEIGHT (The REI tent is heavy, let's face it. The rest of my "big 3" is around the 1lb. mark, but my tent was negating all those savings. Since I am PRIMARILY hiking with a partner, splitting up weight is generally an option, but because I am not made of money, I wanted to avoid having to have a seperate solo shelter if I could put up with a few extra ounces.)

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That's when I found the Evolution 2P. At first, I was confused, because their site was full of well-designed tents, with well-conceived options, and variations that made sense for all sorts of different purposes. Their prices were on par with most UL shelters. But very few opinions to be found online? They seem endorsed by BPL, but from years ago, and the community rarely mentions it now.

But the Evolution had literally everything I wanted. It even LOOKED a lot like my previous tent, but at over half the weight!

So I decided to contact Big Sky International and see what was up. Within about an hour, I was surprised to find an email from the man himself, Bob Molen, who it is my understanding owns the company, and is responsible for much of the design.

I have a JMT hike coming up, fast, and I did NOT want to lug my old tent around. I made mention of this to Bob, because others had expressed that Big Sky had unbelievably long wait times, even for a cottage company. I wanted to see what I would be looking at for this awesome tent.

Long story short, Bob had an order cancellation, and had a tent ready to go... now. It was exactly what I wanted, except it had a UL rain fly option, which saved 3 ounces from the total weight. It was slightly more money, but hey, I'm sure I will grow to appreciate having that option over the years. We shot emails back and forth, going over all the options, the restock times for other configurations, the shipping time for mine, whether I would get it in time, or not. Mind you, all of this was happening rather late at night, because that's what gear junkies do, right? I even joked with the guy for shooting emails to me at 2AM.

So within 24 hours, I went from lusting over this item, to it being on it's way. I felt insanely privileged, since others spoke of such long wait times. Which I would like to take the time to address now, by quoting Bob himself:

"In the past we have contracted the manufacturing of Big Sky’s tents to a large tent making factory. Unfortunately, we could not get timely deliveries… we tried for years to make this work, but this year we gave up and started our own Design Studio… the tent you will receive came from Big Sky’s Design Studio…. we are still ramping up production, so it will probably be 2013 before we get to where we want to be with timely shipments."

Big Sky will not charge your card until your item ships. You will not be out any money by placing an order. I saw a few dissatisfied customers complaining about Big Sky a few years ago, saying they never received their tents. I also noticed in that thread that Bob Molen went and made an account just to rectify those customer issues, apologetically and with accommodation.

The fact is, it is a small business, making niche products, with niche materials, and a specific manufacturing process that requires care and industry know-how. The fact he has been doing this for over 7 years now, despite many hang-ups along the way, constantly revising the product, really shows that he cares about what he is selling. I just wanted to clear the air about this company because I feel they deserve to be considered along with Tarp Tent, Zpacks, MLD, SMD, etc. The designs speak for themselves. The customer service is personal and fast. I hope their production gets on point where they can start to meet the demand they deserve.

In my conversation with Bob, I mentioned my Half Dome 2, and he said he was also a fan and long-time user of that tent. Go figure.

"I am VERY familiar with REI’s Half Dome. I used one for years, and like you, I really like it. When I designed the Evolution 2P my design goal was to design a tent as comfortable as the Half Dome, but half the weight.

It is easier to make a lighter weight tent that is smaller, or only has one door on the end of the tent, but then a person has to give up some comfort… especially when sleeping with another person…. two doors and vestibules are more comfortable, and a side door is easier to get in/out of… but bigger and heavier… the backpackers I have seen that want light weight equipment are the same size as others so why make a smaller tent for light weight backpackers…

One of the things we say at Big Sky is our goal is to “put the comfort in, and take the weight out."

That's exactly what I was looking for in a tent. Something that could appease a casual weekend warrior I take along with me, as well as something I could use on a thru-hike without feeling like I have to play by my tent's rules.

I apologize for the length, but I hope this may give some insight for others who may be looking for something similar. I wanted to use this thread as a journal of my experience with this transaction, in hopes it may instill some confidence in their products. I intend to do a thorough review when the tent arrives, and follow-up with any questions and what not.

Edited by Scalawag on 05/24/2012 20:48:08 MDT.

Seems cool, but too short for me at 6'4. Pity they don't do a 3P/XL dome of similar design.

Edited by Joomy on 05/09/2012 23:53:38 MDT.

Chris,

Congratulations. I am glad it worked out. I am standing by for my Revolution. I am glad the referral was successful.

Derrick

Well, I am glad you are getting the tent of your dreams. Based on the horrid customer service by just about everyone else, your situation is a lucky one for sure but I don't think I would praise BS's CS just yet. Should you have an issue with the tent after using it, please report back on how Bob handles the situation.

Speaking of using the tent, let us know what you thing once you actually receive it and set it up, use it on a couple of trips, and fully 'run down' its abilities.

I plan to, I wanted to get a thread going here to fully document any issues / praise I may have in the future. I hope it gives Big Sky a chance to redeem themselves if all goes well.

man, how many chances are people willing to give that guy?

I decided to see for myself and judge on my own experience.

Care to elaborate on what all the resentment is about?

Rather than reconstruct here details from the past, here's a thread from 2007 with a few positive comments (and one negative comment) about the Big Sky Evolution -- my experience with Big Sky and its service is one of the positive comments.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_reviews.html?forum_thread_id=9037&startat=20

There were a good many other threads way back then, too. Just search "Big Sky" in BPL's search engine. Here's one of those earlier threads that generated a lot of comments about Backpacker Magazine's positive review of Big Sky tents, together with "personal accounts" about Big Sky's service --

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=7270

And here's another thread -- started in 2006 -- that must rank in the "top ten" based on the number of comments posted --

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=4250

After 5 years of use, my Evolution 2P is doing fine and I'm very pleased with it. Also very satisfied with the service provided by Mr. Mohen.

That's one person's opinion (counting my wife, make that the opinion of two).

;>)

Edited by JRScruggs on 05/10/2012 13:08:58 MDT.

Bob's customer service must have improved beyond the moon. After paying for mine, I waited 374 days for delivery. I love the tent and use it as my go-to two-man tent. It's light enough to carry for a solo trip, if I'm expecting rain. I even got a porch fly for when I'm base-camping or car camping. Glad to see Big Sky has gotten things under control.

Bill seemed to address the manufacturing issues that caused such massive delays. I don't think he ever tried to hide that?

Though I couldn't imagine, or would want to, wait a year for a product, I would really just write it off as that companies loss of my business if that were the case. The fact is, some people run a business better than others, some have better partners and affiliates, some have a larger staff and more resources... A lot get off to a rocky start, some so bad they fail.

The difference here is I don't think Mr. Mohen ever tried to screw anyone over, intentionally or otherwise. Perhaps the last few years were just the result of a series of unfortunate decisions.

But I'm a mellow guy - I trust the dude. If things go wrong, I just won't get a tent, which in the long run is NOT a big deal. But if he's really committed to turning things around for his customers, then I'd be happy to own one.

I waited 2 years 3 months from the time he cashed my check. He kept claiming production problems, which may very well been the case, but the issue was always that he was "unreachable" when he didn't have good news to tell you. The number of people that simply got ignored by email was large. That says more about attitude than availability of tents.

I guess things are better on his end, so he doesn't have to duck people anymore, but he sure did in the past.

"The difference here is I don't think Mr. Molen ever tried to screw anyone over, intentionally or otherwise."

Um, you'll probably want to learn more about the long history of Mr. Molen screwing people over. I mean, if I take check for a product, cash that check, make endless excuses and/or go completely incommunicado for 1-2 years, and perhaps either finally deliver the product or be forced to return the money via credit card/Paypal complaint.... I'd call that an intentional screw-over.

Whether he occasionally (perhaps more so recently?) delivers a product ontime is separate from the repeated fraud he has perpetrated in the past (if not still ongoing). I'm glad you had a positive transaction, but he has much to answer for.

My cash will always go to Tarptent, MLD, etc. who are honest, upfront, communicative, and always willing to do help.

I too am giving Bob a chance, in fact it was my post that led Chris to Big Sky and Bob. I don't think Bob ever kept money for a tent he did not deliver. Yes there were endless delays, but as far as I know when tents were not delivered the funds were returned. If he had not returned the funds it would be theft and fraud. Having returned, them it is merely bad business conduct. The reason I understand is he is orders at the factory were continually being bumped for orders from larger vendors without notice to him. His policy is now to not debit your credit card until the order is shipped.

Notwithstanding these past issues, he manufactures some of the best tents available on he market and form all accounts the quality for the price is second to none. I hope to see the discussion around Big Sky tents evolve away from dwelling on the past and actually focus on the tents themselves. There is plenty of naysaying already here for those newbies considering a purchase. There is however very little discussion of the tents themselves.

Derrick

I'm glad you're a mellow guy, Chris, but I just can't agree with "if things go wrong, I just won't get a tent which is the long run is NOT a big deal. I am speaking generally because I have never done business with Big Sky, but when you take money for something and don't deliver it, that's fraud -- and I work too hard for my money to say that's "NOT a big deal."

If this guy was cashing checks and not delivering product for a year, that's not good. If he is now not charging until the product ships, that's better.

Well I'll reserve my personal judgment for what I alone have experienced, which has been nothing but positive. It took me far longer to get in touch with people from Gossamer Gear than BSI, for whatever that's worth.

My tent will be shipping tomorrow and I got confirmation that my card will be charged tomorrow. I think that's fair.

I've been apart of many communities where an independent niche-product manufacturer gets into trouble with the community for poor communication / manufacturing issues... It happens. I understand it takes time to earn trust back, but I also think forgiveness is a strong value to be able to uphold.

Hi,

Sorry for off-topic, is it a double wall tent? Could not understand from pics/specs.
What configuration have you ordered?

Thanks, Greg.

It is a double wall. The Evolution is Double, and the Revolution is a hybrid double, with the fly attached (as far as I know?)... They also have single options.

My configuration was basically stock, except I got an UltraLight rain fly option.

And for the record, I now have a tracking number and my tent is on it's way... so no worries about "stolen money" or anything like that.

"Well I'll reserve my personal judgment for what I alone have experienced"

So you will disregard and ignore the numerous people who got screwed, but want to "document" your experience so others can see big sky is a-ok?

I like how you post that:
"I plan to, I wanted to get a thread going here to fully document any issues / praise I may have in the future. I hope it gives Big Sky a chance to redeem themselves if all goes well."

Then later act surprised:
"I decided to see for myself and judge on my own experience.

Care to elaborate on what all the resentment is about?"



Your entire post reads like an advertisement for Big Sky. You touch lightly on the issues of delays, CC charges years before shipping, and lack of communication...pretending they were minor historical aberrations that are no longer of any concern.

Call me a skeptic but I seriously doubt you are just some avid fan of Big Sky sharing his joy and experiences.

"Call me a skeptic but I seriously doubt you are just some avid fan of Big Sky sharing his joy and experiences."


It could be a happy accident, but the whole first post reads like some stealthy non-advertisement advertisement.

I haven't posted here in awhile but this one caught my eye.
It looks as though his tent hasn't 'shipped' yet and I really hope for his sake that it does.
I have a BS Revolution 1 that is my preferred solo tent most times but I bought it second hand to avoid the hassle of dealing with Big Sky directly.

Exactly what I thought. Neat tents. Just can't ever get one delivered. Too bad. Not sure why anyone would ever trust BSI to deliver. Pardon the pun.

I purchased one a little over a year ago and received it within 2 weeks. Great tent for 2+ 2 dogs. . Just buy something that's in stock to avoid any drama.

Not sure who Chris Scala is honestly, but I can tell you that I am no advertisement for Big Sky. I have decided to take the risk with them And I am trying to engender a debate about their tents and not the political crap BPL is full of about Big Sky.

I am seeking a discussion of their tents and started a thread to which Chris Scala responded and said he had never heard if them and would check them out. He did and has a tent on the way, as he says. I still wait for mine, but BSI promised delivery date is weeks away. BSI has promised a loaner until my tent is manufactured. We will see how it goes.

The negative speculation toward BSI current business is extreme and twisted. The past has to give way to the present at some point. Give it a chance for Pete's sake all you nayasyers.

Derrick

I wasn't going to say anything, but Michael and Dave must've read my mind.

It just seemed awkward that both of you recently joined or started posting, and both ordered a BSI tent within a week of each other and started talking about.

Guys, chill out. I do not work for this company, at all. I shouldn't even do this but I will lay it all out:

- I post on the r/ultralight board on reddit. Username: ANTI-PUGSLY. Go through 3 years worth of posts on that site and find a single thing that indicates I work for a camping gear company.

- I'm a photographer and designer. Here is my website: http://www.wagscala.com

- I live outside of NY. AFAIK, this company is based out of Wyoming?

- If you read my post history you can see I'm a 20-something dude hiking the JMT this summer. Just taking up an interest in UL and trying to contribute to the community the best I can. Forgive me for being thorough.

I seriously don't know some of you guys can spend so much time in the woods and still be so quick to get riled up. It's really a very negative energy.

Chris, when you get your tent, would you be up for sharing some important details? Doing it with good macro pictures would be awesome.

We already know Bob is a good tent designer, we don't know if his new tent factory is any good. I'd love to see how tautly it pitches so we can see if the cut is correct. Macro shots of the seams, corners and attachment points would show how the fabric is cut, if the seams are straight, how seams are ended and reinforced, and how attachment points are reinforced....I think interior shots of those would be best.

As to your last comment, this site has a history of dog piling onto cottage companies. I don't like it either.

Absolutely Eugene, that was my intent anyway. I just found it hard to come up with any information on these so I figured I could contribute my documenting it myself.

Still a little overwhelmed by the paranoia in here... :\

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I did just scan the thread twice looking - how much does this tent (Rev 2P) weigh?

- Dave

You BSI guys may be perfectly legit. But you can drop the paranoia - negative energy line of attacks.

Chris you showed perfect knowledge of BSI's previous BS yet pretended otherwise. So I have no problem calling you on it.

And I do not think it is the least bit unusual for some of us to hold to our principles. I don't care if Morlen is on time now. Somebody who has revealed low moral character in the past without apology doesn't deserve a second chance. I don't care what he's up to these days. It isn't just BSI. If somebody treats me or my aquantices poorly, I don't feel the need to later give them my money.

But welcome to BPL and I hope you will contribute a trip report with pictures from your JMT hike. It is great to have good quality images in a TR.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bsi_evolution_2p_tent_review

Why does yours have pole sleeves? You say it is an older model but you just bought it, right?

I really liked it but am on a waiting list for a Revolution 2P which will work better in all the rain I see now that I am full time in Minnesota.

By the way, somebody said the Revolution is a hybrid double-wall tent. That is not so. It is a double-wall tent, it just supports the inner from the fly with the poles on the outside, whereas the Evo has the poles between the two. (Poles support the inner and fly drapes over that.)

Edited by rayestrella on 05/12/2012 15:01:04 MDT.

The BSI threads always suck me in because of the questions they raise:

If you think you have a shot at getting the ideal tent, should it matter to you that many other folks who ordered them got bilked?

And, if the merchant has a history of dishonesty can you trust the quality of the merchandise, or believe the claims made about it? You can bet a decent product would be sent to a BP or BPL reviewer, but what about to ordinary folk, if sent at all.

I used to work for judges, who would regularly remind me that, 'tigers don't change their stripes," and "false in one, false in all." (loose translation from the Latin)
I'm not quite that callused; but definitely do not like the idea of supporting someone just because it will get me what I want, no matter the effect on others.
I suppose it's a matter of your own personal moral outlook. But they all add up to determine what kind of world we live (and die) in. I often read novels about life in Russia, and how people have coped in desperate straits.

A related note: The Limmer family of custom boot makers in NH have operated a business where there is a wait for several years. But you know up front approximately how long it will be, and when your time comes, they deliver.
Custom gear can be made and sold in an honest and upright fashion.

I have to digest all this with a bit of humor, and state for the record that I am in no way affiliated with BSI. I am a lawyer in the frontier of northeastern Canada (Labrador)who is prepared to give a guy (a company) a chance. As for those of you who now wrongly accuse of me of being involved with BSI because I speak positively of a company which you don't like, whatever your intent, regardless of how worthy, you have lost the moral high ground because what you are saying if false.

I just want to talk tents.

Derrick White
Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada
709-722-0637

Don't know if anybody is even talking to you or about you (ive never addressed you) Derrick but feel free to keep your high ground.

You guys will be happy to know I'll have detailed images for you on Thursday, when the tent arrives. It's on it's way across the country via UPS.

Regardless of what previous experiences were had (which I never pretended to deny... I think someone is reading far too much into my words), I had an exceedingly positive one. I can't think of any other seller I've been in touch with as much as this guy... My inbox literally has about 25 emails back and forth.

Derrick - did you just post your phone number on the web?

@Chris - looking forward to the pics!

Two brand new users posting nothing but gushing endorsements of Big Sky's "customer service" even though neither of them have even received a tent yet. Hmmm...

It has been a long time since Bob Molen posted here himself with repeated promises: just six to ten more weeks and we'll have a handle on these temporary delivery / production problems. Then a flurry of angry posts as people who had ordered and paid started to realize that no tent would ever arrive.

Now five more years have gone by and even though the Big Sky web site has been up and they supposedly have been selling tents for all these years there are basically no reviews, no trip reports, and in fact almost no sightings at all of Big Sky tents.

And you two think we're being suspicious for no good reason?

Well put, Kristin

Time will tell

I won't consider a BS tent until they are under new ownership, and, stocked at a third party retailer where they can be bought off the shelf.

This whole 'give a guy a chance' crap pretends all the people yanked around *for years* were doing something other than giving the guy a chance.

I never said you didn't have a right to be wary of the company, but you are being completely overly paranoid accusing two innocent posters of whether they are EMPLOYED BY THE COMPANY. Are you realizing how insane that is? You think that this guy has the resources to hire two random people to infiltrate a message board?

That is absurd. I posted ALL of my personal information on this site, for you skeptics to verify. The reception here is leaving such a terrible taste in my mouth I can barely take half of you seriously anymore. If you were so concerned, why not just warn us that WE might get screwed?

- I've lurked on BPL for over a year now. I have read Ray Jardine's books, Mike Clelland's book, topics from all over the web, and finally feel I have something to contribute.

- I'm in the market for a new tent, so I read everything on shelters on here. Find a recommendation for BSI.

- Do about a week's research, determine it's worth a shot. Contact Bob, post EVERYTHING on here for you all to see, since my experience seemed different.

- Now I'm getting accused of being apart of some ludicrous marketing scheme.

So much for welcoming, peace-loving, mellow backpacker types. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Here guys, want my address too? Let's all follow my tent across the US with my UPS tracking number OK?

Here: 1Z9X963X1292607391

Want my phone number as well? It's on my website. Feel free to call me up 24/7.

Edited by Scalawag on 05/14/2012 14:14:03 MDT.

I for one am looking forward to more info on the Big Sky tents you two have ordered. I really like BSI's design approach, although their prices do give me pause. If the tents rock, they may be worth the money. Time will tell, and in that vein I hope to soon see your opinions on the tents themselves - as opposed to more opinions/past experiences related to BSI's poor business practices. I already know PLENTY about that...

Dave, that's all I wanted to do from the beginning... I found there was alarmingly little information on these tents and as a photographer and enthusiast thought I could change that. If I get screwed over, then boy is my face red – but if not, then I'd like to at least document what I got.

For what it is worth, I too purchased an Evolution 2P last year (despite having read all the craziness re BSI on the BPL forum). Received my tent inside of two weeks and used it through the summer and fall. Great customer service. Tent is bombproof and 4 pounds lighter than what I was using. I don't work in the business nor am I a shill. Just a longtime lurker on this board.

There are plenty of people and companies that get paid nominal fees to post positive reviews on websites. It is a booming business. Small companies do it and so do large. Tripadvisor recently pulled one companies positive reviews after discovering just such a scheme.

People would have just warned you Chris if you hadn't posted such a beautiful advertising piece nominally titled a review with pictures (stolen from the web?) before you ever even had the tent. You posted in your ad piece that you wanted people to give this company a chance along with other cottage guys....before you even knew if you would get screwed like others. Your whole posting history is fishy.

Odd that you are a long term lurker. Happen to find a review on BSI and get one? Really? With all the negative stuff, THAT is the company you just happen to make your intro with?

And I don't see much on your site.

Edited by mpl_35 on 05/14/2012 15:52:13 MDT.

Todd, did you get aluminum or carbon poles?

I want to ask you about the quality, but it seems you got your tent from the old factory.

"Exhausted dozens of options, settled on this tent... awesome customer service...
I want to stress that I am not affiliated with this company in anyway...
their site was full of well-designed tents, with well-conceived options, and variations that made sense for all sorts of different purposes... Within about an hour, I was surprised to find an email from the man himself, Bob Molen, who it is my understanding owns the company, and is responsible for much of the design....this awesome tent.... so within 24 hours, I went from lusting over this item, to it being on it's way... I felt insanely privileged, since others spoke of such long wait times... Big Sky will not charge your card until your item ships... You will not be out any money by placing an order... I noticed that Bob Molen went and made an account just to rectify those customer issues, apologetically and with accommodation... it is a small business, making niche products, with niche materials, and a specific manufacturing process that requires care and industry know-how. The fact he has been doing this for over 7 years now, despite many hang-ups along the way, constantly revising the product, really shows that he cares about what he is selling... the customer service is personal and fast... exactly what I was looking for in a tent... something that could appease a casual weekend warrior I take along with me, as well as something I could use on a thru-hike without feeling like I have to play by my tent's rules... I wanted to use this thread as a journal of my experience with this transaction in hopes it may instill some confidence in their products..."


This is all prior to receiving the item, and with apparenty knowledge of years of failed promises and financial malfeasance on the part of BS. I'm sure this could just be a rosy posting about an undelivered tent, but even if that's all it is, you need to understand the long and extremely poor history of BS, and not just dismiss it as "something in the past... shoot, give the guy a chance!"

Eugene, I went with aluminum poles. I now wish I would have paid the extra upon ordering and I've been considering upgrading to the carbon just to shave a few ounces. Quality is top-notch in my (old factory) product, so I can't speak for the new manufacturing facility. I've used a tyvek footprint (5.4 oz) and had zero issues with wear and tear on the floor. Suffered through eight straight nights of rain in Yosemite last fall without a leak or any visible condensation.

Michael, I am about ready to tell you go to F yourself. You are crazy. I don't know what more you want from me.

I wish I was getting paid for the amount of crap I am dealing with from you guys.

What the heck do you mean you DON'T SEE MUCH ON MY SITE? It is my portfolio of my BUSINESS. My business that contains NOTHING TO DO WITH "SHILL ACCOUNTS ON MESSAGEBOARDS". In fact, I've been on communities since I was 13 years old, eagerly and honestly pouring my heart out across the web, and no one has ever called me a shill. I'm literally shaking as I'm writing this because you have made me so mad.

Do you want my LinkedIn? My Facebook? Instagram? eBay account? 2+ years of reddit post history? NJ/NY Trail Comission Membership Card? Checking account information?

Edited by Scalawag on 05/14/2012 16:34:20 MDT.

Dave – I'm sorry my post was too "rosy" for you. I didn't find myself embittered by reading posts of past issues with the company. In fact I was riding out the happiness of finding a good product, getting in touch with what I felt was a friendly man, and excited to receive something I could take with me on a long awaited trip.

I'm sorry my happiness with my transaction spilled over into my post. I am a good writer. I'm sorry that comes off as an advertisement. I was detailing why the tent was right for me. I've read thousands of posts on here of people lauding Tarp Tent, MLD, SMD, etc... In fact some strike me entirely like advertisements, so much so that I spent months researching these brands without any prior knowledge of them.

I guess you're right, I wasn't angry enough. I shouldn't have been so excited to get this tent.

Your guys tactics have worked, though... I was excited, now I fear the worst, now I'm distraught by the harassment I've been getting, now all the fun is completely sucked out of waiting for it. I couldn't care less about this effing tent now. I'm completely bitter about the entire thing, just like the rest of you now. Happy?

As promised, on Thursday I will post pictures of the tent. Afterwards, do not expect to hear from me again.

You have made this an entirely unwelcome place to be... I will stick to Whiteblaze and Reddit where members are not so, well, insane.

Chris, you can post the pics on Whiteblaze instead if you wish. I'm on there too.

Cool - sounds good to me. :-)

Too bad. I was interested in the pics also.

There are some serious trolls here, but there are also some gems. You just got pulled under the bridge right off of the bat, instead of meeting the good ones.

Good luck at Whiteblaze, sorry to see you go.

Chris/Eugene: here are a couple of photos of the Evo 2P

Thanks a lot for those pics, really reaffirms my decision in buying one! Looks like exactly what I wanted.

Hi Chris

Seems you had a rough introduction here, but that is likely to be because quite a few people here had been very badly burnt by BSI and Bob Molen some years ago. But we have many more readers who may be interested in your photos.

Bob's troubles (some years ago) seem to have been caused by a sad combination of factors: big problems with unreliable Chinese suppliers in the first place, compounded by a huge disaster in China which further seriously delayed deliveries, plus a very bad misjudgement on his part over charging credit cards before he could deliver. He got himself into a deep hole, and is now trying to climb back out - witness his current very virtuous card charging policy. Can Bob Molen restore his tarnished image? It would be nice to think so, as the tents look good.

I note that the UPS tracking page does record that parcel as having been accepted at the office. Roll on Thursday.

Cheers

Chris,

For what it's worth -- how long do you think this negative back and forth would have gone on if you hadn't felt the need to keep answering! There is no back and forth without involvement by both sides. It's why some of these threads get so nasty and just never end, one side just has to get the last word in - and so does the other side. Sheesh.

So let it go. Really. You'll be happier. Talk about the tent when you get it. Share pictures. Share your impressions. Share the actual weights. There are plenty of folks who would/could be interested. Just stay away from the silly arguments and they can't propagate. FWIW.

Edited to add: While I personally think the accusations of being a shill and such were unnecessary, you should take a second to try to see where all that was coming from - it wasn't totally out of left field. You spent far too many posts defending Mr. Molen when you've had fewer dealings with him than many on this site who were not treated very well. For all the bad blood from times past, you might have expected your cheerleading/defending would generate such a backlash. There really are two sides to most things.

So, again, stick to the tent and your personal experiences with it and Mr. Molen, and simply leave the rest of it alone. I'm not the only one who's interested in how this pans out for you, just stick to the Joe Friday piece. ;-)

Edited by idester on 05/14/2012 18:07:56 MDT.

Thanks guys – sorry, I just got a little frustrated. Long day, came home to check this thread, got the best of me.

Thanks for reminding me to chill out.

"Thanks for reminding me to chill out."

And stay excited! Nothing like getting new toys! Woohoo!

"Thanks guys – sorry, I just got a little frustrated. Long day, came home to check this thread, got the best of me."

A few fools went after you because they can't go after Bob, and you were a convenient scapegoat because you said something positive about Bob.

The interesting thing is that though there aren't a lot of them, everyone who's ever acquired a Big Sky tent has had a lot of positive things to say about it. It's funny how the people attacking you completely ignored that part in their mindless zeal to put the blame on you for something that Bob did.

But anyway... I'm hoping yours works out and lives up to expectations. Bob has a LOT of digging to do to get out of the hole his reputation is in, and starting with a great product is about the only way to start. Whether or not he can redeem himself, who knows.

There aren't very many American tent manufacturers who are making extreme conditions tents, and BSI is one of them. AFAIK there are really only three; the others are Nemo and MSR. Of them BSI is the only one who seems to be in the same ballpark as Roger Caffin's as far as weight and features. Whether or not the build quality is up to par I don't know, since I haven't seen any reviews of the Montana anywhere.

(I know Warmlite is American... but I read Roger's review. After that, I can't take them seriously as a tent maker.)

Yours might be the first honest review we'll get to see of one of BSI's tents in a long time, since it's been so long since you could get one.

Besides, if it turns out to be a great tent, you'll get to enjoy it, and then you can... enjoy it more. :)

Sigh. I need to do some backpacking. I'm getting wilderness withdrawal. Cubicle jobs suck.

Chris you can set up your pm.

Set up my PM? Private Message? Premium Membership...?

Private message. You'd need to add an email account to your BPL account. PM's here work only by email.

What leaftye said. I would have simply pm'ed you long ago instead of posting but it wasn't set up.


Hmmm again. As a long time lurker I'd have thought the term pm would be obvious.

Rakesh
not sure how you interpret "extreme conditions" but I would think that American brands like Black Diamond/Bibler,Marmot,Sierra Design, TNF and Mountain Hardwear make tents that maybe are almost as good as the ones you talk about...
And another thing, experts sometimes can be wrong and occasionally spectacularly so..
Franco
The expert I had in mind had to do with the Warmlite tent comment.
Odd that they have been around for 40 years waiting for Roger to figure out that they don't work...

BTW, neither Nemo nor MSR are made in the USA , just like the ones I listed ...

Edited by Franco on 05/14/2012 22:40:32 MDT.

I guess I wasn't clear... So to clarify.
I didn't intend to claim to be an expert.
Also, not many of those, in fact as far as I know none, make anything that's both made for extreme conditions and truly lightweight.

Also, out of curiosity, how many of those are made in the us? I don't think that even MSR tents are us-made, though you're right to point out that they're American designed.

I don't know of any of them making extreme conditions tents that are anywhere near as light as BSI's, though there might be some in the works. Still, the nearest I know of to a Caffin is the BSI Montana that I have yet to locate any reviews of.

Hi Franco

> Odd that they have been around for 40 years waiting for Roger to figure out that they don't work...
I am not sure I ever said that though.

I did say that I thought the construction was poorly done. Others have agreed with me. I think I did say that I thought the taper made the back end almost unusable for a second person to sit in. You try sitting up the backend and see.

Cheers

The expert I had in mind had to do with the Warmlite tent comment.
Odd that they have been around for 40 years waiting for Roger to figure out that they don't work...

Er, Franco, did you actually read Roger's assessment of the Warmlite? He did mention that the recent design of the Warmlite wasn't up to snuff, and he acknowledged that earlier versions were probably better made. If you take a look at the photos of the tent construction of the model he tested, you will immediately see just how bad the sewing is, and how haphazardly thrown together it is. It's obvious that it doesn't take an expert to see what is wrong.

It WAS obvious, which is why I said, "Private Message?" – Are you just trying to bait me at this point?

Either way, it is set-up. I guess I'm inviting more harassment now, but I don't care anymore.

Edited by Scalawag on 05/15/2012 07:06:30 MDT.

Are you going to post pictures here or over at Whiteblaze or what?
I'd like to see them.

As promised, I'll post them here. Won't be until Thursday night though.

So unless Bob shipped be a cardboard box filled with rocks, UPS is reporting my tent has been delivered. I'm at work so I'm going only on the tracking information.

Could it be a bomb? Or maybe empty? Or maybe I actually lucked out here and had an amazingly pleasant transaction?

Stay tuned, will post pics ASAP when I get home.

Standing by.

Here's an album of pics!

You'll notice in my captions I was having some issues with the fly seeming to constrict the tent. Not sure if I'm missing some important part of it's "installation", but it seemed to squeeze the poles closer together, narrowing each end of the tent to the point where there's a big poof of slack fabric. All taught in it's "net" body format, it's perfect... So I'm not sure if the fly is too small! Maybe sent a 1P fly? I emailed Bob about this, awaiting his response...

Edited by Scalawag on 05/17/2012 21:05:45 MDT.

Are there velcro loops on the underside of the fly? Those would hold the poles in place. I thought I saw one in the pics, but wasn't sure.

Thank you for the pictures. I'd like to find out what happens with the fit of the fly.

There are! But I'm not entirely sure how to use them properly, since my vague attempt to do so didn't seem to do much.

Any advice here?

Like this:

[img src=http://www.recumbum.com/img/PinnaclePass2XTA_FlyVelcro.jpg]

The velcro loops will hold the poles inline with the seam. Attach those before tensioning the fly. Look at your pictures again, I think you have the correct fly.

Edited by leaftye on 05/17/2012 21:52:09 MDT.

Thanks for the reference Eugene. Will have to pitch again tomorrow. I did this immediately after work today, and got a very enticing phone call to meet some friends at an outdoor bar that serves pulled pork and beers around a fire pit next to a creek. So I confess, I was in a slight rush and running low on patience from the work day.

I hope that is the case, because I REALLY like this tent besides that fact.

Tried to access the photos at the link you provided to see how the velcro might be designed to attach the fly to the poles and/or inner tent, but could only get an "under heavy load" message. Must be a lot of folks looking at your tent.

From what you said in your first post for this thread, I gather that your tent poles do not go through sleeves on the inner tent as shown in photos of an earlier version of the Evolution that you included with that first posting, but instead the poles for your tent apparently attach some other way to the inner tent (clip, maybe).

As you can see in those photos of the earlier Evolution in your first post, a black strip of velcro is sewn onto the sleeves about half way down from the peak to each of the four corners. The underside of the fly for that version of the Evolution has pairs of velcro strips about three or four inches long that mate with the velcro that's sewn into the sleeves, which secures the fly to the poles and to the inner tent itself via the sleeves. I know this because that's the version I have.

Don't know that my experience with a sleeved version would aid you in figuring out how to use the velcro on the fly to secure the fly to your Evolution's poles and/or inner tent, but here's a problem I ran into -- and how it was resolved --

I took the following photos of my Evolution (2007 version) when I first pitched it upon delivery back in 2007 to show that the velcro strips on the underside of the fly DID NOT align with the velcro sewn onto the pole sleeves halfway from the peak to each of the four corners --






Since the four sets of velcro strips on the underside of the fly did not align at any of the four attachment points on the pole sleeves, the fly could not be secured to the inner tent and poles at all without greatly distorting the fly, poles, and innertent -- which I didn't attempt since I didn't want to damage something.

The problem was fixed by Big Sky having the tent and fly returned for correction of the misaligned velcro as I described in a posting at the following thread --

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_reviews.html?forum_thread_id=9037&startat=20

Moral: If you can't figure out how the velco on the fly should be used to attach the fly to the poles or inner tent, maybe it actually needs "fixing" by Big Sky. Or maybe not. Best idea is send Big Sky an email asking for guidance.

Hope that helps.

Oh, and the tent has performed great! Here it is in the Winds last year:



and on the Teton Crest Trail two years earlier:



Not a "paid" promo, and -- just like the fish in the photo below --- not a fish story either!!! (excuse the drift, just couldn't resist ;>) --

It very well may be a great tent, but it seems that some proper set up instructions need to be included.

"It very well may be a great tent, but it seems that some proper set up instructions need to be included."

Mine came with instructions and other things like staking suggestions and priorities. I'll have to see if I've still got them lying around.

Edit: it also had color coded pieces to aid in assembly. Was very nicely done.

Edited by 7sport on 05/18/2012 04:59:03 MDT.

It DID come with instructions... and set-up tips, as well as a patch of fabric for you to burn just to show you not to mess around with fires and nylon. The instructions for the fly just don't mention the velcro.

Chris - Really nice and detailed photos of the tent, thanks for posting them.

If you put the tent up again and take more photos, it would be great to see the tent with something inside it to be able to better judge the usable size of the tent. Eg. How does it look with two full length sleeping pads and one person sitting up in the tent?

In style or design this doesn't look that different from many other manufacturers backpacking tents such as the REI Quarter Dome, Big Agnes Copper Spur UL, or the MSR Hubba Hubba. These tents weigh between 3.5 and 4.5 pounds and cost $300 - $400 according to the REI website. I am curious how your Big Sky compares to these. Could you put the tent components on a scale and tell us what it adds up to?

No idea what's happening with the fly. Maybe Bob sent you the fly for a different model of the tent by mistake?

Yeah, in my rushing around I forgot to bring a sleeping bag / pad / quilt for size.

I'll definitely do a Round 2, experiment with the fly, take some shots of it on my scale, etc. I have to weigh the components anyway to update my Gear Grams.

Hoping the fly isn't "wrong", and that it's just user error!

Chris, how long did you leave the fly on. I'm wondering if the tightness is by design allowing for the sil-nylon to relax, typically after 1/2 hour or so.

Thanks so much for the pictures. The tent body does look awesome.

Chris,

Thanks for persevering here. Nice tent! Think it's worth the money?

No problem!

I think it's TOTALLY worth the money, especially given what I've seen from Big Agnes for a similar price. However, without re-testing this fly situation, I'm still not 100% on board. But if it set-up perfectly the first time without that problem, then yes, I'd be 100%.

As for letting it 'stretch', I didn't... I didn't even realize that was something you should do. It was pretty much only set up for a matter of minutes, maybe 10 at max.

I've been looking at the pictures, and had the following thoughts.

Good pics.

The photos of the inner tent with the poles (middle of the series) look good: everything seems to be right.

The last photo shows the fly over the poles, and the pole to the left looks wildly out of place. I would have thought it should be aligned with the seam in the fly, but at the worst it is a foot to the right of the seam. Something seriously wrong there.

There's a risk here too. If the tent was to get bad weather with the pole that far out of position, the tent would collapse and the poles would be damaged, or broken.

I suspect you just have to figure out how to keep the poles at the seams. Maybe hook&loop tape?

More thoughts on second look. You may have pulled the fly down at the corners far too tight. That may be pushing the poles out of position.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 05/18/2012 16:20:32 MDT.

Chris
I thought that you might have put the fly back to front but I see that in the official pics the (inner) doors and door panels on the fly are not at the same end ..
Measure the width of the fly at each end and see if it matches the one on the BSI website...
(should be around 66" at one end and 56" at the other (aprox....) )
Just a small thing : turn those V pegs the other way (close up pic...)
Franco

Edited by Franco on 05/18/2012 18:21:57 MDT.

The floor plan of the tent is asymmetric...so is the fly, or it should be. Could it be as simple as, you've got the "wide" end of the fly over the narrow end of the tent (and vice-versa)? The seams of the fly should very closely follow the ridgelines formed by the poles.

Hey Guys – Thanks for all the input... Lots of good suggestions. Unfortunately I still haven't re-pitched it, but I will within the next couple hours. I emailed Bob on Thursday and he has since written back at least 6 times, as well as called me, trying to resolve this.

He seems to think I just plain did it wrong. (Which is highly likely) The fly is supposed to connect to those elastic cords at the corners, and I was using them to stake out the tent. He gave me instructions for the proper procedure. I'll follow that and report back.

But thanks for chiming in with suggestions guys, really appreciated.

I just got my Evo 2P in the mail on Thursday. Haven't had time to set it up yet - planning to open up the package tomorrow.

Interestingly, I ordered mine on June 7, 2011. See my previous post on my dealings with Bob Molen at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=42566 .

I find it a bit funny that when Chris placed his order, I had already been waiting for 11 months, and Chris got his tent a few days before I got mine. But I'll gladly put up with that -- and put up with the multiple periods of months and months over the past year when I tried to reach Bob by phone and e-mail and he didn't get back to me -- if the tent is as good and as light as people say. I can verify that Bob didn't charge me until it shipped, and I'll note that Bob gave me $25 off my tent specifically because I am a paying BPL member.

If mine has the same issue as Chris' with the poles and fly misaligning or whatever, I'll post again. And if it needs repairs, I'll let you guys know how that process goes.

I can't see how you have the fly attached at the stakes. But it should look like this.

I set up my Evolution 2P this morning. I'm having the same issue as Chris. When I put the fly on, it constricts the body of the tent.

I contacted Bob Molen and he called me right back. I'm supposed to talk to him again this evening when I'm back in front of the tent, see if he can tell me how to set up the tent so that I don't have this problem.

I also may be having an issue with the floor of the body of the tent not flattening out enough, similar to the issue Ray Estrella had when he reviewed the tent last year. The sides do not sit completely flat against the ground. I’ll play around with it and see if I can remedy this, too. (Last year when I asked Bob about the issue Ray had, Bob claimed it was due to Ray getting a defective tent to review.)

By the way, I weighed all the pieces of the tent.

body: 1 lb, 3.1 oz
UL fly: 12.5 oz
aluminum poles: 12.6 oz
footprint: 4.9 oz
grommet kit for footprint: 0.8 oz

I haven't yet looked to see how much excess material there is that could be trimmed off.

Hi Chris

Well, it seesm your postings have been very valuable to many. Keep it up!

Cheers

Hey Guys! I took this tent out this weekend. It performed great. Was greeted with a torrential downpour in the morning too... but only the sound of it! We stayed completely dry. It felt extremely secure.

I'm on the go right now so I'll follow-up with more details. I also still need to weigh everything.

But check out my new pictures!

As for the tent issue, this is what Bob told me, which seems to resolve the issue way more than previously:



"Use non-elastic cord for stakes.
Use elastic cord ONLY for fly… elastic cord should NOT be used for stakes."

Also!


A couple more tips:
1) Attaching the fly Velcro to poles is option, but it will keep the fly better aligned with poles and interior tighter… if Velcro is not attached to the poles, the pole can be “pulled in” similar to the first setup causing the interior netting to sag too much
2) The elastic cords are adjustable… they do NOT have to be super tight… if too tight, the seams will not align with poles… the reason for the elastic cord so the fly tightness is “self-adjusting” (compared to NON-elastic stake loops because the tent should be as solidly connected to the ground as possible.)
3) the elastic cord was designed to be easy to be replace if it ever wears out
4) Fly hooks/rings/webbing are color coded… “red” is foot/narrow end… so when setting up tent, just look for “red” and connect accordingly…

And!


I noticed another thing on the attached picture you took…

It appears the poles may not be straight line from one stake diagonally to the other stake… since everything, including poles, are very light weight it is easy to distort the shape…. it is easy to pull the ends/pole tips wider than they should be, then the fly will not fit correctly.

I recommend putting the 1st stake in, then staking the 2nd stake diagonal to the 1st next rather than staking next to 1st stake… it is easier to see that the poles are in a straight line from one stake diagonally to the other stake…. then add the 3rd stake and add the 4th stake diagonally in a straight line to the 3rd stake… does this make sense?

Setting up the Evolution correctly will make everything fit and work better. After the interior is set up look down the poles, if the poles are not in a straight line it is best to realign the stakes so they are in straight line rather than trying to add the fly when the interior is not set up correctly…

Edited by Scalawag on 05/22/2012 20:08:24 MDT.

this thread seems to be back on track.

Chris, congrats on your new tent. Looks pretty cool and at 2.76 lbs, is pretty light for a freestanding dome. I woulda bought one last year if I could have gotten it in a timely manner. Hopefully this is a good start for BSI. Glad you are so please with your tent. And thanks for hanging in there through all the kafuffle.

Hi Chris

Yes, that does look a whole lot better, doesn't it? :-)

Now, those loops of bungee cord. I see you are using simple thumb knots on those - perhaps that is how they were supplied. This often happens on goods from China. But that knot is also known as the 'European Death Knot'. When used on climbing rope and placed under load, it can roll along the rope to the end and 'fall off'. When that happens the loop is undone, which can be mildly embarrassing if you happen to be belayed off it.

Can I suggest replacing EVERY case of the thumb knot with either a sheet bend or a tape knot. The latter is a thumb knot but with the ends in opposition. Both work very well on bungee cord and will not let go in the middle of the night in a storm.

Added in Edit:
Even though it holds very well, I can undo the sheet bend very easily. Undoing a tape knot which has been loaded ... is not easy!

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 05/23/2012 04:00:00 MDT.

Thanks for the knot advice! Wouldn't have thought of that... and probably would have found out at the worst time. Much appreciated.

Chris, you said:

----------------------------
By the way, I weighed all the pieces of the tent.

body: 1 lb, 3.1 oz
UL fly: 12.5 oz
aluminum poles: 12.6 oz
footprint: 4.9 oz
grommet kit for footprint: 0.8 oz
-----------------------------

WAIT A MINUTE!
Is that body weight a typo? The BSI site says the body is 2lb 15.5oz and the used one I am looking at comes in at 3.5lb grand total stakes and all. 19oz doesn't seem nearly right for the 2p.

Kevin: my Evo 2P tent body and fly weigh in at 33 ounces for the pair. Alum poles were 15.3 ounces. Footprint came in at 5.4 ounces and stakes at 1.7 ounces. Just under 3.5 pounds. I believe Chris is saying his body/fly weighed in at 31.6 ounces. I have the clear plastic window on my fly which, along with my less-than-scientific measuring skills, may account for the 1.4 ounce difference.

Ahhh. Ok, that should have been obvious to me.

Thx

I actually haven't officially weighed my set-up yet, or posted about the weight, so I'm not sure where you guys thought I did...

I will though! I just keep forgetting. Will do when I get home later.

Chris -- Kevin mistook you for earlier poster (Berg) in this thread when he cited you as the source for weights of components for the Evolution 2P.

Looking forward to seeing the weights you get with your new tent.

Here are weights for my Evolution 2P (the fly has a clear plastic window)--

Tent body -- 19.46 oz
Tent fly -- 17.89 oz
Easton 7075 poles (2x) -- 13.29 oz
Pole repair sleeve (5") -- 0.29 oz
Ti skewer stakes (6x) -- 1.50 oz
Easton tube stakes (6x) -- 2.16 oz
BS guy lines/tensioners -- 1.16 oz
BS tent stuff sack -- 1.54 oz
BS stake stuff sack -- 0.21 oz

Total weight -- 55.96 oz (3.50 lbs)

Footprint (6.75 oz) and grommet kit (0.47) for the footprint increases the total to 63.18 oz (3.95 lbs).