I'm looking at getting a new tent. I would love to get something light. I've been reading various threads and reviews concerning different style tents, etc.

The issues I'm wrestling are while looking for a 2 person tent:

1. Single wall or double: I've read about the condensation issues with single-is that common? Something to really worry about? I will I be less warm in single?

2. In conjunction with #1, do I go for a Tarp Tent style or more expensive light wait traditional ( I do own trekking poles)

I'm trying to balance the tricky issues of weight, comfort, durability and ease of set up (maybe I'm asking for too much) For example: What are the advantages/disadvantages between a BA Copper Spur UL 2 vs. a TarpTent Double Rainbow-as a novice it "seems" like the BA will protect more, not have as much condensation issues, but much more expensive

Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Please let me know which tent you appreciate and why. Again, I love the idea of keeping my pack weight down with a lighter tent.

I am a novice backpacker hoping to gain more experience

I can't comment on the single vs. double wall bit.

"What are the advantages/disadvantages between a BA Copper Spur UL 2 vs. a TarpTent Double Rainbow"

Coppper Spur: Trail weight: 3 pounds 6 ounces (poles, fly, and tent body)
Double Rainbow: 2 pounds 9 ounces (add in poles for support, negligible if already carrying!)

So that's a weight savings of 13 ounces, nothing to sneeze at! Ounces are what it boils down to, I think. If you're using the double rainbow as your UL reference, just be aware even it is on the heavy side. If you really want to see some of the possible stuff check out zpacks Hexamid Twin (with bug netting and a beak). UL can be way expensive too, but wow is that thing light. You could also just use a tarp if you're looking for bare bones, those are uberlight.

Before giving response to your questions, it might be helpful to know where you backpack, under what sorts of conditions. My inclination would be to recommend more of a tarptent style, but I hike in relatively mild conditions and those who hike in more extreme weather might recommend other things.

Consider a tarp. I find I am happier with a groundsheet and no floor for several reasons. A tarp is lighter. A tarp has fewer condensation issues. Really, the only "protection" you need is to keep water off of you(and bugs sometimes). A good tarp will keep most water off of you. Any water that sneaks in will likely roll off your sleeping bag's dwr and into the ground, not be held in by a waterproof floor. You can take a bug net of your choice in bug season.

Like d k said, where you hike can make a big difference. In the southern Sierras, which is where I mostly hike, condensation on a single wall tent is a very minor issue for the most part. Why? Because the air tends to be very dry.

In the MidWest or SouthEast, where humidity tends to be high, condensation would tend to be much more or an issue.

So where do you hike?

I'm backpacking mostly in the Utah area and I would say that I'm a three season backpacker-I imagine going on a camp out with scouts in the winter, but not tons of backing during the winter.

I have rarely had bothersome condensation issues in single-wall tarptents (mostly backpack in the Sierra), only have experienced lots of condensation in foggy cold weather (i.e., SF Bay Area). I would say that the tarptents I've used tend to be colder (i.e. more air circulation, drafty) than double wall tents, but there are things you can do (like pile stuff around your face or wear a hat or buff over your face) that make it less noticeable. The weight savings wins for me in the end.

The Tarptent Double Rainbow or Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo will probably be the most protective against cold drafts of single-wall tarptent styles, but also more prone to condensation from what I understand. Lightheart Duo (self-serving mention here; in the interest of full disclosure, I have one for sale on the Gear Swap now) is somewhat intermediate in both respects. Tarptent Cloudburst/Squall models are breezier, but less condensation prone yet. I'm limiting mentions to models I've actually owned (or at least had lengthy discussions with owners on, in the case of the Double Rainbow), and to two-person tents since that seems to be what you're interested in. I'm a cold sleeper, so my observations are colored by that aspect. Other folks may have differing opinions.

I have a Nemo Meta 1P. It is a one person tent. They do make a two person version which was favorably reviewed here on BPL. Perhaps you can extrapolate from this one person tent description if the two person would suit your needs.

This is a really great tent especially as a transitional shelter from a more traditional tent to a tarp/ Pyramid style tent. It is a hybrid of single wall and double wall types by having a huge vestibule on the front entrance of the tent. The entire door side is mesh. There is also an eyebrow shape mesh vent low on the back side wall which is covered by a mini vestibule. The apex of the tent also has an off center covered vent creating great circulation and very little condensation. The narrow sides of the tent are continuous, bathtub floor to wall so there are no drafts from these ends. It pitches like a tarp using one trekking pole and is very easy to pitch with no experience. All the seams are seam taped. The listed weight is something like 2lbs 8oz. The tent is actually 2 lbs including guylines. It comes with a compression drysac for a stuff sack which I don't use. It weighs the other 8oz. This tent is excellent if you are about 6'1" or under and uses 8 stakes. I got it new, on sale for a little over $200.

Have you considered the Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 at 2 lbs 10oz? I own one and liked it. I switched it out for a ZPacks Hexamid Twin Tarp with Extended Peak and FlyScreen at 11.75oz. It comes down closer to the ground on 3 sides than most tarps I have seen and protects me from the bugs. I still haven't tested either tent in a strong rain. On a light rain, the Fly Creek UL2 got rain on the inside when I unzipped the front because the door leans back. Those are two more considerations.

www.zpacks.com

Edited by maniacjwj on 05/08/2012 17:20:11 MDT.

Look at the Tarptent Stratospire 2 - much more spacious than the Double Rainbow, very easy setup, two protected doors, two spacious vestibules, and incorporates your trekking poles which you carry anyway. The spaciousness alleviates the issue with condensation - much less likely to brush against the tent walls. The tent fly also pitches closer to the ground than many Tarptents, increasing protection from the elements.

This tent is an excellent innovative design if you're thinking tent not tarp.

I use a Black Diamond Hilite tent. Single wall, very strait forward, good venting. Very light (under 3lbs). I've only had one incident in winter where there was noticeable condensation but not enough to bother with the idea of trading it in for a heavier dbl wall tent. An MSR Packtowel solves this problem immediately.

It is comparible in size to the Tarptent Rainbow. There is no need to bother with using treking poles which don't always stay in place or tent stakes for that matter which don't work on solid rock!

If I want a bit more room, I take the Black Diamond Lighthouse tent which adds an extra 6ozs and sets up the exact same way as the Hilite. Freestanding dome tent without extra frills that you can set up anywhere!

Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 is another traditional tent I'm looking at. It's quite pricey and seems like a great tent with low weight. This is what I'm struggling with in terms of getting a tent: do I pay the extra money for a traditional tent that is light or go for something a little more innovative like a tarptent style, possibly pay a little less, but maybe have a tent that isn't as protective, weather proof, etc. In my mind a traditional tent is more "protective" and may be this is where I err or don't have enough knowledge with tarptents

Cc,
Once you use a good single wall shelter for a while, you'll forget you ever thought it was less protective. Whichever shelter you use, you will become adept with and accustomed to. My recommendation is to buy popular single-wall, used shelters on the forum at prices where you're likely to get your money back if you change your mind. Try a couple this way and you will soon start to form preferences and your skills with the various shelters will improve, and eventually you'll end up with a shelter you really enjoy. In the meantime, you get to try a lot of cool new gear out!

Unfortunately I don't think there's a simple answer to this question. As often said every shelter has it's pros and cons. Your problem is the classic newcomers - you don't know what your criteria are so you can't decide.

I actually think this is where the traditional shelter shines. A double wall traditional shelter weighs more but can handle the widest range of conditions. This is good if you don't know what the conditions will be - either because you're inexperienced or because you go to a lot of different places and want the flexibility.

Don't get me wrong - I own single wall, tarps and a bivy but no double wall. However one thing I've noticed is that all of these have a point at which you wouldn't take them because some condition makes them suck. If you want one shelter to do it all then traditional may be the way to go.

Here was the single wall tent I used near a calm lake. Hope it can give you an idea of how bad the condensation could be. It was absolutely miserable that day. All my down sleeping bag were wet.



If you clearly know the air is not so humid, you are probably ok. To me, I think I cannot trust the tent if I fly to a new place, where I never tried the tent. Who knows how bad it could be when you wake up.

I have asked the similar question in the past. I think the answer came down to whether you use trekking poles. If you use them, Six Moon Design Haven or a double wall Tarptent would be better becasue they are bigger than BA Fly Creek. Copper Spur would be bigger also, but it is also heavier.

If you do not use trekking poles, then there is really no choice. You have to use regular tent.

Thanks everyone for your comments-they have been most helpful.

Regarding Condensation -

When the conditions are ripe you Will get condensation, whether you are under a "single wall" or a "double wall". A high open single wall may promote better circulation, but then you are compromising your "shelter effect" and getting wet from blown in rain. Many double wall flies are tight to the tent, close to the ground, and lack a vent, greatly enhancing the accumulation of condensate. The air flow (if there is any) can reduce the condensation, but again, it is not a function of single or double.

How you deal with the condensation is the issue. If you can control your movements under a single wall and not bump into the wet wall, all will be OK (given a good design and a tight pitch). All a double wall provides is a "bumper" to remind you to "go no further" (and maybe reduced heat loss).

When considering one over the other, remember to factor in proximity. Many single walls are small and low volume to minimize weight. Double walls usually have more volume and keep you further from the wet wall. But a reverse of this provides insight: I imagine a Mountain Laurel Design's Trailstar would be much easier to live in than a Big Agnes' Fly Creek UL1.

In either case you will still (occasionally) have to deal with a soaking wet, cold, sloppy, miserable piece of fabric. (And with a double wall, perhaps two.)

Edited by greg23 on 05/09/2012 19:35:16 MDT.

This is certainly not the lightest (or the heaviest)tent out there, but for what you are looking for may be the best option. This tent gives you options... you can have a insect net or leave it at home... you can have a floor or leave it at home and just bring the tarp. You can leave the center pole at home and use your trecking poles... you can leave your trecking poles at home and just suspend the top of the tarp from a branch.

You can go as light as 2 pounds, as heavy as 4 and a half.

The best thing about this single wall is the teepee style setup... the tarp is adjustable on the bottom. On days of heavy condensation you can adjust it to be higher to allow more ventilation. As the walls are all slanted, even with heavy condensation it will drip down the walls and away from you and your floor unless you are touching the side of the tent.

Golite is asking $200 right now.. I would hurry though as everying on that site is on sale and going fast... I wanted a quilt and they will not have it in stock until August.

Ask me though, the best option is hammock camping. Not cheap, but man is it a good night's sleep. I am getting rid of all my tents except for the Shangri la 3 because of how much I now like hammock camping. The only reason why I am hanging onto the one tent is I sometimes do some backpacking in the desert and there are not many trees to hang a hammock from.

Edited by devoncloud on 05/09/2012 14:19:22 MDT.

I will look into the Golite Shangrila 3 -the Golite Shangrila 2 looks real good, especially for the price. Does anyone have any opinions on that tent?

The idea of having a "free standing" tent seems real appealing. Do you feel having a free standing tent is important or are the benefits overblown?

how would you compare the Golite Shangrila 2 vs. Tarptent Rainbow?

Golite Shangrila 2 vs. Tarptent Double Rainbow

"The idea of having a "free standing" tent seems real appealing. Do you feel having a free standing tent is important or are the benefits overblown?"

Mostly, the benefits are marketing based, rather than practical. There are some free-standing tents that are solid and reliable, but there are a lot of free-standing tents that fit Roger Caffin's pejorative "popup" monicker, also. (No offense, Roger. Just taking advantage of your terminology. :))

In general, if you're doing real-world camping where you might encounter things like inclement weather, there's no such thing as free-standing, because you still have to stake it down if you want it to stay put.

I've seen lots of positive reviews for both, but have no personal experience with them, so I'll defer to others who have first-hand experience with them. :)

> All a double wall provides is a "bumper" to remind you to "go no further"
> (and maybe reduced heat loss).

My guess is that having a double wall does reduce condensation because the temperature difference between the fly's interior and exterior is somewhat reduced.

"My guess is that having a double wall does reduce condensation because the temperature difference between the fly's interior and exterior is somewhat reduced."

Do you mean to say that the inside surface of the fly is warmer and thus less prone to condensation?

If so, how is that accomplished by the existence of an interior wall retaining heat?

Just asking here. (My style can be a little terse, but no denigration is intended.)

Edited by greg23 on 05/09/2012 21:32:59 MDT.

Free standing tents can be nice if you're on solid rock, but be aware that they still need to be staked down if there is any wind or weather. they also tend to be heavier than non-freestanding tents.

Check YouTube for some hilarious vids of freestanding tents flying in the wind! You don't want that to be you!!!

Personally, I haven't used a free standing tent for years, decades even.

Edited by grampa on 05/09/2012 21:32:39 MDT.

My opinion is, it's a nice option to have if the extra weight is something you can manage. Typically the weight difference isn't that drastic, so I say, why not? It is foolish to think they don't need stakes though. A decent breeze even on a calm day can send one tumbling. At LEAST stake out 2 corners (diagonally), or keep some heavy gear items in there, if you can't stake it out.

Typically setting up on rock is a bad idea, but sometimes you just want a crazy vista or a new experience, and I think it's nice to be able to improvise with a few options.

Any thoughts on the Golite Shangrila 2 vs. Tarptent Double Rainbow?

Also, is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall?

"Also, is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall?"

Potentially, yes. It's always possible to defeat the tent though, with the simple expedient of closing up the vents and breathing inside it. :)

Closed up, the tent will trap a layer of mostly still air between the two skins, which does provide some insulation. The need to maintain airflow in order to fend off condensation means that you'll be letting the heat bleed out through convection - that's of course why so many tents have low+roof vents... You lose heat, but gain circulation, which helps you to mitigate condensation.

With one wall, you don't have that extra layer of air, so you get less insulation.

Even a mesh inner will give you some extra warmth just by slowing down the airflow through the tent, but a nylon inner will trap more than a mesh inner.

>> is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall? <<

I think that depends largely on the tent design of both the single wall and double wall tents in question. Most single wall tents are built to be quite "airy" to reduce condensation and in my area, they can turn into a very cold wind tunnel. Some single wall shelters can be pegged down tight to the ground and this will eliminate the the wind-tunnel effect but can increase the condensation build up considerably, so a bit of a trade off.

If a double wall tent has a combination of higher non-mesh sides and partial mesh on the inner tent (like the original Copper Spur and Fly Creek), they trap heat a little better because the wind doesn't pass through quite so easily but still keep the condensation away from you.

I find that my free standing tents take up less space than the non-free standing because the angle of the guy lines can be a bit less severe (the poles hold up the tent not the guy outs), so less space required.

Another consideration for me was that I do a lot of base camping and day trips so I like to have my trekking poles with me. This means I have to take the optional poles to support a free standing tent, so the weight saving over my double wall is reduced considerably. I like the idea of a free standing tent but unless I go to a cuben free standing hybrid, I'm really not gaining much with a non-free standing single wall tent.

UL tents, being single wall, are colder and prone to more "visable" condensation.
By visable condensation I mean the kind that will eventually drip down the sides onto the floor, wipe on your head, or shower your head with ice in cold weather.

Double walled shelters are warmer. Generally the person is protected from draughts and breezes not picked up by the fly, bugs & critteres. The second inner tent (bug mesh, light duty fabric or heavier non-silicone nylon) usually has a floor. Condensation still happens, but is generally not "visable" to the sleeper.

A single walled tent only has a single layer of insulation. with no air space. A double walled shelter has an air space between the two tent surfaces, again, adding insulating value. This is, of course, offset by the need for ventilation. Soo you can only get 10-15C degree temp differential out of most tents. Single wall tents are usually closer to 5-7 degree differential. Roughly about twice as warm in a double walled tent as opposed to a single walled tent.

Staking is a problem with either. A good stake will hold well at about a 30 degree angle. The closer to a 90 degree stress on the stake, the stronger the staking pount, generally. Longer guy lines set near the top of a dome help more than those set near vertical tent walls. Wind hammer, gusts and vagrant eddies, will loosen stakes (a small elastic bungie will help minimize this and increase the effective staking angle.) Heavy winds will cause them to fail. I am ignoring poles and tent materials.

Double walled tents are generally used mostly by the light weight people. Those with less than 20 pound base loads. They generally weigh about 2/3 more than a single walled shelter. Cuben double walled shelters are rediculously expensive as of today. Single walled shelters are used mostly by the UL weight people, those with less than 10 pound base loads. (Note that this says nothing about the trip duration, nor, activities planned.) Per title, you knew that...

While it depends also a lot on the particular tent's design, yes, a double wall is warmer than a single wall. It can be so for two reasons: first, it's as obvious as being two walls of fabric between occupants and the outside... this may mean little if camping under a thick tree but may mean a lot under a heat sink like the night, cloudless sky.

Second it's ventilation: ventilation is needed to mitigate condensation. On a single wall, ventilation goes through the living quarters, there's no other place. On a double wall, ventilation can (and if the design is good, will) go through the space in-between walls, providing for a warmer living space.

Condensation is another tricky subject clearly related to warmth. We mitigate condensation through ventilation which in turn lowers the temp through convection and this promotes condensation :) Still, the net effect is usually to our advantage. A double wall will keep heat inside and be more prone to condensation on the inside of the outer wall !! but it's easier to ventilate so (if the design is good) is usually less prone to condensation overall.

I think here that while we are discussing this we have to think about what would happen if condensation occurred and dampened all your gear... then you would not be more insulated at all with the double wall. Yes, condensation is less in a double wall (in theory) however your inner wall will collect the condensation and puddle it in your tent somewhere. If that happens to be where you are sleeping you are in big trouble.

Single wall free-standing tents in my opinion are the way to go. I don't use tents to keep me warm, just dry. My sleeping bag needs to be warm enough to do that on it's own. If I mis-judge the weather and am cold then I add layers of clothing and boil water, add it to a nalgene bottle, and put it in my sleeping bag closed which will add a good ten degrees easy to my bag. This will last all night. If you keep it between your legs near your main arteries it will keep your core temperature up too.

bottom line, don't rely on your tent for warmth... doing so will lead you to be cold and most likely damp since the heat in your tent is what is causing the condensation in the first place. Ventilation is key to stop the condensation.

Thanks again for everyone's wonderful insights- I'm learning a lot.

Any last thoughts between the Golite Shangri-la 2 vs. Tarptent Double Rainbow? If I go the single wall route I'm considering these two tents

If I go traditional, I'm considering the BA Fly Creek UL2 tent or possibly the MSR Carbon Reflex 2 (it's selling for a discounted price here locally)

Any thoughts on the tents mentioned above would be greatly appreciated

This tent is a bit more in weight but the design is so much more flexible than the 2 that I would suggest spending the extra bucks. furthermore, your main concern (it seems) is condensation... this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor wich could mean sleeping in a puddle... not to mention the ability to change the tent features for whatever trip you go on.

Just my two cents worth.

Edited by devoncloud on 05/10/2012 10:18:07 MDT.

> your inner wall will collect the condensation and puddle it in your tent somewhere

I don't agree with this. It may happen but it's not something to be expected for a well designed tent.

Overall, condensation is less of an issue in double wall tents. Not only because of the physical separation but because on average there's less condensation on double walls. I use single walls myself almost exclusively but aware that it's a compromise.

The expected location(s) will be an important factor in the validity of that compromise. Double walls are more interesting in damp & cool climates. The OP says Utah: that's rather dry, a very good play field for single walls, imo.

> this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor

If you mean the Shangri-La's, all of them, they're totally modular and all the elements can be used on their own or in combination with the others. Fly and floor are two separate pieces

"I don't agree with this. It may happen but it's not something to be expected for a well designed tent."

My experience matches this one.

Particularly with modern tents, the ventilation is getting to be very well designed, so they don't have anywhere near the condensation problems of older tents. You can pitch the fly low enough to keep the wind out, and still set yourself up with good flow-through ventilation in the better tents.

The Carbon Reflex is a nice tent... I tried one out, but I prefer tarps, or I'd probably using a CR now.

I don't know whether or not there's a mostly nylon inner available for the ShangriLa 3 from GoLite, but you can probably get one custom made easily enough, so it would be very versatile. I think it's possible to pitch GoLite's inner by itself also, so you can have it your way, and take advantage of nice nights while keeping the bugs at bay :)

" this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor

If you mean the Shangri-La's, all of them, they're totally modular and all the elements can be used on their own or in combination with the others. Fly and floor are two separate pieces"

No, this was not meant for all of them, just shangrila 2. I own the shangrila 3 and love it specifically for the modular use it gives you.

If this is going to be for two people, I think the best choice for a beginning backpacker is one of these:
Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 3
Tarptent Scarp 2

Sometimes the REI Quarter Dome T2 Tent goes on sale for $200, so that would be a cheaper option.

All three are very flexible, well-rounded tents that will work well under most conditions.

In my opinion, the Shangri-La's are not very convenient when you use the inner nest.

You should check out backpackinglight's State of the Market Report: Two-Person Double-Wall Tents (2010). They make recommendations for intended uses. The Copper Spur series has lost some weight since then I think.

The current Shangrila 3, at least the one I just got, is not fully modular. The nest is a floor and bug net sewn together so it is now basically a traditional two walled shelter.

There used to be three pieces for the Shangri-La 3: the fly, the floor (with no bug net) and the nest, which is as you describe floor+bug net. You could buy any of the 3 pieces separately. It seems they now only sell the whole package which includes fly and nest. I also believe it used to be the same for the other Shangri-Las but I can only speak first hand for the 3, which is the one I have: fly and (no bug net) floor.

FWIW, I never liked the stock floor because it's far from lightweight. I made a copy in lighter materials (fabric, cords, buckles) that turned out half the weight and it's the one I regularly use now. The fly is quite fine as it is.

Edited by inaki on 05/12/2012 06:41:25 MDT.

CC,

I would suggest you make a list of what things are important to you in a shelter and the conditions you will encounter. Their is no perfect shelter for everyone. Could of things;

- Are you looking at a 2 person for the extra room or because you will share the shelter
- If you are sharing the shelter I would select the REI T2 (I just made that decision for a shelter I will share with my brother in law). It has two doors, vestibules for gear and is pretty light. Would not take it for just me however
- I like side entrance because it is easy for me to get in and out than a end entry. I also have the option to do some cooking in a light rain (depends on the shelter)
- If you get much rain how to do feel about dealing with it. I have road out some pretty heavy storms with high winds and heavy rain under my Trailstar without any issue. Only issue is getting in and out of the shelter on the soggy ground. Not a big issue for some, but those that need to get up a few times during the night that can be a pain
- How are the bugs in your area. If you pick a Trailstar, Tarp, Duomid, etc you will need to deal with a bug bivy or inner net. I have both and they are a real pain to me. However many love them and have no issues.
- In cold weather and wind things like bivy, natural wind blocks, site selection become more important.
- In the late fall, winter and early spring you have a lot of time in the shelter. Are you a guy who can sleep for 12 hours or do you like to chill in the shelter for awhile (journal, cards, read, etc). You might like a little more room if you do these. If you go to bed and sleep 12 straight hours then you have a lot of options.

I would suggest thinking through conditions. You don't pick a shelter based on good weather/conditions. They all work in those cases. Couple things;
- you just hiked a long day, its now raining and getting cold fast. You need to setup shelter, cook food, hang bear bag, etc.
- first setup shelter on wet ground. If you shelter doesn't have a floor, then you need to put down you ground sheet
- now it's rainy, ground is wet and you are under the shelter on groundsheet. Now you have to get bed ready, put on sleep clothes
- You ok doing this in a floor less or would you prefer being in a floored shelter doing this.
- It's time to get up and start hiking. It's rainy. Now you have to pack up your backpack and hit the trail.

In my opinion, single or double wall is not the question because I think either will work. To me extra pound of weight doesn't really make a difference and doesn't effect my performance. It all comes down to what works for you and fits your style. Now you have to pick where you spend the extra weight and don't fall into the trap of just carrying extra weight.

For the record I have several shelters and pick based on the forecast and my mood.

MLD Trailstar
MLD Solomid
MLD Grace Duo
MSR Carbon Reflex 1
REI T2
BD Lighthouse
GG One

Just my two cents and many others here have more experience.

Brad Fisher

Brad
thank you very much for your insights-I appreciate it

I would have to agree with Brad on most of what he said there. That being said, not all of us can afford a tent for every occasion, and purchasing a tent that gives you options on what to bring is a good way to go unless you are planning to own several tents.

To me, the Shangri La 3 is still the way to go on this front. I did see a post that stated the mosquito nest is hard to deal with.. I am assuming this is because it requires you use either the one pole the tent comes with or treckning poles to hold it up at the center of the tent... this is true, however having to sleep around the pole is not hard on this tent and still gives you room for two people and all your gear.

Just my opinion of course, but if you are looking for a tent that can give you the most use all year around, my choice is still the Shangrila 3. As Brad stated though, if you are planning on aquiring a tent for every season/weather type, then there are better options for each condition as there are tents that specialize in that one condition.

For me, I no longer use a tent if I can help it. I owned about ten tents, and sold all but the Shangrila 3. It's options was my reasoning for keeping it... If I cannot use a hammock (either because there are not enough hanging locations or the area does not allow the hanging of hammocks), the Shangrila is what I turn to because it provides me the most options to handle almost any type of condition (even if it does not handle each condition the best, it still performs great in each).