"Tom, supposedly the kill temperature for Giardia cysts is about 175 F, so that is a good temperature to shoot for."

I don't much worry about it where I hike, Bob, and when there is any doubt I just zap the little buggers with my trusty Steripen. So far, so good. ;)

"If all you're doing is saving 0.6 or 1.4 ounces it hardly matters

To you."

Hypothetically, if I put an extra 0.6 or 1.4 ounces in your pack you wouldn't notice the difference.

If you saved 0.6/1.4 ounces here, and 0.6/1.4 ounces there, eventually it could make a difference.

"Then there is the question of fuel economy"

That could make more of a difference.

After a little poking around and collecting numbers from various posts -

JetBoil Sol Ti Companion Cup, Hacked - 5.3 ounces
Monatauk Gnat Burner - 1.7 ounces
Small Canister - 7 ounces

Total: 14 ounces

For Pot, Stove, and Fuel.

If I wanted a canister, this would be the combination. If you didn't care about windscreens, efficiency, or stability you could easily get by with a basic Ti pot and save a few more ounces.

So, I can see where a canister could come out ahead.

Edited by greg23 on 05/06/2012 18:47:00 MDT.

For a half liter per boil? 2 cups?? Hmmm... I typically eat a big breakfast and supper. I boil a liter at each. And do a about 15 minutes worth of simmering, besides. Yes, I am solo mostly, sometimes the wife tags along and I need more.

Breakfast is generally 2 cups of coffee and two oatmeals. The first is in a cup (boils in about 1 minute) and then I put 3 cups on to boil as I drink it watching the sun rise. I am usually up at first light whatever time it is.

Paddling all day or hiking is just cold snacks, usually 5min/hour or so.

Supper is a cup of cocoa and one of soup, stew, fresh fish, rice sides, pot pie, or similar.

Presleep is often another cup of cocoa or similar, often heated over an open fire sometimes heated over a stove again.

I burn about 1oz of fuel per day in an old SVEA. Total weight for ten days is:
SVEA: Stove and cup, 19oz
Fuel: 12floz pepsi bottle (about 10oz fuel and bottle, full 12oz but I don't think I have ever used it all.)
3 cup pot, spoon, lid and windscreen: ~5oz

Right around 35-36oz for the total kit. Two weeks is about 4oz heavier in a slightly larger bottle (16oz.) Bottles only change about 1/4oz.

I tried canisters but require several of them at about 3/4oz per day (three 4oz canisters+pot&lid, cup, spoon and wind screen. The UL "toppers" for canisters waste a lot of heat to the outside. You need another canister. Alcohol is just as heavy at 2.5oz per day + cup, pot & lid, wind screen and spoon...and it is slower.

Some numbers...
Kitchen kit: Pot, lid, cup, windscreen, spoon, total: ~5oz

With canister gas I get:
Windpro: 6.8oz, three 4oz canisters: 24oz (I should have 4 but on low it works with three.) + kitchen kit total: about 35.8oz

With Alcohol I get:
Caldera cone: 12/10 (ading in the difference for wind screens here) 2.5oz + fuel is 28oz + kitchen kit total: 35.5oz

SVEA is total: 36oz

So for boiling 2 liters a day and being ccomfotable with a warm drink just before bed, they all work out close to the same for 7-10 days. I don't worry about the ounce or two difference for a ten day hike. For longer, I always bring the svea. It pays in the long run in fuel. Not necessarlily weight, but volume and dollars. Smaller volume means a smaller pack, so I save overall weight by bringing a smaller, ligher pack (usually a Miniposa at 17oz-with hip pockets- for 7-14 day trips, a Murmur at 8.5oz for shorter trips.) It really doesn't matter which stove I bring. The SVEA is the most compact, taking up about as much space as two and a half cups. Again, this is not my UL kit for two nights out, but weighs close to the same and is always set up, ready to go. Canisters and a Jet Boil Sol for example are a lot larger. A Simerlight burns fuel at twice the rate. A Primus needs delicate handling, unlike the SVEA and needs an extra canister. The Caldera cone does not cook well. And so on...

"The Caldera cone does not cook well."

I've baked a variety of quick breads, cooked scrambled eggs, and simmered oatmeal. But that is not what a Cone is designed to do.

A Caldera Cone boils 2 cups of water very efficiently, which is what the OP is looking for.

Edited by greg23 on 05/06/2012 19:18:34 MDT.

"Hypothetically, if I put an extra 0.6 or 1.4 ounces in your pack you wouldn't notice the difference."

True.

"If you saved 0.6/1.4 ounces here, and 0.6/1.4 ounces there, eventually it could make a difference."

Which is exactly how I go about things.

"Then there is the question of fuel economy"

"That could make more of a difference."

Yes, more so than just the stove, but the stove is only part of the difference, as per my previous post. Little things here and there do add up.

I find a half of an Esbit cube in a Caldera Cone with a squat pot will heat 2 cups of water nearly to boiling, but not to a rolling boil. This is enough for breakfast or dinner in most cases. 3/4 of a cube will bring 2 cups to a rolling boil.

So 1.0 to 1.5 cubes per day would meet the needs of the challenge. Fuel weight would be 5.0 to 7.5 ounces for 10 days. The weight of pot and Caldera Cone and gram cracker stove would be about 5 to 6 ounces depending on selection. It's possible to go even lighter than this.

So the range of possibilities would reasonably be 10.0 to 13.5 ounces for a complete 10 day Esbit/CC system with a half-liter of water heated at each of two meals.

All of this assumes you cannot or chose not to use a wood burner.

Ha ha...in the one link, the UK fellas refers to alcohol stoves as "Meth Stoves". They do seem light and useful, but the aging and paranoia they cause take such a toll. Have you seen the internet before and after photos of the ultralighters that use these? Faces of Meth Stoves, look it up.

I noted the crossover in both links ,where canister stoves become very weight efficient after several days, and that's without consideration of ease/speed to boil. I wasn't going to change, but it makes me feel smarter already.

Ten days is a little tricky, but here's how it works for me:

My canister setup is Snow Peak Giga (non Ti), plus MYOG windscreen and SP 600 mug w/ foil lid: 7.5 ounces. I figure 8 qt (or liters) boiled per small canister--8 days at a liter/day (generally my usage). Actually, since the first day is no breakfast, and last day is no dinner, this would be 9 hiking days. Total w/ full canister: 14.5 oz.

My similar alky setup is ~5.5 oz + fuel. (SP 600 mug + lid, windscreen, empty fuel bottle). At 1.5 oz alcohol/day, the crossover with canister is on day 6; at 2 oz/day, the crossover is between days 4 and 5.

The problem with 10 days is, if I can't stretch a small canister that far (using, say, some of the techniques Tom K. mentioned), I have to bring a larger canister, and the weight jumps past the alky stove again.

For trips 4-9 days, I'd take the canister stove. 1-3 days, alky. At maybe 10-13 days (-ish), the alky setup might have the edge again, but I'd be more inclined to stretch the canister by cooking a bit less. Could also take an alky stove and a few ounces of alcohol + the canister setup, which could be lighter overall than a larger canister.

I am now a Caldera Cone classic user (drinking coffee from the caddy), but I've been wondering about stepping down to a cat can (and burning lips on an evernew 600 pot?).

Have any of you made the transition one way or the other? I'm not sure about 10 days, but I'd think that on short trips the lighter weight would offset the reduced efficiency.

> The problem with 10 days is, if I can't stretch a small canister that far
Should be fairly easy to do. Cooking for two (my wife and me) for a fortnight takes one 450 g canister. That has been very thoroughly tested and proven. So cooking for one person for 10 days sghould be fine with one 230 g canister.
The Snow Peak Giga is a great stove, but you might want to look at a slightly wider pot for better efficiency.

Cheers

Fortnight?

What the .... is that?

Okay, I googled it and it's 14 days : )

Since I've made a smart alec remark - a small canister (4 ounces of isobutane) heats maybe 16 pints to a near boil - if I used it only to heat 1 cup for oatmeal, it would last 32 days, 1 cup otmeal + 1 pint coffee = 10 days,... - it depends on how much hot water you need per day

"but I'd be more inclined to stretch the canister by cooking a bit less."

+1

sp 600 2.8 oz, foil lid .07 oz
stand 0.22 oz
windscreen 0.45 oz
tealight - 0.05 oz
fuel container .75 oz .5L water bottle

.6 fl oz fuel per boil = 1.2x10=12 oz oz wt, but Id bring 10

so, total = 14.8 oz.

20 x 3 min boils is right at limit of 8oz cannister

12oz cannister + 1.7 oz stove+2.88=16.5 Use sleep pad for windscreen

alcohol still wins, barely, but more likely to accidentally run out. However its quieter, and I prefer that.

Edited by livingontheroad on 05/07/2012 18:29:54 MDT.

"...alcohol still wins, barely, but more likely to accidentally run out."

If you are willing to "overfill" and then recover the fuel, you very seldom run out, especially with only a 500ml boil.

Edited by greg23 on 05/07/2012 18:37:24 MDT.

I VERY much doubt an alky stove and fuel sufficient to bring 1 liter of water to boil two times a day for 10 days will be lighter than a small MSR canister and say, a Vargo Jet-Ti stove OR my Sidewinder stove W/ 20 ESBIT tabs (20 oz.)** using my efficient 3 cup wide pot & lid.

The canister fuel is hotter than alky and even ESBIT, and esp. Firelite tabs, are a bit hotter than alky.

**OOPS! those 20 ESBIT tabs weigh only 10 oz.

Edited by Danepacker on 05/08/2012 13:34:06 MDT.

Half a liter, twice a day.

Edit: Removed Esbit weight versus 2 cup boil comment. Digging some more....

Edit2:
I've found a number of posts stating that a half tab will get you a 2 cup boil. Especially if using a Gram Cracker.

If so, then one tablet (0.5 ounce) per day will get it done.
That's 5 ounces for Esbit versus 8 ounces (weight) for ethanol.

Anyone care to confirm Esbit weights to get a 2 cup boil?

Edited by greg23 on 05/07/2012 20:23:06 MDT.

FWIW, there is a good table here on ten day weights, soto vs. jetboil vs reactor vs cat can vs esbit.

By his math, at 10 days alcohol and esbit are tied for the lead.

Wood fire wins, bring a little alcohol and a cat food stove for backup in case.

Edited by KalebC on 05/07/2012 22:28:12 MDT.

With an esbit, you technically don't need a stove. You could just set up your pot in between some rocks and have it burning underneath. A stove might channel the heat a bit better though.
Esbits also make great firestarters for wood fires.