Thanks for the history on the Ultra. That is what I was wanting to know.

Have you been happy with the 7D nylon? How much weight difference did it make overall? Is it significantly more fragile? Do you notice any difference in how much down bleeds out through the material?

Jeff

Thanks Tim,

On a typical night I mostly back sleep. 1-2 hours side sleeping, 6 hours back sleeping would be a rough estimate. On most sleeping pads without a significant pillow the side sleeping time probably goes down.

I am looking at the Revelation on your website (5'6", regular/half). Do you feel pretty confident about me sneaking into the 5'6" size? I am exactly 5'8" with size 9.5 feet.

I looked at the fabric specs for my WM bags as a point of comparison. They are both 20d. I do not know if all fabrics are equal though. Is there a difference in thread count? I do not think I have every broke camp without seeing a couple of feathers that have bleed out through the WM bags. This was not something I had noticed with other MEC bags that I own (much heavier fabrics). I decided it is probably not a big deal at that rate but I am interested to know if you think that the lighter fabrics "8d" will bleed more, less or the same? Can you estimate the weight difference by dropping to the lighter fabric?

I found the 20d material to be sufficiently durable. I take care of my stuff. With an "8d" is it puncture resistance that is the concern or tear resistance?

Thanks again

Jeff

I just thought of something you might want to be aware of if you're looking at a custom quilt. Ryan Jordan argued in a recent article that 900 fill power down is so sensitive to humidity in the air that its not worth fooling with. I believe the article was "Prospects for New Gear." Now he's the only one I've heard say that so others may disagree. I'm just letting you know thats something to consider.

5'6" reg seems perfect to me.

Both fabrics have never leaked any down in my presence. I have never even seen a feather come out of the 20d but you may loose a few in the 8d, but it will just boost the overall fill power rating by reducing the amount of feathers;). Our down has so few feathers in it I don't even worry about down proofness any more.

I love the 8d as a liner. The 20d is so wind proof it is hard to pack as it takes time to push the air out. I think 20d 8d is a great combo. 8d saves 1-1.5oz per layer used.

We built a 6'REG 40* overstuff (32*) in all 8d and it weighed in at 14.8oz. It was tested without shelter down to 35* in extreme winds and was reportedly plenty warm if not hot. I have heard reports than 8d isn't windproof enough but that hasn't been my experience. I prefer a more breathable fabric for quilts than some. 7d and 20d are very wind water resistant and are great for many situations, however i really love the feel of 8d on the skin, it rocks.

-Tim

Edited by MarshLaw303 on 05/05/2012 08:28:36 MDT.

Excellent Tim.

So: 5'6" regular 30 degree with 20d/8d.

When/why would you recommend overfill?

You have steered me towards your down quilts. Is there a case to be made for the synthetics. Or not worth it for the conditions that I have described?

Jeff

Overfill helps in humidity, makes the quilt warmer for cold sleepers or allows warm sleepers to use a lighter quilt (30* overstuff at 20* for warmies)

-Tim

I've been very happy with the 7D (or is it 8D) fabric of my quilt (M55). I think sleeping bags/quilts are the perfect application for these very light nylons. With reasonable care, I have zero concerns that I'll ever damage my M55 shell. Keep in mind people are using windshirts made of similar stuff (ie. Montbell Tachyon Anorak) and trudging around the woods wearing it......my sleeping bag only comes out in the safety of my tent. Where heavier fabrics come in is if you have a sleeping bag with a zipper....then a zipper can cut these lighter fabrics. Also if you're using low grade down with huge feathers in it then maybe they would poke through these fabrics but it's really a red herring because no one would put crappy down in a sleeping quilt with high end shell fabrics.

For sure, more down leaked out of my Ultra 20 (with 15D or 20D) fabrics than my newer quilt. The Ultra 20 was still good and it was a non-issue, but every month or two you'd see a feather poking out. It could have more to do with the lower quality down (ie. more feathers in the down) than the fabrics though. True down doesn't have a stem, so it should never poke thru even crappy fabrics.

Some of these really light fabrics aren't that 'downproof', but it depends more on how the fabric is made. It's not as simple as lighter nylon = less downproof. M55 (and then new M50 I believe) are unbelievably downproof. Whereas the original M50 wasn't that downproof because of the way it was made. My understanding is that M50, 7D and 8D are all very downproof and it's an complete non-issue if you're using decent (800+) down.

My M55 shell fabric sounds like it acts a lot like Tim's 20D in the sense that it's so windproof that it can be a little 'hard to pack'. You almost need to squeeze the air out of it like you're squeezing a sleeping pad. It also takes a little longer to loft up, not because of the down but because it takes a while to suck in air through the fabric....not a big deal at all and much appreciated for the bomber downproofness. So really any nylon can be totally downproof if it's made right.

I wouldn't look at synthetics in your situation.....there's a lot of cons (lifespan, weight, pack-ability) and keeping a down quilt dry in your circumstances shouldn't be hard. Using a little of the weight you save to get a cuben roll top sack to ensure there's zero chance it gets wet in your pack.

Regarding 900fp down and possibly sucking in humid conditions, here's a few quick comments:
- I believe RJ said it may not be better than 800fp down in humid conditions (because it won't really loft up to 900 in anything but perfect conditions). I don't think he was saying that it was a bad choice...just that you might not get the benefit of the full 900 and it would perhaps just act like 800.
- It seems that RJ's comments are based on the idea that 900fp down uses down clusters that are more awesome/higher quality and extra lofty vs. 800fp down clusters. He then argues that these's 'extra lofty' down clusters won't actually give you that bonus loft in non-perfect conditions, so perhaps they're not worth paying extra for vs. 800fp down. This may sound reasonable, but I don't think it really reflects reality....at least not my experiences with 800/900 down. In my experience, the main difference between 800 and 900fp down is that there are fewer feathers (ie. virtually none) in the 900fp stuff, whereas 800fp down is commonly about 10% feathers.....which aren't very thermally efficient and they like to poke holes in your sleeping bag. So the actual down clusters in 800 and 900fp down are basically the same IMO, there's just fewer feathers in 900fp down which is a good thing for many reasons.

Thanks Dan. You have been very helpful.

I think I have decided on an Enlightened Revelation Regular width 30 degree quilt with 30% overfill and 20d outer/8d inner. Any final thoughts on my choice?

It appears that I have my summerlite sold locally (verbally agreed to but money not in hand yet) already so things are working out.

Jeff

That sounds really good to me. You'll probably want Regular Width/Half Taper unless you're a real tosser and turner and then you'll want the wide width/half taper.

Being a weight weenie, I personally would go 8D for the outer shell too and thus drop 1.5oz, but it depends on priorities (or perhaps money). Tim's 8D has a few differences from the 20D that have already been mentioned (price, wind proofness, durability).

8d is a no cost upgrade on any of my 20d quilts! Just want to clear up any confusion about that.

-Tim

I have the newest model of this, it is $149.00. We just got back from a long weekend in the Ouchita National Forest in Arkansas... the weather did not get below the 60s but it was very warm and very lofty... at that price it really can't be beat except if you want to drop a couple more ounces and pay a hefty price for the loss in weght. I am buying another one for my wife. Works great in our hammocks and with the provided straps would work great on on the ground too.

Another option (heavier but wonderful) is a big agnes bag.... you can get their ultralight bag and have a huge amount of wiggle room which seems to be what you like... this bag is similar to a quilt (no insulation on bottom) but still has material on the bottom that has a place for you to slide the mat into so that you do not separate from the pad when you toss and turn. You get the weight savings of a quilt (minus the extra material on the bottom) but you also do not get the cold drafts that you would get if a side of your quilt comes away from your pad. They also offer sleeves if you want to make a lighter bag able to perform in lower temps without having to purchase a different bag (that of course comes with added weight in your pack of course though).

"8d is a no cost upgrade on any of my 20d quilts!"

Oops....I guess I was just assuming it costs more. Thanks for the correction.