I've no idea how many or if beta testing - but I've had a couple failures of the XLites this spring. Eventually, one of their quality control engineers talked to me, and said that the problems I had, along with other folks problems with keeping air in the pad, had led them to halt distribution and review and improve their testing prior to shipment. They do "test" each pad before shipping, and that process hopefully is better now than at first. He did not detail what they will be doing differently.

"You're missing a lot, apparently."

Well, what you learn in first year economics is to not generalize about supply and demand without understanding the concepts. I am missing as much as you because you do not have any figures to support your claim.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 05/01/2012 18:18:47 MDT.

"As for the first year car analogy, I ended up with a first year dodge neon (no direct choice of my own) and let me tell you, many, many times was I left stranded, and many times requiring repairs that took longer than a day to complete."

Sorry to hear about that. However, the Neon in comparison to the 'class' is relatively inexpensive. For example, a Honda Civic is more money but would likely not have these problems and is promoted as such. It costs more but there are benefits with ownership, one of which is reliability.

With respect to the NeoAir, this is one very expensive pad in comparison to the class and is promoted as providing benefits over other, much cheaper offerings. When it works, the pad is great. However, these failures that we keep hearing about suggest poor QC by the company. Honda simply would not offer such a car to the market as the Neon and I would expect Cascade Designs to do the same with respect to their pads. Honda would do its testing beforehand.

I perfer to have the product 1 year sooner and deal with issues then wait until the product is perfect. Others may have a different opinion and therefore choose not to be an early adopter.

One other thing might be that this pealing of the reflectix may be a single pad issue or a bad batch pf reflectix neither of which would have shown up in an extended beta. They seem to have dealt with the leaking pad problem by improving QC.

For me this is an acceptable response and buisness plan.

David and Greg, I'm kind of in the middle between the two of you. I originally tried to purchase the old NeoAir (in the infamous Backwoods.com sale in January), but because of a shipping mix-up, Backwoods replaced the pads that never arrived with the new XLites because they no longer had the old ones in stock. I knew going in that there could be issues, but I figured I could trust Cascade Designs customer service.

That said, I would prefer some of these issues to be resolved sooner. My pad might have a bad batch of aluminization on the baffles, but better beta testing might have discovered that issue (it's not like I've actually used the pad very much). I knew the risks ahead of time, and I chose to deal with the possible fallout, which I am now. I still wish the initial quality was better, even if I know that CD will figure out--eventually.

"Well, what you learn in first year economics is to not generalize about supply and demand without understanding the concepts. I am missing as much as you because you do not have any figures to support your claim."

Clearly then, you need to do a lot of reviewing.

"Clearly then, you need to do a lot of reviewing."

I have a Masters in Economics. But since you are being deliberately beligerant and antagonistic about concepts that may excape you, maybe you should just stick with taking pictures.

"I have a Masters in Economics. But since you are being deliberately beligerant and antagonistic about concepts that may excape you, maybe you should just stick with taking pictures."

I guess I shouldn't have expected any better. Oh well, it's not my loss.

This is nonsense. You are not "beta testers" you are consumers. You do not have the metrics to perform beta testing on these products.

Just because the reflective surface is peeling off a bit doesn't mean the pad isn't meeting the advertised "R" parameters or that CD isn't aware of this happening. That's something that you as a consumer have assumed to be an issue and because customer service is excellent at CD, they give you a new pad to keep you happy, it's not an admission of a problem.

A leaky pad is obviously a problem and we as consumers can evaluate that but until you have the equipment to measure "R" value loss, making the assumption that the pad is failing may be a false assumption. It may be that the "R" value is increased by only .5% by coating the baffles with a reflective coating. If you are only losing 10% of the coating then the R value is not impacted significantly. My point is that you don't know the design parameters so how do you know it's a failure.

I think the poor design decision was that Cascade Designs made the pad transparent. If they had made the pad solid you wouldn't perceive a problem until you started to get cold when you believed the pad should be sufficient to keep you warm.

I remember hearing the same kind of complaint about the Montbell stretch bags. Montbell used a translucent material that allowed you to see the distribution of the down. If the down didn't appear to be packed into the tubes, many users thought they were under-filled. It's easy to shift the down around in these bags and many people like to be able to do that (I do) so is this a design feature or a flaw? Mine has tested accurate to it's rating but I can see thin spots in the down distribution and occasionally shake the bag to redistribute the down. Do I think other sleeping bags suffer from this problem as well... of course, but you just can't see it happen.

Don't assume you know the design parameters, you don't.

"I have a Masters in Economics. But since you are being deliberately beligerant and antagonistic about concepts that may excape you, maybe you should just stick with taking pictures."

Geez David.

Ryan

People have been so intolerant and hostile lately on so many threads.I try to avoid all the fighting but it has been difficult.

Ryan - yes, that was harsh.

However, when trying to discuss and debate and receiving direct responses like:

"I guess I shouldn't have expected any better"

"Clearly then, you need to do a lot of reviewing."

"You're missing a lot, apparently."

"I have something called "ears" and I talk to folks."

"Hyperbole isn't a good debating tactic. Neither is putting words in someone else's mouth."

I take it as antagonistic.

Regardless, I have provided my perspective and this will be all that I say about the matter on this thread.

Most of those comments you quoted were in response to some pretty hefty salvos you launched yourself. Either way, I do appreciate you taking the high road on your last post. Some of these threads are really wearing on me lately.

Ryan

@Ryan - I need a hike!

I'm a Division Manager in charge of 49 people!! That is very important!! That is very important!! You don't talk to me like that!! People are scared of me!!
I drive a Dodge Stratus!! I can do 100 push-ups in twenty minutes!!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/3526/saturday-night-live-family-dinner

again whether the item costs a lot or not isn't necessarily an accurate way to judge the quality. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy their items, especially the very newest things when they first come out. Lastly they have superb warranty that covers any issues. If you don't like that is how they operate take your business elsewhere.

Well said!

"I drive a Dodge Stratus!!"

Didn't learn the first time or just a sucker for punishment.

boring...*yawn.

Jeff, I am sure there are some things you could sell in Gear Swap.

did a loop in mill ck wilderness, ochoco mnts Oregont his weekend. Sunday morning I look at my pad in the sunlight and the aluminized content was worn off/degraded greatly around the perimeter of the pad more or less from top to bottom. Seemed to coincide with where any moisture condensed on the edges where it was closer to cold air?

will contact cascade designs. All Neo-Air pads may look just like this...we just have no idea if so