Thanks. I would be very interested in what you find out. I'm seriously not sure whether or not to give another Xlite a try.

Ross, when they emailed me back, it didn't sound too likely that this was an option. It sounds like they are leaving the All Season and the Trekker in rectangular shape, and the "X" pads are mummy cut... In my opinion, they should have cut the Trekker and kept the original... Anyway, here is a write up I did on it, including the response email I got:

http://sticksblog.com/2012/04/07/fare-the-well-original-neoair/

As of right now, he informed me that if the original NeoAirs were to fail, then they will replace it with an XLite... :(

(Glad to hear that I am not the only one that will miss the rectangular cut pads...)

Edited by Stick on 04/30/2012 18:07:47 MDT.

I believe that condensation may be the culprit to the reflective stuff pealing/degrading. I took X-Lite up twice this winter and found that the vapor from my breath caused moisture to condense inside which seemed to affect the area near the valve. Also, my pad was tightly positioned against one of the sidewalls of the tent which caused condensation to form on that side. Sense then, about 3 inches of that reflective layer has not been reflective on that side along the entire length.

Matthew, I'll admit that condensation was my first thought concerning the loss of the aluminization. But, here are a few of things that make me think differently:

1. The pad clearly lost the coating in the middle, where I saw no condensation developing the few times I've blown it up (no more than 4-5 times since I purchased the pad).

2. The loss around the valve can just as easily be explained by the extra handling that area of the pad receives during the inflation/deflation and adjustment processes.

3. The delamination is pretty extreme along the edges as well, not consistent with what I saw to be the (very minor but visible) condensation when examining the pad after a night's sleep in the cold.

Of course, you could be right. That still doesn't make the issue any less pertinent. Clearly the pad is meant to include the possibility that people will blow it up by mouth. If it can't handle minor condensation from breath over 1 or 2 nights total (not just in a row), that is a serious issue.

Sorry if I missed this if it was already stated but is this going to be covered via the warranty? I just bought one at the end of March from MEC.

mec will take care of you should something happen regardless

Well, I heard back from Cascade Designs, and they have offered to replace the pad for me .

I figure that I'll stick with the XLite for now. I will keep an eye out for this problem, and should the pad degrade on a trip, it's May and I won't need the higher R-value until the fall.

The rep didn't say much else, so I will try to follow up with some questions.

I have already heard back from the rep that responded to my customer service query. I had a response in my inbox in less than 20 minutes.

He has not heard of any kind of production stoppage to correct any problems on the pad, and in fact said that they were behind on filling their orders (I think most of us here already realized that). He also made it clear that Cascade Designs would take care of this problem, sending me as many replacement pads as necessary until they had the issue resolved. My pad is the first that has been brought to his attention with this specific problem, so it is probably too early to say how CD will address it.

Anyway, I am extremely pleased with the customer service response, and I think I'm comfortable sticking with a replacement XLite for the time being. I'll probably pick up a Ridgerest for the interim, something I'll want for winter camping regardless.

They had initial quality issues with the original NeoAir - mostly leaks and delamination of baffles. I am not surprised that they are having potential issues with this new pad as well. It takes them a while to work the kinks out but I dislike them using the general public as a trial group.

On a long trip with quality issues, customer service is irrelevant.

On the other hand Cascade Designs is really pushing the UL envelope for a comfortable sleep pad. So even if they are using us as Beta testers their new technology they have brought in should be commended. At some point use from a small number of testers will only catch so many of the problems. They need to be field tested in large numbers to really find any systemic issues.

Using the general public for that and providing a good warrenty is a good way for us to get the product in our hands a year earlier.

We should have a plan to not die if any piece of equipment fails. For example in winter you should have a plan to survive if your sleeping pad fails or else you shouldn't carry an inflatable pad. Same with any component of gear.

The best way to have beta testers is to give them the goods for free and not charge over $150 for failure. We obviously have a different definition of 'acceptable liability.'

|On a long trip with quality issues, customer service is irrelevant.

I agree but by the statistics of activity by the general public long trips are not the majority, but practically the exception when it comes to outdoor pursuits. Secondly the onus is really on the user to thoroughly test their gear before a serious endeavor, both subjective (footwear fit) and objective (sleeping pad durability).

Using the general public as a trial group seems like the best way to tweak any designs. At that point they've already honed the product to the point that they aren't getting some absurdly high failure rate.. ie, the product will work for the majority of people.

Cascade Designs doesn't force anyone to be beta testers, that is your choice. Same goes with the first year of a new model car..

all air mats have issues at some point or another ... just look at the POE fun ...

you dont want the possibiity of a failure? ... get a ridgerest or another foamy ... which is why many mountaineers use em ...

"The best way to have beta testers is to give them the goods for free and not charge over $150 for failure. We obviously have a different definition of 'acceptable liability.'"

I think you're missing something here, though. Cascade Designs is having trouble keeping up with demand, but they're not getting overwhelmed with returns. REI would be discouraging people from buying Neoair pads if they were getting a lot of returns on them, but they aren't.

Their defect rate might be higher than we'd like, but so far it's nowhere near to high enough to fit into your definition of a beta test.

That said, if there were a lot of failures in their pads, I'd agree with you, but they'd also be in a world of financial hurt if they were standing behind a poorly QA'd product.

No - not missing anything. There are two parts to the equation: supply and demand. You say that they are having trouble keeping up with demand but we obviously have no idea how many they initially produced so saying the items are in high demand isn't really true (not to mention the local MEC has a ton of them for sale).

"but they're not getting overwhelmed with returns. REI would be discouraging people from buying Neoair pads if they were getting a lot of returns on them, but they aren't."

Do you work for REI or MSR / Cascade Designs? How could you possibly know this?

"That said, if there were a lot of failures in their pads, I'd agree with you, but they'd also be in a world of financial hurt if they were standing behind a poorly QA'd product."

Confused by this. Again, without knowing how many they have produced thus far and since it has only been a couple of months on the market, I can't see how you could possibly make this statement. Give the users some time. On these forums alone there have been some failures, including leaks after a use or two. I also don't think that one product line would bury the company from a financial perspective.

FWIW, there were a LOT of posted failures of the original NeoAir before they got control of their QC.

do you have numbers for neo-air returns etc?
your relative 'a lot of posts' in the forum is a pretty unsolid number. So 50 people here? Is that uniform failure, representative of broad population? etc

the primary thing is you never, ever, have to 'beta test' for this company, so I don't really see what the problem is. people buy cars the first year they come out.

Edited by water- on 05/01/2012 16:19:08 MDT.

" Secondly the onus is really on the user to thoroughly test their gear before a serious endeavor, both subjective (footwear fit) and objective (sleeping pad durability)."

I really disagree with this, Matt. The pads are very expensive and suggest long term quality regardless if you are a weekend warrior or a week long trekker. Using the term 'serious endeavor' is a misnomer in this case because there are failures when using the pads the first night. Should we expect failures only with 'serious endeavors?'

If the product has been tested to do it's intended job, then failure will not occur when used in the manner that the product was intended for. What constitutes failure in this case? Failure when testing in a controlled environment in, say, one's backyard? Or failure on day 5 into a 10 day trip 200 miles from civilization after it was 'thoroughly tested' in the backyard?

I also don't like your first year of a new model car analogy. I have never had a new car completely fail after driving it for a day. I have never been stranded. And I have never had a failure that meant I could not get it fixed the same or next day. A sleeping pad is a different animal.

"do you have numbers for neo-air returns etc?
your relative 'a lot of posts' in the forum is a pretty unsolid number. So 50 people here? Is that uniform failure, representative of broad population? etc"

This was my point in my previous post. We don't HAVE THE NUMBERS.

Stop with the car analogy - it is really quite wrong.

Sorry I will never agree with premise that the cost of something correlates to durability or quality as a product. Surely a full blown failure on night 1 with a new product is unacceptable. I only suggest one test their gear as best they can prior to a trip where the failure of it could be disastrous. Thus it is in one's interest to test an item in real-usage conditions as best as possible in time frame/setting with lower consequences and have a backup (foam pad?) in case of failure. per your example, if you are on a 10 day trip and have managed to find a location 200 miles from civilization (other than alaska or NWT let me know where..) the onus is on you for due diligence of your gear, and a backyard test is probably a low bar to test one's system.

BD debuted stainless steel crampons recently and there has been some serious hubub about the front point failure. If I was planning a greater range expedition or a seriously challenging route in my backyard, I'd be really hesitant to use them. If I was going up the south side of Mt. Hood as a usual thing for me, I'd be fine to use them.

As for the first year car analogy, I ended up with a first year dodge neon (no direct choice of my own) and let me tell you, many, many times was I left stranded, and many times requiring repairs that took longer than a day to complete. No it didnt die the first day off the lot but it didn't have longevity or reliability either. The mechanic I had generally didn't speak well of the car and indicated I wasn't alone in my problems. This was something that cost many thousands of dollars, not hundred or two hundred dollar piece of plastic intended for camping.

At the end of the day if you see thermarest/CD behaving in that they use full-paying customers as fullon beta testers, they have every right to do this with or without their warranty as you have ever choice in the world to spend the money or not on the newest model that comes out. Which is more likely, that they do really crappy QC and totally let the end users beta test and work from that, or that they try to get to some level of success (70, 80, 90, 95%?) and then move from then? Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. The later sounds much more plausible.

i guess thats all i have to say. to complain about what a company does when the company is generally speaking positive and attempting to push the envelope for light weight/performance, especially with the wonderful warranty they have, doesn't seem like they are hanging someone out to dry.

apologies for the thread drift. I'll keep an eye on my xlite this spring/summer and see if I notice any durability issues.

Edited by water- on 05/01/2012 16:41:14 MDT.

"No - not missing anything. There are two parts to the equation: supply and demand. You say that they are having trouble keeping up with demand but we obviously have no idea how many they initially produced so saying the items are in high demand isn't really true (not to mention the local MEC has a ton of them for sale). "

You're missing a lot, apparently.

"Do you work for REI or MSR / Cascade Designs? How could you possibly know this?"

I have something called "ears" and I talk to folks. One reason I like REI is that their staff are pretty open about this sort of thing -- they're not paid on commission, so they have an incentive to sell customers the right thing to keep returns down. Some of their reps have told me that when they have products with high return rates, they stop selling them.

"Confused by this. Again, without knowing how many they have produced thus far and since it has only been a couple of months on the market, I can't see how you could possibly make this statement."

Various models of Neoairs have been on the market for a couple of years now, and I've run into quite a few people who love them on the trails.

"Give the users some time. On these forums alone there have been some failures, including leaks after a use or two. I also don't think that one product line would bury the company from a financial perspective."

Hyperbole isn't a good debating tactic. Neither is putting words in someone else's mouth.

"FWIW, there were a LOT of posted failures of the original NeoAir before they got control of their QC."

I know. And it's pretty obvious that they've put quite a bit of effort into fixing that mistake, whatever the cause.