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Addie Bedford
(addiebedford) - MLife

Locale: Montana
The Perils of Certainty on 04/24/2012 14:51:14 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

The Perils of Certainty

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
I'd laugh but... on 04/24/2012 16:12:30 MDT Print View

Funny Ken. I can't laugh at you because I've don the same thing myself and I've seen other people do it. We got ourselves good and lost in Alaska once and spent a lovely day bushwacking through alders.
Good lesson to use your head and check the map any time things don't make sense.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
The Perils of Certainty on 04/24/2012 19:01:24 MDT Print View

Excellent article! Yes, it's funny, but I'm sure most of us have done something similar at one time or another! Your descriptions are so vivid--as I read, I myself was enjoying the stroll down the trail, the good company and the perfect autumn day!

On a local hiking forum earlier today, a poster asked about learning orienteering skills. I mentioned a number of non-map-and-compass navigation skills, such as paying attention to landmarks and looking at the back trail at every intersection. Since this is a free article, I just posted a link to your article on the thread in the local forum, since it's so appropriate to that topic. (Who knows, it might bring in a few members!)

Over the years I also have made a few interesting "detours," including at one point traveling a trail in the wrong direction!

Thank you for overcoming what must have been considerable embarrassment to provide us all with a great reminder!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
certainty on 04/25/2012 08:09:49 MDT Print View

more than once ive went up the way i "knew" was right on a climb and ended up having to come back down

the human mind is very narrow ... once its decided on something, its hard to admit error ...

you have to be honest with yourself ... the mountain doesnt care how "right" you think you are ... itll still kill you all the same

Michael Ray
(topshot) - MLife

Locale: Midwest
Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/25/2012 11:51:27 MDT Print View

Ken,
Is this essentially how you became "misplaced" on the AT 3 years ago? I never did see your side of the story of what occurred. You can PM if you wish. Thanks.

Bradley Danyluk
(dasbin) - MLife
Re: certainty on 04/25/2012 11:52:42 MDT Print View

An excellent argument for trying to apply evidence-based reasoning to all actions and beliefs we hold.

"The mountain doesn't care how "right" you think you are"

Great point. Just like everything in the universe, it doesn't matter how strong your beliefs are. They have no bearing on anything at all except inside your own head. If we could only learn from "the mountain's" hard lessons and apply it wherever possible. Absolute certainty is never possible, but we have developed great systems of thinking for observation and verification that we can utilize (when we decide to apply the effort) to determine what is more likely and what is less likely to be true.

Edited by dasbin on 04/25/2012 11:56:43 MDT.

Gregory Topf
(notoriousGRT) - MLife

Locale: PNW / Switzerland
never ever... on 04/25/2012 11:56:21 MDT Print View

Never stop thinking when you're out there. In the best case scenario you will lose only time.

Kenneth Carter
(docbackpacker) - MLife

Locale: Midwestern United States
Thank you on 04/25/2012 12:00:10 MDT Print View

Ken,

Thank you for an enjoyable and beneficial article! Though I'm a new BPL life member, I'm really glad you made this article available for all. Yes, it might bring in new members, and even more importantly it has the potential to avert suffering, some mild, some serious. In some circumstances, the perspective you've promoted could save a life. I expect your funny real life example will do more good than any number of stern, alarmist warnings. True stories have power.

By the way, I, too, have found myself unexpectedly "revisiting" a place where the unexpected familiarity turned out to be no coincidence. I don't cut switchbacks, but other "shortcuts" have sometimes cost me buckets of time.

Particularly because I'm currently preparing for an upcoming multi-day solo backpacking trip, I needed to hear what you had to say. I'm grateful for the reminder--a gentle, humorous, clear, and memorable one. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Ken Carter

Patricia Combee
(Trailfrog) - F

Locale: Northeast/Southeast your call
RE: The perils of certainty on 04/25/2012 16:59:39 MDT Print View

I ain't laughing. I was hunting a squirrels several years ago in my "home woods". I came to the road I was expecting, but I knew I had meandered a bit, so I took a look at my compass for North, since that was the way I wanted to go. But the compass said north was in a direction I was pretty sure was not right. "Darn compass, must be broken!" So I went the opposite direction; Yep, I should have went the direction the darn broken compass said was north. I walked a few extra miles, but no harm done. I was lucky, the weather could have turned bad, but I did have 3 nice squirrels and an apple to eat and water was close by. It would have been an uncomfortable night, but I probably would have been okay.

So, I can easily see how you got turned around. I expect it has happened to most folks that play in the outdoors.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Mr Magoo in the Backwoods on 04/25/2012 17:04:33 MDT Print View

I think Ken needs to write under the Pen Name of Mr Magoo.

Then put all his "mis-adventures" in a book called "Mr Magoo in the Backwoods" Earn some money and hire a guide when he goes out his front door.

As someone named Bilboo once said "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, ..."

Edited by bfornshell on 04/25/2012 22:24:09 MDT.

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
Been There, Done That on 04/26/2012 03:51:37 MDT Print View

My problem was that I assumed my compass was broken. I only confirmed that I was going the wrong direction was when I ran into another hiker.

It shocked me to the point that I just sat down and had think about it for a while.

scott Nelson
(nlsscott) - MLife

Locale: So. Calif.
All who wander are not lost, but they could be... on 04/26/2012 09:11:30 MDT Print View

I got good and lost using an old map where the road had been extended since publication. The trailhead I started at was several miles west of my assumed start. I didn't realize it until I came to a big river "going the wrong direction" around noon. That's when I pulled out the map and vowed to learn how to use that compas thing I had buried in my pack.- Scott

Cameron Phillips
(Jean-Guille) - F

Locale: Southern California
Re: Mr Magoo in the Backwoods on 04/26/2012 12:56:08 MDT Print View

“Short cuts make for long delays.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

Kenneth Knight
(kenknight) - MLife

Locale: SE Michigan
Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/26/2012 13:56:40 MDT Print View

Michael, no this is a completely different situation than what you are referring too. I'm not going to get into the details of what happened back then. It's not really relevant to the reasons I wrote this article.

As many have already commented this kind o thing can, and does, happen to lots of people.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/26/2012 16:59:09 MDT Print View

While most everyone will get turned around on trips, especially when we have not hiked the area before, to completely end back at the starting point and missing two huge landmarks (bridge and a cabin) is being totally oblivious to ones surroundings. It is a reminder to learn about awareness of ones surroundings (maps, landmarks passed) and not follow a path just because it is in front of you.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=20748&skip_to_post=168488#168488

Inaki Diaz de Etura
(inaki) - MLife

Locale: Iberia highlands
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/27/2012 01:46:50 MDT Print View

> to completely end back at the starting point and missing two huge landmarks (bridge and a cabin) is being totally oblivious to ones surroundings

Hiking in company is a huge factor here, particularly if the hikers are keeping some kind of conversation, as it seems to be the case for Ken as per the description in the article. Attention naturally drifts away from the surroundings and it gets surprisingly easy to get to a place (be it the intended destination or not) without knowing how you got there.

Rakesh Malik
(Tamerlin)

Locale: Cascadia
Re: RE: The perils of certainty on 04/27/2012 13:06:46 MDT Print View

"But the compass said north was in a direction I was pretty sure was not right. "Darn compass, must be broken!""

It's amazing how common that is. It's sometimes difficult to overcome one's convictions, even when the real world slaps you in the face with facts counter-indicating them.

Rakesh Malik
(Tamerlin)

Locale: Cascadia
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/27/2012 13:12:26 MDT Print View

"Hiking in company is a huge factor here, particularly if the hikers are keeping some kind of conversation, as it seems to be the case for Ken as per the description in the article."

Being a photographer has turned out to be a huge asset in this regard. Research "songlines" or "dreaming tracks" for why, if you're curious... it's a technique for building an internal map by using stories about your environment. When I learned about this, I started using it, but I found that because I pay a lot of attention to the composition, angle of light, shapes and textures of objects when I set up a shot, it serves the same purpose for me as a story. I end up remembering routes a lot better than most people I hike with as a result.

This is partly a response to nearly getting lost in Shenandoah National Park once when I was a newbie hiker, though that was due to missing a turn (I saw the marker, but didn't recognize the name of the trail).

And watching a pair of fools I was hiking with once get lost in conversation, start out pretty far ahead of me, and just start walking... I was tempted to let them wander and see how long it took for them to realize that the only person in the group who knew the route wasn't behind them anymore, but instead I gave them a shout.

Tom Clark
(TomClark) - MLife

Locale: East Coast
Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/29/2012 08:35:01 MDT Print View

Good reminders!

Brett Tucker
(blister-free) - F

Locale: Puertecito ruins
The Perils of Certainty on 04/29/2012 20:15:01 MDT Print View

Many moons ago, at the age of 13, I went on a long day hike with a church group to a local woodland here in New England. The trail network winds around a large pond, generally near its perimeter, while a network of dirt roads threads the territory further beyond. I'd visited the area before, though I'd never before hiked the full loop that was on the day's agenda. Before long, another hiker about my age and I got out ahead of the main group, by our own choosing and without any resistance from the adult members of the party. It shouldn't have mattered, given that the trails were all well marked and we meant no mayhem. However, two factors came into play that proved to be game-changing that autumn day. The first was a category 1 hurricane which had hit the area several weeks prior. The second was my blinding sense of certainty that I knew an area of such size and scope that, in reality, no 13 year old kid could possibly grasp.

When we came to an area of heavy blowdown along the trail, conveniently there was a good dirt road running parallel to it. And so I quickly convinced myself and my hiking partner, out of sight or communication with the rest of the group, that we would leave the trail and instead hike the road. After all, the road would do much as the trail, I was certain, and both would end up back at the trailhead after circumnavigating the pond.

The road eventually reached a fork, and we went left, certain as I was - despite the pond no longer being in view - that a "series of lefts" would equate with a counter-clockwise loop around it. On and on we followed this road, hour upon hour, mile after mile, until the kid at my side no longer trusted my judgment that we were in fact bound for home base. "Not to worry" I assured him, as the road, however weary we were, was surely quicker than following the thicketed trail. Although by now pangs of self-doubt had begun welling up within me as well, dismissible mainly by an understanding that "we had come too far now to turn around." When at last we saw a sign welcoming us... to a different pond!, I realized the gravity of the circumstances. I knew at once just how far off track I'd taken us. My cavalier sense of ease over matters of navigation had now swung 180 degrees to notions of an unbridgeable, unresolvable impasse between our current location and our intended destination. And while reality was squarely in the middle of these two extremes, I panicked. I cried. And I worried the heck out of my hiking partner, who had been going along for the proverbial ride from the start and was now left merely to read my emotional cues and to fear whatever I feared.

Somehow though, from the throes of panic, a moment of extreme clarity emerged, a sense of being on auto-pilot and of knowing exactly what we had to do to ensure our safety. For this would be the day a young boy would learn of his survival instinct, what it felt like to have fear drive fear away in order to find a way out of harm's way. Against all odds, and without a hint of reservation from a naturally shy child, I flagged down a passing vehicle - improbably, a truck hauling a large horse trailer - and asked for a ride. Within an instant I was poised atop the truck bed trying to persuade my partner to join me, but he refused to do it. "My mom told me never to hitchhike," he explained resolutely. Mine most likely had as well, but running on adrenaline I was now blind to anything other than The Plan of Escape, and this, my survival auto-pilot had convinced me, was that plan unfolding. Ultimately the driver agreed to call park headquarters and we managed a more sobering trip back to our proper trailhead. By now I felt guilty and ashamed of the situation I had created, and to his credit the park ranger did his best to ensure those emotions would stick with me for a good while.

To our surprise, we arrived back at the vehicles before the rest of the party, and for a time we made like we'd keep our misadventure to ourselves. But of course with such a great story to share and the endorphins flying, that oath didn't last long and we were duly chastised later that evening. The group leaders were naturally concerned for our safety, and now angry with us, and responded with a toughened policy of staying together on future outings (we two were banned from any other hikes that fall). I learned, much like Ken on the North Country Trail, about the perils of certainty, the consequences of poor decision-making, and of the need to be situationally aware at all times, most especially when you lack a solid skill set as was the case for me back then. I also discovered something pretty incredible lurking inside of me, inside each of us, that rushes to our defense in a time of need, if only we can find a way to use it to our best advantage.

Edited by blister-free on 04/29/2012 21:52:24 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/29/2012 20:38:35 MDT Print View

Has anyone ever had a compass that was wrong? I did once while doing some map work. Later discovered that the rocks in the area I was exploring had a high iron content. Picked the compass up off the rock and it swung around quite a bit. Other than that instance of user error I have never had an issue. I do keep a little button compass as a backup. Just in case.

Agree that this is a post trip report. Always tomorrow to see what surprises are in store.

Edited by kthompson on 04/30/2012 06:57:44 MDT.

Kevin Babione
(KBabione) - MLife

Locale: Pennsylvania
The Perils of Certainty - Social Inattention on 04/30/2012 06:44:51 MDT Print View

I enjoyed reading this article but can't shake the feeling that this would have made a good "Post-Trip" thread instead of eating up 50% of the quite valuable weekly article space.

With that said, I've found that each time I wander off the trail or miss a turn-off I can trace it back to where the trail was wide enough for us to hike side-by-side for a change instead of the more common single-file. I'm usually on trails in Pennsylvania and they are generally well marked. If we're on a forest road for a stretch and we can walk next to each other we start talking about the weather, the hike, the fauna...All the things you think about while hiking but can't share because you're more or less by yourself.

My most frustrating example of this was on the Allegheny Front Trail - we had just crossed over a road and were on a very steep downhill jeep track chatting away. We had gone almost 1/2 mile before we realized that we didn't see any trail markers anymore. It was a pretty brutal climb back up to where the trail turned off the jeep track and back up the mountain - all unnecessary and caused by simple "social inattention."

Normally while hiking I'm in my own zone...I find that I most often lead our group and it seems second nature to keep track of the trail markers and when I saw the last one. Some PA trails are so well marked that you can usually see multiple markers while standing in one spot (like the AT). On other trails (the Mid State Trail comes to mind) the markers are fewer and further apart.

Kathleen B
(rosierabbit) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Perils of Iron in the Rock on 04/30/2012 19:12:00 MDT Print View

Ken - I was on an unnamed peak with a group years ago in the Teanaway area in Washington. We were all getting wildly different readings as we were trying to identify different peaks. Several of us held our compasses out in front of us and swung them back and forth. The needle persisted in pointing to the peak we were on. Since we were near a peak named Iron Mountain, we realized we were in an area of iron-rich rock. It was like being on our own personal north pole. The same thing happened to me this summer in the same area, but on another peak.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:16:51 MDT Print View

"Has anyone ever had a compass that was wrong?"

I have one tiny compass that is consistently 120 degrees off from north. It was a cheapie, so that explains a few things. I haven't figured out a good way to use it as a joke on a friend. All of my good compasses are fairly accurate, even when they get an air bubble inside the liquid capsule.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:23:22 MDT Print View

"Good" compasses get air bubbles?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:43:22 MDT Print View

" "Good" compasses get air bubbles?"

Not normally. However, I have had some really expensive compasses that got flexed or stepped on or otherwise abused, and the liquid capsule got torqued enough that an air bubble grew in there.

Currently, I don't use any compasses much while backpacking, but I carry one small one just to avoid the embarrassment of getting lost someday.

Remember, thirty years ago that compass skill was a big deal.

--B.G.--

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:45:29 MDT Print View

I've encountered this on Ebay. Some sellers relate that compasses that get shipped via Airmail develop bubbles.All I can say is that stuff I bought on the ground in China eventually developed bubbles.I can't say for sure if it was after I flew home? There is also a tendency of wrist compasses on watchbands to tend to orient towards your watch. Very unnerving if you haven't tested things out in a known environment. Also look at Suunto totally dropping the Clipper which has at least 3 generic versions vs . their M-9 at a much higher price point. When in doubt maybe 2 compasses and isolate at least 1 away from your watch or anything metal camera etc? My current plan.

Edited by Meander on 04/30/2012 19:48:14 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:50:12 MDT Print View

My "good" compass doesn't have liquid in it. Maybe liquid compasses are "not so good?"

:)

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Perils of Certainty on 04/30/2012 19:52:52 MDT Print View

Probably , but then those who dive are in a much bigger fix? That being darkness and dwindling time?

Edited by Meander on 04/30/2012 20:07:15 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Compasses on 04/30/2012 19:57:00 MDT Print View

Once in Colorado we found a compass that was perfectly backwards. The red end of the needle pointed south when it was supposed to point north. I kept it hidden when I was doing compass courses with kids. I was going to give it to some poor kid but I never felt mean enough. I think it was an error in the painting because it was always 180 degrees off.

Tjaard Breeuwer
(Tjaard) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota, USA
Broken GPS on 05/01/2012 07:51:09 MDT Print View

I once had one of those 'broken' gps's showing me to be moving in the opposite direction of what I knew to be true.... As well as a fair share of maps with 'misprints'....

Kendall Clement
(socalpacker) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
RE: "The Perils of Certainty" on 05/09/2012 11:48:04 MDT Print View

Ken,

Thank you for sharing your experience. Like some the of the others, I've also had this happen to me. :)

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
Re The Perils of Certainty on 08/06/2012 17:44:52 MDT Print View

I've witnessed this happen before where people ignore their GPS, or the location of the sun, because they are certain they know which direction they're going. My husband was so sure on a trip last winter that he ignored me telling him we were headed North instead of South for a half hour, until he finally said to me, "We're going the wrong way, aren't we?". Haha. Myself, I have one of the worst senses of direction ever, so I use a GPS or compass always.

chris Nelson
(Nel250)

Locale: San Francisco
Re: Re The Perils of Certainty on 08/06/2012 18:02:42 MDT Print View

Thanks for sharing the story.

Just a month a go in Emigrant I tried to take a "Short cut" it was only a 1/4 mile or so off trail but took me over an hour to realize I was off course and find my way back to the trail.

So I totaly agree with Cameron
“Short cuts make for long delays.”

Edited by Nel250 on 08/06/2012 18:04:09 MDT.