Hi James, and all

Right now I am discussing the production of my designs with a large outdoors gear company. NO further details yet, and NO deadlines either. We are talking, but NO promises. However,

> I am afraid that much of the basic design will be lost if it does go comercial.
> Production is not ammenable to a lot of the details that Roger presents.
Commercialisation will ONLY go ahead if all the important details of the design are preserved. That is not a negotiable point for me. Fortunately, that does not seem to be a problem for the other party. Yes, they are aiming at the high end - but the American market is still huge.

Will it happen? Dunno.

Cheers

I was curious if you ever thought about selling plans for make-it-yourself tents (with an NDA if you plan on producing them commercially) I really like my hilleberg but there seems like there are many areas that the weight could be reduced.


Thanks for the aluminized pe recommendation...I had not thought of that previously.

Cheers!

Hi Miles

> selling plans for make-it-yourself tents
For the future.

Cheers

Roger,
Yeah. "Well it might be a little easier to manufacture if we..." You retain control of production, they can still steal your ideas, though. No matter...just come up with a better one, unless they also purchase your market share.
I wish you the best of luck in any discussions. Tunnel tents are just real good for bad weather.

Hi James

Yeah, I know. I'll wait and see.

Cheers

Rather than answer all the emails I recieved, and just to be clear for the future. I will NOT be building rodgers tunnel tent, I never was going to. The back story on this, is that there was a bet between me and others in the industry, about these, and other recent "articles". I made some claims, and was challenged, so a bet was proposed. Needless to say, I made an easy $50 bucks.

You're teasing us

What were your claims and what was the bet?

Hi Josh

As an interested party in this, details?
And do I get a percentage?

Cheers

Too bad it was just a bet! I sure fell for it! I personally think that a "cottage" manufacturer may be the only way to go to get the lighter materials, etc. However, if Roger is negotiating with the larger outfit works out, that's fine! I may not ever get one, but would love to have the option if the tents I'm trying don't survive the Wind Rivers!

Edited by hikinggranny on 04/21/2012 15:19:29 MDT.

Roger, would you say the primary purpose of the double fabric wall in winter is structure or insulation? Are both about equal? If insulation, why is a double wall better than an equivalent weight in extra sleeping bag/quilt insulation?

Obviously the double wall is important for severe winter weather, just curious as to why.

Details of the bet: After a fine string of literary gems from BPL, I quiped to some one else in the industry that this "state of the market report" was nothing more than a product launch. I was then called paranoid and a few other things. So I said that I could prove it, and the bet was made. "so roger, you are cool with me building your tent, right?" Was a nice one liner as it was dual purposed.

No rodger you do not get a cut. I will how ever be sending you a bill for advertising stunts. Dont worry BPL readers, my services are not dependant on products being sold.

Are we going to see some content between the commercials over here, its getting pretty stagnant.

Josh, folks around here have wanted to get hold of one of Roger's homemade tents for years (or at least for the 6 years since I started lurking on this site)! If this SOTM report manages to get them into production for those who've been salivating all this time, so much the better!

And if it doesn't, maybe it will at least encourage folks to at least consider tunnel tents and, perhaps, persuade some overseas manufacturers to sell some in the US. Or maybe some of our wonderful "cottage" manufacturers will come up with one!

Hi David

> the primary purpose of the double fabric wall in winter is structure or insulation?
Well, my single skin tunnel tent has a bathtub groundsheet anchored to the fly via netting, so I think I could say that it has essentially the same techncial structure as my double-skin winter tent.

That leaves insulation. Yes, the inner tent does provide some insulation, in several ways:
* The wind-resistent fabric blocks cold wind from blowing across my face and my quilt. I think this is a very significant benefit.
* The DWR-treated inner tent can block condensation falling off the fly from hitting my quilt: it runs down the outside of the inner tent.
* The wind-resistent inner tent blocks spindrift from reaching me, my quilt and my gear.

> why is a double wall better than an equivalent weight in extra sleeping bag/quilt insulation?
The latter two reasons above answer that one. It's about preventing moisture from reaching my gear.

Cheers

Being Scandinavian I have grown up with tunnel tents. I have always wondered why Americans prefer geodesic tents. The weather is more extreme in many parts of the US than in Norway. Nearby all Norwegian explorers uses tunnel tents on trips to the Arctic and Antarctic, and in the mountains at home. American interest in ultra light backpacking is also strange (Ok, it's what this forum is about). Sturdiness and the ability to cope with extreme weather are essential, especially fore tents.

I find Coffin's two article about tunnel tents interesting. It’s impressing that Coffin has made the two MYOG-tents himself, but I can not quite understand the belief that his design is revolutionary. The weight and space is impressive, but it’s also easy to spot weakness of the construction.

If you look at the two pictures of Confin's tent covered with snow its apparent that the design is not well suited for snow. My Helsport- and Hilleberg tent’s would had none problems with that amount of snow. Of course it’s possible that the tents were not well pinched. But fore me the design look not well balanced.

It's also nearby impossible to pinch a tent alone in strong winds with the “American” system of pole feet and eyelets, compared with “Scandinavian” design with webbing and ladder lock. OK! It’s heavier.

Sorry fore being critical, but I really think that many commercial tent producers do a better job than MYOG-entrepreneurs.

Hi Josh

> I quiped to some one else in the industry that this "state of the market report" was
> nothing more than a product launch.
Splat. No joy. Me, I think you lost the bet.

For those curious as to the origin of these articles, let me explain. Early in 2011 Will Rietveld, who was at that stage the Senior Editor for Gear Testing, suggested to me that I write a Survey and Tutorial on Tunnel Tents. This arose from an internal discussion about a pop-up tent a few of us were having. I agreed. Will organised most of the tents. I started testing and writing. The articles were delayed by a hard diks crash, but eventually got back on track.

My comment about discussions with a gear manufacturer seem to have been misunderstood. For a start, let me make one thing very clear, by quoting from the email sent to me on 12-Apr-2012 by the gear manufacturer:
"I just read your article in BPL and that prompted me to write."
This refers to Part 1 of this series. I started work on this series of article early in 2011 - around March I think. A year ago.

Sorry Josh, but if you were betting on it being a product launch, I think you lost the bet.

Cheers

Hi Bjørn

> I can not quite understand the belief that his design is revolutionary.
I don't think I suggested that anywhere. Before making my own I had a Macpac Olympus for many years, and I think that was clearly stated in the articles.

In fact, I find the whole idea of 'revolutionary designs' fairly silly. Most good gear designs are quite old; it's usually the 'new revolutionary designs' which turn out to be market failures. New materials - yes, and sometimes they lead significant technical improvements.

About the only market segment I can think of where new designs are significant improvements over things available 50 - 100 years ago are small canister stoves. And much of these improvements are due to technology. Oh well, that and we did not have those canisters (or that fuel) 100 years ago!

> two pictures of Confin's tent covered with snow its apparent that the design is not
> well suited for snow.
There are quite a few pictures of 'my tent' in the snow. Which ones did you have in mind?
Readers might bear in mind that we have spent many nights in the snow with our tents, and taken a lot of bad weather, and slept well.

> It's also nearby impossible to pinch a tent alone in strong winds with the
> “American” system of pole feet and eyelets, compared with “Scandinavian” design
> with webbing and ladder lock.
I am confused here. My tents and several from other countries around the world all use 'pole feet and eyelets', so I don't this is in any way an 'American' system.
And I have always managed to pitch my tent single-handed in bad weather.

Cheers

Hi Roger!
>I don't think I suggested that anywhere. Before making my own I had a Macpac Olympus for many years, and I think that was clearly stated in the articles .In fact, I find the whole idea of 'revolutionary designs' fairly silly.

No, you did not. But it seems to me that many of the positive comments on this Forum suggest so. I agree with your comments on `revolutionary designs`.

>There are quite a few pictures of 'my tent' in the snow. Which ones did you have in mind?
I think of the two pictures in the article were the snow covers the tent. Your tent is bending down, and the fabric is not stretched out properly. Of course it can be bad pitching.

>I am confused here. My tents and several from other countries around the world all use 'pole feet and eyelets', so I don't this is in any way an 'American' system.
And I have always managed to pitch my tent single-handed in bad weather.

The use of the terminology "American" and "Scandinavian" design is of course not the point. None of the "Scandinavian" tentmakers uses 'pole feet and eyelets': I used "American" because I don't know any American tent-maker who uses webbing and ladder lock.

My main point is that it’s easier to raise a tent in storm alone (metrological storm, 9-10 on Baufort`s scale) with the "Scandinavian"-design.

Edited by Fimax on 04/22/2012 17:36:41 MDT.

> I think of the two pictures in the article were the snow covers the tent. Your tent
> is bending down, and the fabric is not stretched out properly. Of course it can be
> bad pitching.
Ah - I think that the photos were of my (commercial) Macpac Olympus tent in heavy snow. Yes, they had got a bit slack during the night. They were taken a very long time ago, when I was maybe a bit less careful. In one case the tent was pitched in quite hot weather in the evening, and it suddenly snowed overnight. The cold weather made the nylon fabric expand, so the tent slackened off a bit.

"American" and "Scandinavian"
OK, understood. However, I must say that the pole foot and eyelet design works very well if done correctly. I have never had any problem with the pole foot slipping out. And it is lighter.

> My main point is that it’s easier to raise a tent in storm alone (metrological storm,
> 9-10 on Baufort`s scale) with the "Scandinavian"-design.
I will simply disagree here. I've tried both pole designs during our testing, and found no difference. It may be slightly easier when one end of the pole sleeve is closed, if you are on the right side of the tent.

Cheers

rodger

So when they asked you if they could build your tent, you gave them an answer? Interesting......I'll ask again, so rogder its cool if I build your tent right?

Given the particulars of the bet, I still won, its not being contested. No where did we discuss time frame and intent. It became a defact product launch, by intent, manipulation or otherwise. Given current details, and my supposed interest in the design, I'm very interested to see how this actually plays out. New bets wagered.

Hi Josh

It's a free world.

> New bets wagered.
Details? I am - we all are, curious.

Cheers