"With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much." Yep totally correct. However, if the roofline is too low you can be moving around inside apply a point force to the inner and then you get instant rain! The inner fabric is designed to hold back drips of condensation, not rain, and the force you can apply then lets the water in.

Its better to have a design with limits condensation, and look at location of the pitch.

I have never used the double-walled TT but at least with the LH Solo the mesh is located in a manner where if you bump it doesn't affect the outer and I have not seen condensation fall into the main tent even when in really humid conditions that would have really wetted and soaked through my other single-walled tents. I guess if you jolted a main support it could happen but the design of the tent helps to eliminate the problem.
I don't give opinion on anything I don't have first hand experience with and just try to help others make proper decisions.

The OP is tall. "Bump" if too low a shelter turns into more of a scrape right along and that definitely lets the damp stuff in (from first hand experience). It wasn't a problem for me til I upgraded to a thicker mat.

Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest.

So nobody is misinformed or scared of with disinformation the LH inner mesh has enough give that if you bump it water will not fall on you and I have tested it in really humid conditions that have formerly formed puddles on the floor with a single walled tent.

Edited by breeze on 04/17/2012 11:08:44 MDT.

There is always some disagreement about this subject. It seems that condensation always pops up as the main issue, with single walled shelters. Weight is always cited as the big down fall of double walled tents...carry *two* tents??? Most manufacturors have compromised with a waterproof layer and some sort of mesh inner on double walled shelters.

Modern shelters with fairly new silnylon will not leak when touched. However, after several years of using the same tent or tarp, they do. The silicone coating, not a simple spray on coating, will become damaged and still repel water till they are touched. Spraying them with some form of spray dry does NOT restore the origonal coating. It is more a matter of "How much use on the fabric?" The best way to repair a damaged tent, damage done by water pressure or other mechanical stress, is to repair the coating. Not add a hydropobic spray.

All fabric are some sort of mesh. Woven fibers of some sort, whatever the weave, is a mesh. This varies from corse "landing" nets with knoted intersections to ultra fine nylon cloth. So, I am a bit confused when Roger says a second skin is the definition of a double walled tent. This implies that that even a mesh inner would count. Yet he was saying it does not. Sorry, Roger, you usually have stuff better thought out, but in this case, I don't buy it. Perhaps you mean a second waterproof layer? No...I am a bit confused...

Anyway, cuben is a film. Plasitic sheets are films. These are very different animals from woven fibers since these are chemicaly linked. Some plastics do not do this. They pretty much only link in one direction making strands. Spectra or Kevlar for example. (I think...it's been a while...) Some curl tightly together but don't really bond sideways. Anyway, lots of synthetics out there.

Idealy, you would like a double walled structure that is a perfect insulator. It isn't happening anytime soon. Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. Eliminate the difference, no condensation. Weather we are talking a single walled shelter or a mesh lined double walled shelter (or any type of fabric) we get condensation in our tents. How we deal with it is different. Until we have the "perfect" material for tents, that can eliminate the temperature difference at the condensing surface, we live with it.

There are other things to consider.
How warm do you want to be? A double walled tent made of two layes of silnylon with only enough ventilation to breath, WILL keep you a lot warmer than one made with loose mosquito mesh.
How many no-see-ums do you have? Bugs are a big downfall of simple tarp shelters in spring and fall(at least here in the north east part of the US.)
How cold is the ground? Laying down on rock or ice is much different than laying down on forest duff. But this starts getting into your sleep system...

Clearly, there is no one tent that will do everything well, even using todays materials. I like my tarp. Late fall, early spring...its great. After the bugs come out, I add a simple mesh tent under it, a lot like a tarp tent. When it gets cold, I much prefer my tunnel tent...it's just warmer even if it IS heavy. My solution may not fit you. Your conditions are likely different from mine. But, don't be put off by a simple manufacturors mass production label of convenience or some member that is hiking in the Adirondacks. There are too many different conditions out in the wild to say one is better than the other. There are too many personal preferences to say this is the best solution, because, someone, somewhere will easily cite their preference and say yours was incorrect. Rather, learn to evaluate your own preferences and needs before making a purchase. Most real tent manufacturors make good tents. Cottage people make great tents for the conditions they know. Out of context, they are poor choices. If I was camping the tropics, my choice would NOT be the same as it is now. Nor would a single walled tarp tent work well in the Antarctic winter.

"Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest." Terra Nova Laser Competition. The issue was height not width, I never bumped anywhere to the sides, just the roof changing clothes, packing, etc. Surely you seen that problem?

My current shelter has a inner roofline 95cm. My next one has 109cm. That will reduce that problem, to a degree I'll not know for a while. This thread's OP is taller than me so just be aware, that's all....

However, I've not just looked at roofline height, I've also considered:
- angles of the fly, steeper ones allow condensation to roll off by itself easier, not just inside but outside as condensation forms on both sides. The TN LC the roofline is quite shallow, 29degs to horizontal, steeper is needed. Many Tarp type shelters you get a steeper angle due to use of a trekking pole near the center. Some TT like the Scarp its quite shallow due to the hoop design.
- roof vents. The TN LC has none. TT Notch, Scarp, Control all have one or two roof vents.
- flexibility to adjust the distance between ground and fly independent of tensioning. The TNLC if you tension it hard against wind it tends to raise the distance but the need for more ground clearance is more in less wind. The Notch you can tension it and adjust the ground clearance independently via adjusting the pole height.

Many condensation-reducing features though do make the shelter colder. That's a concern I'll find out about... two tents back, the Coleman Viper had all mesh upper inner and a large roof vent, it was chilly, colder than the TN LC which had no roof vent. I have beefed up my sleeping bag insulation, will find out how it works out....

"Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. "

Interesting, and of course weather, particularly the night that follows the day, like clear skies overnight after rain in the day, and where vegetation helps hoard moisture, magnify the problem. In such circumstances all fabrics find themselves getting condensation from the outside. There are though a few tricks. A steeper fly fabric angle will allow such condensation to run off, so less is on the fabric. A roof vent allows the warmer morning air to begin to circulate inside the shelter more than a fully solid roof. My steep-sided roof-vented shelter was drying quicker than my shallow-sided non-vented shelter. I'd always be looking when pitching to getting morning sunshine to ideally pack a dry shelter.

Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?

I can't comment on TarpTent, but I have two single wall tents: a BD Bibler Fitzroy and a BD Bibler Bombshelter. Besides being the quietest, strongest, and most aerodynamic mountaineering tents I've ever used, they perform just fine when it comes to condensation/moisture. Of course, I probably wouldn't use them in the tropics [they're not designed for that], but they perform flawlessly in cold weather. You should crack the vents a tad. The fuzzy interior surface "draws" moisture and transports it through the canopy. I'm not sure that I'd ever buy another double wall tent. For the weight, they're hard to beat - especially the Fitzroy, that's an insanely strong tent.

Hi Nigel,

I used the Scarp in varying conditions and always found it warmer in the tent even though it has a considerable amount of mesh. I also have never had any condensation issues with it.

I was out in a Hillie Soulo last Wedneday night in horrendous conditions and suffered badly from condensation.

Cheers,

Stephen

Hi Stephen. Yes I know you said it warmer, ISTR someone measured 5C difference inside vs outside?? Can't recall where I saw that.

Scarp, with solid inner, where is the mesh?

Hi Nigel,

The Mesh is in the upper section of each door, the photo I nicked off the Tarp Tent website gives a good idea.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited by stephenm on 04/17/2012 13:54:52 MDT.

Thanks Stephen, I found some more pics here too







So, is the Scarp1 the *ONLY* TT with solid above-head inner?

Also, the Notch and the SS1 partially solid inner is mesh overhead?

I guess also that not all mesh is the same? The mesh on the inner of my TN LC will let drops roll through it, but I've seen posts from TT owners the mesh that TT uses is much better at keeping water outside?

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/17/2012 14:22:24 MDT.

Nigel pondered: "Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?"

I think most of the advantage to a shelter in terms of warmth is to block wind and resulting heat loss. There is so much space and so many open areas, I wouldn't expect much heat retention (only from escaping body heat). Hopefully, your sleeping gear is doing most of the job there. The benefits of ventilation **should** have more positive effects than trying to retain heat I think, unless it is allowing some real wind to pass through.

Reading through many of the posts in this thread, I would consider a tent with any kind of inner liner to be double-walled, but the range of proportions of fabric and mesh is highly variable across the tent manufacturing market. I agree with others that some wind-blocking fabric that is a bit taller than the sleepers inside will keep more wind away and improve comfort.

Our old 1960's treated cotton pyramids used for Scouting were mostly waterproof and you didn't dare touch them or your would break the surface tension and create a leak right over you. IMHO, touching the inside of a silnylon shelter simply creates a channel for the condensation, along with the motion and will invite a drip, but nothing massive. The basic DWR on the outside of your bag *should* handle that. As others noted, the inner liner can help to keep you and your bag away from the condensation on the outer skin.

I see the sources of condensation as, 1. Your warm breath hitting the cold canopy, 2. Plain old dew, and 3. Moisture rising from the still warm soil and vegetation under you and condensing on the colder canopy. The latter is a real culprit when camping on grass (as in back yard tests) and rain-saturated soil. My pet *theory* is that a fuller ground cloth can help with this, although there is plenty of warm saturated air just outside your shelter to be "shared" as well.

Mike Sobr
For five years before becoming part of Tarptent I posted about those shelters.
I liked them and wanted to share Ihow I was using them.
Every so often someone had a go at me thinking that I was paid to do so, just as you did with the Family Guy.
If you were a Forum tragic like the Family Guy and myself are , you would know that, for example, he was attacked in another forum just a few days ago for suggesting a pyramid shelter.
Why would he do that if indeed he had some connection with TT ?
As it happens I do correspond occasionally with FG and usually about tents or bivvies, mostly not Tarptents..
In fact I sent him a picture yesterday of a tent that belongs to one of the self appointed experts at another Forum pointing out that the "expert" tent was not pitched correctly... (and no I don't have that tent but I can see the problem)
Mind you, none of the other resident experts realised the mistake...
Anyway right here at BPL FG and I have disagreed about certain TT shelters, the Moment was one.


BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters...) a lot of the TT customers are repeat customers, that is they own more than one TT shelter so as much as of course some buy one and then do not like it , many buy another or two.
Franco
Just another thought...
Again the comment has been made about TT sold SH as if that proved anything at all.
As it happens every time I look at one of the for sale pages here at BPL I see something I like although for some reason the owner wants to part from it ...
Anyway, TT sold a few thousand tents last year, as it did the year before and the year before that.
So it isn't all that surprising that some end up for sale.
Come to think of it I see more popular cars for sale SH than the ones that are not so popular...
But I agree that the TT shelters are not for everybody, just like everything really.

Edited by Franco on 04/17/2012 15:58:51 MDT.

> If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away.
> So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

Really, this seems to be a straw man of little significance.
If the next night is 'dry', the tent will dry out fast when it is pitched.
If the next night is again condensing, you have lost little or nothing.

Good inner tent fabric has a good DWR which prevents it from getting too wet anyhow.

Cheers

I just like to talk openly and honestly about camping gear to help others get suitable equipment. Luckily I don't work for a tent company or all my posts would probably be heavily biased like yours are....

and it would be a direct conflict of interest for you to promote other tents even if they are much better suited to the poster and would save time, aggravation and money. Surely you can step back for a moment and be objective and see the stark conflict of interest. That's why most objectionable forums have a manufacturers separate forum to keep the bias away from the discussions as business is surely clouding these tent discussions in a big way as a large proportion of the posts are from people that work there just like this thread and most TT discussions and if somebody mentions another tent they are immediately put down and discredited and the TT thought police are right there.

------------------
Mike
Please keep things nice and polite, or the BPL 'thought police' might have to step in.

Thanks
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

Edited by rcaffin on 04/18/2012 15:54:41 MDT.

I could be offended but for you I will make an exception...
Clearly someone that thinks the Family Guy has a 50/50 partnership with Tarptent simply because he happens to like some TT shelters does not need to be taken seriously...
Franco

I've bought a few tents from Franco as I reside in Australia and have to say I've always enjoyed his excellent advice, great service and prolific posts. I frequent other forums as well and Franco has provided plenty of commentary on other brands as well as Tarptents.

Mike Sobr writes: "...you still try to obvfuscate facts to promote your Tarptents like a cheap corner girl."

Now I am curious - Franco which Tarptent shelter would be the best choice when on a street corner ?

Roger,

I only use double wall shelter (part mesh inner) and I don't like to pack it up wet but if I do then its just a bit more annoying as the next night as the water has squeezed it way from being packed a wet fly around a dry inner into being wet generally over. Specifically the upper surface of the bathtub. The volume of water is not that much but means I have to wait MORE time at the end of the day, wiping it dry and then possibly sit outside it with it all unzipped maximimizing the airflow before I then take my night dry gear and unpack it. So I just like to reduce that problem by trying to pack a drier tent. I reduce the problem by the way I fold the tent, basically folding the bathtub on itself first then rolling from the edge then storing it battub-up, but I can't totally eliminate as the act of walking just squeezes water around any folds. Its never been that much of an issue I'd take time to remove the inner, pack it separate and then reattach it later to help keep it dry. It does make me take the time to select tents with a better anti-condensation set of features.

Mike Sobr - you seem to be crossing from allowing the forum to share experiences to mutual benefit into just a non-useful personal attack. I've exchanged points of view with FG and Franco and learned from them both, I know Franco is part of TT currently but that's cool. Franco invests quite a lot of time with photos and videos, and useful tips which I've found very useful and thanks to Franco for that.

To be specific, I don't sell any tents here in Australia or anywhere...I just ship them out to Aussie customers.

The stock I have belongs to TT ( that is I neither buy nor sell them) , I have it so that I can seam seal on demand.
For that I get a commission for every TT sold here in Australia, that is not a secret and Mik (the OP, remember him?) is aware of that.

Dale
Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.
I remember asking you if you were selling them TTs last time you bought one...
Nigel
Thanks for that. Sometime I wonder but you can please everybody.
Franco