"Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it."

My response set you off and that wasn't my intention.

You mention that a negative of a single walled shelter is that there is condensation that you cannot avoid but then mention that your shelter is double walled and does not have this issue. My comment was that you would still pack away a wet shelter in your case because of the hybrid design. Yes, you could wipe down the fly. But that is exactly what you could do with a single walled shelter.

Ergo, the negative of a single walled shelter is not any more a negative than the hybrid design of your shelter. Alternatively, your shelter is not a double walled design. I would argue that the Notch isn't either because the inner isn't solid but you can separate the fly from the inner completely and the mesh by NA definitions would be a 'wall.'

I owned 49% of Tarptent until they went public. The IPO was significant (thanks Goldman Sachs!). I got many of my family on the President's List, and without a vesting period, I liquidated my ownership. Henry, because of his successful work at the hedge fund Amarath and his long position on natural gas options, was able to buy back all of the shares and return the company to a private organization. This happened just after his successful hike of the PCT.

>Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.

Thanks for the update Franco - I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

How heavy would be the sleeping bag for -40C with a 500mph windchill?

As the Notch is double wall it would provide complete windchill protection :-) Although it may be necessary to add guylines and stronger pegs...

Dale
I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

The one I had up on my lawn this morning was totally wet, but so was my garden furniture and my shed and the grass (no it didn't rain)
Apparently if I had had a double wall one with a fabric inner set up then that one would have been dry.

now , if , on the other hand , there had been a bit of air movement, things would have been dryer.

The two extra guylines I used for the "fully open" set up ,use the same peg as the door , the angle is already good as it is . (so you keep that guyline under the door panel when zipped up)
Franco

Franco the good news is you are in Melbourne and not Sydney which is back to incessant rain once again !

So I can say with some confidence I'll be able to give the Notch plenty of exposure to condensation with Sydney bushwalking :-) Thanks for the guyline tips.

Just so the new folks know how it works around here if you don't tow the party Tarptent line there will be a background check as shown by this recent post on our last Tarptent discussion by a fellow that went back in the archives to try to dig up dirt on me:


P. Larson
(reacttocontact)
Well... on 03/11/2012 20:33:11 MDT

Screw it, I'll be that guy. Just because Franco seems like a cool dude and you...don't.

Mike...for a dude who is really bashing Tarptents, you sure were 1) a fan of them and 2) at one point, pretty hellbent on getting one.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26322

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=30537

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27325

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=34633

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=35733

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=36412

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=37184

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=42462

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=41407

This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest.
Discrediting others on a public forum to promote your tent business is shameful and not helping anybody to make an appropriate decision on what shelter is best for them. People that are not embarrassed for themselves will say anything!!!

Doing background checks on posters with different views?
You are setting new lows even for yourselves.

To David Ure's post right below this one asking me to stop the spy games.... please be honest and not twist the fact that the other poster was the one looking through and publicizing my old posts and spying on me and not the other way around. Again obfuscation rules on TT threads and they are disingenuous and will say anything to discredit others views and condone and cheer on this behavior of the other members.

Edited by breeze on 04/18/2012 19:01:57 MDT.

"This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest."

First, congratulations for being the 100th employee of Tarptent. Second, Franco has never once lied (nasty accusation and subject to criticism). Third, hopefully the OP is still around given that was his FIRST POST and apart from the thread drift, perhaps we can simply post 'possibilities' to his question and get away from all of the 'spy games' stuff. What say you, Mike?

Hmmm...

Mike Sobr said: "I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds."

Then Franco "lied" and said: "BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters...)"

So, either Franco was responding to what you said in this thread OR you expect all of us to keep enough tabs on your past posts to recall your preferences from previous threads (as noted by P. Larson).

My friend, I'm sorry that the Thought Police have not lived up to your standards.

Wasn't it von Clausewitz who said, "Internet discussion forums are the extension of high school by other means"?

It is also puzzling as TT has some of the best double-skin shelters too. For the weight/size/stability/cost its right up there. There are blogs out there of folks with dual-skin TT pitched next to other dual-skin. For example in UK many are moving to the Scarp1 from the Laser Competition due to more secure pegging options and less noise. I think that's why OP started the thread, they had researched, focused on TT and wishing to balance single vs dual options. Because TT also happens to make single-skin does not require there to be any personality discussions. Single-skin have their role, and their advocates.

No shelter is perfect and usually requires a bit of customization for the unique set of problems encountered, there's plenty of blogs out there. For example the Contrail, learning how to peg the peak lower for windier situations.

The Contrail, only having seen the photos, I'd guess its right for rain when its not too windy, is for generally warmer temps, where insects are an issue (real or perceived), and not so much for where its dusty? Also its a different set of issues between having bought a Contrail years ago and there's nothing so wrong with it you'd swap it out, from buying now when TT has more shelter options such as Notch, SS1 which came out relatively recently. There was also the Sublite Silnylon which was retired? (its not available to buy now new).

The Notch, I'm assuming more for cooler conditions, or where someone wants to flexibly have inner-only or fly-only or both to suit the conditions (perhaps say for a longer hike over more varied climates). The partially-solid option also allow for inner-only in hot dusty conditions.

So each has a role. However if someone were to have say the Contrail, they can offset some of its weaknesses via choice of sleeping bag and sleeping bag cover, e.g. a Tyvek 1443r MYOG over-bag to help spread any spits through the mesh or add a bit more insulation.

I might have to ask Henry if P. Larson is also part of the great Tatptent conspiracy...

Oddly Tarptent does not make single wall tents but either hybrids (fly with mesh wall/s and floor attatched ) or double wall
The doble wall types are of both kind, the Roger's type, that is the solid inner version (I agree with him in this case) as well as the mesh version.
In fact TT made avaliable the mesh inner for the Scarps before a certain Swedish brand started to do that also..
Anyway..
This is my personal tent collection :


I have recently given away another one and have had and used several others in the past...
Guess why I use the Contrail and the Moment the most ?
(hint, they do the job for me at less weight/bulk)
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2012 16:09:28 MDT.

Franco TentMeister.

Contrail? By your own video the Notch is the same weight as the Contrail. It is a warmer shelter though.... probably too warm for most of your trips?

Notch is 4 pegs, Contrail is... 5 pegs (both excluding guys) ?

My first tent was Contrail in geometry, it was awkward to get in/out past kit in the vestibule but the Contrail is wider entrance.

You say TT make a double wall solid inner. Which is that? I know the Scarp is part-mesh inner. Is that the Rainbow with clip-in liner?

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/18/2012 17:40:19 MDT.

Nigel
Yes you are correct about the Notch.
Henry is too busy sending them out to customers to have time to send me one.
(TT is shipping out well above last year's figures, the Notch and the two SSs are doing well...)
Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one.
BTW, I use 6 pegs on the Contrail (4 at the corners (needed) 1 at the front to the apex and one at the back on the extra strut.
(that is why mine can take more wind than other Contrails....)

Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation...

Franco
BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT...)

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2012 18:26:08 MDT.

"Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one."

It feels very warming.

"Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation..."

In the UK the Scarp1 has a cult following, from those who aim for the more cold windy situations due to its ground-hugging fly and little-mesh inner, but to me its quite a weight.

"BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT...)"

They are different. The TN LC, which I own, it is 850g total incl extra pegs, which is lighter than the Scarp1's 1.36Kg. The TN LC can't do snow loading, it hasn't the geometry (tall steep side) or support (like the Scarp's crosspoles).

The Akto is a much heavier tent, it has a cult following, in my view a crazy cult, its small and yet not light and expensive. Also can't do snow loading so much either.

The Notch is more of a competitor to the TN LC as its got more length and height but is 0.7KG (actually 850g with the poleset for like-for-like vs TN LC 850g). If you lower the poles to their minimum the head height is still higher than the TN LC, the length unaffected but this allows the poles to widen a fair bit and its the same width as the TN LC inside. But the Notch is less flappy because the fabric is thicker and all the fly angles are tensioned better than the TN LC.

I've just now lowered the Notch in the garden, I don't have adjustable poles so I just lowered by pushing the poles in the earth, measured, tightened, repeated in stages til lowering stopped working - what happens eventually is the fly loses tension and will become flappy at about 105cm pole length. In that mode the fly is as close to the ground as the fly on the TN LC.

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/18/2012 21:32:08 MDT.

Roger,
In the unlikely event that you steeled yourself long enough to go back to this thread, or perhaps had to in order to do your police thing, I must confess that I am just too lazy too go back and dig out your definition of freestanding. It's because I'm spending too much time on the computer when I should be doing other more constructive things, like sleeping. But as I recall, it was something about a freestanding tent being one that assumes its final shape without the aid of the pegs (that eventually must go in anyway, along with guy lines, of course, to anchor the thing and keep the wind from blowing it over or away). Sorry I can't do better right now, but I've got to get my wood crib rebuilt, the firewood stacked for next winter, and a new pack done in time for a good backpack before the bugs arrive in force here. At my stage of development, it has become necessary to redesign, rebuild, and drop a few pounds of pack weight every year in order to stay in the game.

Note to Mike S: Having had similar experiences and witnessed the same patterns and practices you have, I understand how you feel; however, this site originates from the US of A. Cowboys, greed is good, and all that. Toughen up. Goodness and purity come to us later, if at all. If you stick to the facts and merits of the gear, and not the personalities, threads like this one will be much more rewarding, maybe even helpful to Mik, who began it with a simple question.

Hi Sam

Yeah, I could find references to 'my definition', but I could not find the source. Yet another good myth? :-)

Ah well, no matter. As someone else wrote (approximately), 'freestanding = kite'.

Cheers

Samuel,

that reminds me of the fellow that stood up on stage one morning at Woodstock after a proprietor's hamburger stand burned down and he said into the microphone something like:

"even though he is a greedy capitalist hamburger peddlar please donate some $ for him to rebuild his stand"

Always figured he had the munchies and compromised his left-wing views so he could get some food Lol. Some good lessons learned that morning.

BTW I am the one that said long ago that a free-standing tent is called a kite after watching my buddies do the same thing after repeated warnings about aerodynamics and specific gravity.