"I will argue that the second skin must have zero mesh and be fully-enclosing to be a real 'skin'. Otherwise what you have is a mosquito net inner...There is nothing wrong with a single-skin tent with a netting interior."

So what about degrees of mesh? Also where the mesh is? Surely that produces a spectrum of choice between solid and mesh?

And what about doors which have a zipper panel at the top which seals off the mesh? Or vents with mesh that can be closed up? What are the assumptions for "no mesh"? I mean ultimate spindrift or sand proofness doesn't seem to make sense unless you are trying to draw a line between 3+ vs 4 season or are we now assuming certain wind velocities and types of failures? And what about wind shifts. Tunnels are great until the wind goes sideways where domes always have the same aspect -although entry points , etc may change.

@ Nigel - Ummm yeah I did notice the lower ceiling height.....but I have only been using this tent to sleeping in and haven't had to ride out a bad weather episode. I am 195cm tall and opted for the Zephyr 1 for it's 260mm length. I also really like the 110cm width which means that I can have all my gear in there with me. I am thinking that some of the double skinned TT shelters that are just under 90cm wide will not fit me and my gear. Another gripe with the Zephyr 1 is the tarp design. You can't use the inner's pegs to clip the tarp to so you end up with 16 pegs!! That's 160grams just in pegs.

@ Franco - Yes I am in Oz, Brisbane. No snow conditions coming I think so a 3 season tent is all I need. As above I am 195cm tall and that makes some shallow angled tent walls impossible to use (the norm seems to be around the 220cm length) as either my head or my feet touch (size 12 hoofs) OR both.

> Surely that produces a spectrum of choice between solid and mesh?
Of course there is a spectrum of choice - for a spectrum of conditions.

My position is that the end point of the spectrum - full-fabric cover, is what defines a double-skin tent. That is a clear and simple definition. Yes, you can have a mesh-covered window or door at the end of the inner tent, but to meet the definition the window must have a full-fabric cover which can be zipped over the opening. This is actually quite common in good tunnels (and some other designs too).

If you start to be vague about where to draw the line about how much mesh is acceptable you end up with no definition at all. Once you say that a 'little bit of mesh' is OK, you have no control over the meaning of the term because every manufacturer will want to stretch the definition to cover his case. Understandable, but not helpful for the consumer.

> And what about doors which have a zipper panel at the top which seals off the mesh?
> Or vents with mesh that can be closed up?
If the opening can be sealed, it's a full skin. All very simple and clear.

> Tunnels are great until the wind goes sideways
I am sure some tunnels will fail with a sideways wind, but other tunnels handle sideways winds OK. The difference is usually traced to the guy ropes - or lack thereof. That's a design issue: the basic design may still be that of a tunnel.

Cheers

>You need to read our article on Tunnel Tents. Geodesic domes are generally heavier than tunnels. But NO 4-season tent can be free-standing in a storm: they ALL need guy ropes. For that matter, pitching a 3-season tent without any guy-ropes can be equally embarrassing in a good wind. 'Free-standing' is just spin.

I did forget about tunnel tents. I don't know if I've ever seen one in person, so my mind hears '4-season', and pictures 'dome'.

I agree that every tent needs guy lines for wind.

Edited for formatting.

Edited by COHiker on 04/16/2012 20:15:00 MDT.

Fair enough. And then this a bit extensive, but it makes some sense to go out there, What of the illegitimate Gore-tex tents like my Divine Light or the verbotten eVent relics of no true legitimacy yanked by G.E.. International zones are what they are and Japan is hungry lately and cottage gear is $$ but possible. I'm looking forward to what can you buy and having read your solid wrong scenarios I think you are telling the truth as you know it caveat that as your wife knows it true. As does mine.

195cm tall =6ft 5inch = very tall. Still, many of the TT will suit. Contrail is a large long high-roof single skin type, your head is well clear of the fabric, you can sit upright with plenty of headroom, lightweight 0.7Kg, for example.... because I'm 175cm I opted for Notch as where my head ends up is still well clear of the inner and I get a double (part mesh) skin and two vestibules but I were a bigger person the mummy-shape might become a problem.

Franco is I think 173cm and he's got lots of video to show you the different shape spaces inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ

If you go with Contrail, its not 4-season, there is a long slope there which will quickly get loaded with snow, you'd have to get another shelter for colder situations.

The SS1 is heavier, 0.9Kg but 218cm long, 81cm but if you lower the bathtub floor a little it gets wider.

Personal choice but I'd always want some vestibule to stow my wet kit and I'd always want some spare space inside for my dry / overnight kit. The Notch for example is quite narrow so if you're big there's less space inside, the SS1 more width but shorter, the specs all on tt.com

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/16/2012 20:50:42 MDT.

Mik
The Moment will be too small for you (I think...)
I am seam sealing a Notch right now so I measured that for size.
On a standard mat I don't see any problems , on a thick mat your head may be a bit too close to the mesh..

I have stolen this shot :


from Adirondackiteer, that mat is 25"#39;x76" (64x193cm), there is just enough room for the sleeping bag to rest against the mesh. (the fabric wall is a few inches from that)
The Strato Spire 1 will be similar.
If you do not use trekking poles you can get dedicated poles for either .
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/16/2012 21:01:08 MDT.

Franco, I spent some time looking at the dimensions of the Notch and concern it might be too small. I'll know tomorrow, mine is to be delivered. However, comparing this
http://tarptent.com/photos/nt_dimensions.png
with this
http://tarptent.com/photos/ss1_dimensions.png

The Notch appears to be longer than the SS1? The floor length is 108" / 274cm and at those lengths the inner is 19.2" / 48cm above. The SS1 shows as 86" / 218cm. i.e. the Notch is longer?

This video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ
compare Notch at 9m59s with the SS1 at 5mins56s.

There is this diagram, I simply can't understand it, the colours too like each other
http://tarptent.com/photos/ntss1_dimensions.png

Hi Mik,
You are too kind to us.
Since you asked about getting a single wall Tarptent (brand, not type) for non-winter use, I will stick to what you asked.
Because you are tall, and therefore need head and foot room to lay down, as well as more room to sit up without hitting your head on the canopy, please also consider the TarpTent Rainbow, which is better on both those counts than the Moment.

One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended, or hung, rather than pulled solidly taut inside the tent. This can be a problem when the floor starts slipping around, when you move, or on sloped ground. Even if you can adjust to the single wall, this slipping can be vary off-putting to people who are used to more conventional tents.

Not a word about net vs solid inners, generally, as their relative merits also depend to a large extent on the design of the particular tent. I've been using a relatively heavy (3#) 4' by 7.3' modified Wilderness Equipment Bug Dome for several years, and have found that the netting inner keeps me totally free from the effects of condensation. It would be mostly useless in winter, but that is not what you asked about. Not for high winds in unprotected areas, but very handy in the rain:



Roger,
Re: 'Free-standing' is just spin.'
A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.
Sam

Sam
"One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended"
That is not the case with the StratoSpire1, the Rainbow or the Notch.
(in fact all of the TT have a clipped to the end/corner floor. However you can also un-clip them)
Here is a photo I have just taken for an Aussie customer (the owner of this Notch)
Did that to show why I suggest using two guylines to add lateral stability and allow the sides to be opened up compleatly.
Anyway you can also see that the floor is clipped to the poles in the middle and also to the PitchLock triangles at the end.


Nigel
If one needs to, he can sleep sideways inside the SS1.
Franco
Everyone is a critic.
My cat has just spotted a lousy knot . (those guylines are too long for the job...)

Edited by Franco on 04/16/2012 23:34:15 MDT.

Thank you Samuel for mentioning the Ranibow...I have completely left that out of my short list yet it ticks all my boxes. I need a shelter to be long enough with the sides at the head and feet to arch upwards and sitting in there you get the apex of the tent above your head. Plus side entry and a wide floor....well at 100+cm I'll be happy I think. My current Denali tent is nearly 110cm at the widest but it is not a rectangular shape rather a stretched out diamond and at it's widest is 110cm everywhere else it is less. Vestibule seems skimpy/small not big enough really to fit a 65 litre pack without it leaning onto the mesh inner.

So I think I am going to got he leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing.....any last minute hints anyone?

Hi Sam

> A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have
> adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.

I did? Oh Dear. But I forget where.
Remind me please?
(Fading memory, I am sure.)

Cheers

"So I think I am going to got the leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing.....any last minute hints anyone?"

Contrail specifics: As the Contrail was the first TT I looked at, I'll offer what I gleaned from looking at reviews and photos. It is a single-skin so it will be colder than dual-skin (by whoever's definition) so bear in mind when pairing with your insulation. There is a little overhang from the fly around the bathtub so horizontal rain can spit through a little more. Use of dry bags and a water-resistant layer to sleeping bag or some other protection for your sleeping bag may be more of a need on those side areas. Whilst condensation will be reduced, keep a cloth handy to wipe down any that might occur, a Buff is an example. It requires one pole at the front, centrally placed, but you can push that one pole to the side slightly for entry/exit. Franco can input use of two poles to make an A-frame. There is an optional pole which is light if you dont use trekking poles.

Shelter generics: Obviously, it is a new shelter to you, so learn how to pitch such as in garden, try sleeping initially with a fallback option like car-camping whilst you learn a different shelter. The Notch I get today I'm doing garden pitching then doing some nearby low-level overnighters initially before going further. I've done the same with all my previous shelters, 2 tents back I wasn't pitching right and the bathtub floor got full of rain, ooops.

Reasons I didn't go for the Contrail was I was intended to use in UK and I feared it would not keep horizontal rain out and the added weight of having the mesh at ground level causing a cooling breeze coming off wet grass would mean a heavier sleeping bag, so I then looked at the dual-skin (mesh inner) and then when the partially-solid inner options came out for Notch and SS1 I then focused on the space/weight differences and finally opted for the Notch. As I live in California if all the online research still showed me a surprise, worst case, I could return it easily+cheaply enough, but I'm hoping not to. I still think a different TT for altitude winter but I'm not sure which, the Scarp1 currently the strongest contender.

I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds. I bought a used Lightheart Solo on a whim and desperation and it has turned out to be an enlightening chance.
None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent and all the positive aspects of a double walled tent for less weight per size.
If you appreciate a roomier and lighter tent without all the issues it's a no-brainer.

Single-walled Tarptents do have their place and are loved by many but as you can tell by all the folks that quickly sell them they are definately not for most and the interest in the newer double-walled tents shows that an alternative is needed to fill the gap. With the new breed of double-walled tents they will quickly displace alot of the old style tents for all the obvious reasons and judging by the interest of the new TT double-walled tents you can see where it's heading.

Also since you are new here and don't know everybody just for clarity as you read this post and all other tent posts look who is writing what and why. At least 2 of the posters on this thread derive income from selling tents and others are friends of theirs and if you don't promote their tents they will chastise and discredit you in many ways. It's interesting to watch and will help you to make a better informed decision. You will see a list of posts they dug up out of the archives about me mentioning how I like and use Tarptents and then a fellow that works at the company posts that I don't like Tarptents to discredit my views and then they say that they couldn't remember that I have one. Also notice how Franco's post belittles my position and he cheers on the other posters negative responses.

They are really mad at me since for years they posted anonymously about their tents without public disclosure to the new members seeking advice on purchasing a shelter and a few posters complained but I embarrassed them into finally putting the name in the signature area and you will find it there if you look close at the end of their posts. Knowing all the facts and being honest and open should be the beginning of any gear selection discussion without the industry insiders padding the posts and being mistaken for average joe camper since all the newbies have no idea who they are. The next posts will make it all clear:

Edited by breeze on 04/18/2012 21:02:48 MDT.

"None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent"

If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away. So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it.

Mr. Shires isn't going in that direction for nothing!

Not sure about the TT but with the Lightheart you won't have all that moisture contact problem like most folks talk about and is the number one reason they are sold off so quickly with cramped space being the other. The new breed of tents cure all the problems and improve all aspects and shortcomings. Change can be good.

With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much.

>Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are.

Mike, always best to check facts before spouting. You just make yourself look silly and, had you bet, you would have lost. David has absolutely nothing to do with Tarptent (and I would know).

-H

From his bias and closed-mindedness you would never know he wasn't a 50/50 partner. Why else say things that are so far out of reality to promote an agenda? WE don't need thought police just solid info....folks really are capable of making up their own minds given the proper facts.
To scare people away from dw tents cuz you "can't wipe the walls down" is more nonsense and quite frankly you should have corrected him instead of backing up the false information. It's the constant one-sided info that keeps folks on this forum from making better decisions...look at all the posts on just this thread from industry insiders it's totally controlled.

If I even mention another tent option to a poster the same thought police are immediately right there with falsehoods and propaganda.

"Don't buy that tent..you can't wipe the walls down" Lol.