My very first post......

After much much much searching and comparing I have more questions than answers in a shelter choice. My buddies and I are not new to multi day hiking but we are very new to UL gear ideas/choices. My current double walled tent is 1.85kg and am keen to shed from this weight. So after all my searching I have stopped at the Tarptent manufacturer. I am uneasy about the single wall idea but am willing to give it a try especially seeing as these tents are very well ventilated so I can't see moisture build up as a big problem. So is there any difference in performance between a single and double walled tents? Someone said you can't touch the inside of the fly when it's raining because the water will enter into the shelter at that point....is that true?

MAny thanks. Mik.

There are many differences between single-skin and double-skin shelters. It might be easiest to say that double-skin shelters are primarily for winter use and especially snow use.

Note that a shelter with a netting 'inner' remains a single skin shelter. The inner tent has to be wind-resistant fabric for the design to be double-skin. In this context, 'wind-resistant' means just that; it does not mean 'waterproof'.

> Someone said you can't touch the inside of the fly when it's raining because the water
> will enter into the shelter at that point
Oh deary me ... that was true of Japara tents, but they went out of use in the early 70s. Whoever told you taht must have white hair and no knowledge of current gear. :-)

Cheers

Whoever told you taht must have white hair

Ha! Careful Roger! If you got the impression that we yanks have thin skins about our weather just wait til you hear from my fellow white haired folks:-)

I am leaning towards the Moment by Tarptent. Not quite sure what 3+ season means in regards to windproof netting as the manufacturer's website does not mention this. I am guessing thi smight mean it's okay for winter use but not snow use? I am not going to camp in snow so that is not an issue.

The main difference between 3+ and 4 season tents is ability to shed high winds and/or heavy snow loads. Not only on the outside, but true 4 season tents have little or no mesh, the double wall (tent body + outer fly) traps more warmth in the cold.
4 season tents are (to my knowledge) always free-standing and use opposing pole stresses to create a very rigid, often geodesic dome structure.
In general, when a tent maker says 3+ season, they really mean the tent isn't designed to withstand more than a light snow and won't retain any appreciable warmth in extreme temps.
Wind is kind of a separate consideration, and *could* be that what makes a tent great for snow, is terrible for wind, like tall, steeply sloped sides that shed snow but make a sail in wind.

With single wall shelters, the two main weak points (weather-wise)are going to be blowing snow getting under the fly, up over the bathtub-floor wall and into the sleeping area. Some tents can mitigate this by angling the windward pitch against ground, I would guess the Moment would be difficult to make this happen. And number 2: the ability to not collapse under accumulating snow.

The waterproof-ness of the floor when camping *on* snow is in my experience less of an issue than it was 10 years ago due to better materials, but can be a consideration. A sheet of polycryo, or tyvek under the tent can basically negate that problem.

My 2008 vintage $500 MSRP double-wall tent, if I touch the inner with sufficient force it touches the outer which has condensation, then instant rain on my head. Could the concern with "touching" be trying to mean touching the inner so much it then touches the outer? As to why that touching is a problem, I don't know but my guess is hydostatic head figure of the thinner inner fabric not able to withstand much pressure of water. The outer fabric is designed to not let heavy rain through.

My answer to that was more headroom for me to reduce the touching problem, that's my 6th tent in 30ys on order.

My first tent was single-skin and I will never go back even though plenty are happy with them, a lot has to do with the conditions you're camping.

Defining all tents with mesh inner as single-skin is very confusing, you're then meaning there are single skin, double skin, and lined?

Mik,

I've owned only one single-wall shelter. Actually it was a hybrid with a floor, mesh walls, and single-skin roof (SMD Trekker). I liked everything about it ... except the condensation. Living in a relatively arid area I expected condensation to be a rare occurrence. Wrong. More often than not there was condensation, sometimes lots of it. I had to be careful not to touch the ceiling or I would get wet, and more than once I bumped the roof and had a rainshower in my tent. I sold it. To me it wasn't worth the hassle of having to be careful about moving around. There are obviously lots of people who would disagree, but for me it was a pain.

I expect something like the Tarptent Notch that has a full mesh inner would take care of my concerns. Even better would be something with a solid roof on the inner. I'm going to buy the Stratospire 2 as soon as it comes out with a solid inner.

Condensation. There are multiple causes and each cause has its preventative measure.

I just ordered a Tarptent Notch which will hopefully fix some of these causes, but its a 3-season design. I might get another tent for the 4th season will see how the next year goes.

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/16/2012 14:00:21 MDT.

I personally prefer my condensation where I can easily reach it and wipe it off while I'm in my sleeping bag--that means a single wall tent. Your Mileage May Vary!

If I don't wipe the condensation off before my dog wakes up, though, his morning tail-wag routine (he's mostly Lab so he can clear a coffee table with a single wag) brings it all down in a hurry! Even so, it's nothing that the DWR on my sleeping bag shell can't cope with.

As far as a tent wall's leaking when touched--not since the days of old-fashioned untreated canvas tents. Yes, there were some of those around when I was a kid, but anyone who says that now must have lived in a sealed cave for the past 50 years. (Never mind their hair color!) The tent my parents had when I was a kid (bought in 1940) was Egyptian cotton with a paraffin coating, and it certainly didn't leak when touched! It stood up to all sorts of really nasty weather, including hurricane force winds. Of course it wasn't exactly light weight--12 lbs. for a 3-person tent, including poles and stakes--although that was light weight for 1940. It was single wall and we never had any problems with condensation inside.

I prefer a double wall tent where the inner tent is 100% ripstop with no or very little nylon netting. Warmth and reduced condensation are the primary benefits for me.

I hike in the mountains of the pacific northwest. Cool rainy days and nights are frequent. In wet weather with outside temps in the 30s (F) I can raise the inside of the tent to the 40-65 degree range, depending on how active I am in the tent.

Like Daryl, I also live in the cold and damp of the Pacific Northwest. Unlike Daryl, I prefer large tarps like the MLD Trailstar to enclosed tents—double wall or otherwise. Condensation is minimized under a tarp because of the abundant airflow, and the huge amount of space allows you to cook, sprawl out, and keep your gear at hand.

Mik, I'd give a serious look into getting a somewhat enclosed floorless shelter instead of a tarptent—lighter, more useful, easier to live in.

>> Defining all tents with mesh inner as single-skin is very confusing <<

Mik -

I not sure why Roger knocked this thread side-ways by responding that all tents with a mesh inner are single wall... that's just not helpful. He may "technically" be correct but in almost any discussions regarding 3 season, double wall tents, the discussion is talking about a tent with a fly and an inner tent (mesh or solid).

Since you specifically mentioned you are looking at Tarptents, the Stratospire tents are a good example of a double wall tent on the Tarptent site (Henry calls them double wall although Roger obviously disagrees). The advantage of double wall tents is that they move you away from the condensation that forms on the inside of any tent in humid conditions.

Single wall tents will try to manage the condensation by ventilating the inside of the shelter. This often means that single wall tents are quite drafty. Some single wall tents can be pitched tightly to the ground to avoid the drafts but this will cause them they accumulate more condensation which then has to be managed. Not a big issue is you are OK with a few wall wipe-downs during the night or use a bag cover.

Double wall tents with mesh liners suffer from the same condensation issues as the single wall tents however, the inner mesh tent next to your sleeping bag won't be wet so brushing against the inner causes very few issues. If the double wall tent is well designed, the condensation will remain on the underside of the fly and never touch the mesh inner.

I gave up on single wall tents as I found them too drafty for my liking. The condensation issue was never something that caused me any grief.

my tent before my current one was a single hoop design with the ends of the hoop at foot/head the inner was mesh roof and solid inner half-way down to the bathtub. When I sat up, it was drafty, made the shelter not as warm, but wasn't too bad laying down. It had a fly flap which kept rain out of a roof vent which formed part of the guying system. I didn't have any real condensation complaints about it. It was heavy, 2.1Kg, and I broke it from years of use. So I think from that experience I quite like the partially-solid inner with roof vent concept, so long as the geometries work out good and I'd say that is good for above-freezing situations where you don't want to over-heat in northern latitudes with morning sun from 4am.

The tent I had after that is warmer, it has less mesh and the fly has no roof vents but its got such a terrible condensation problem, plus looking at angles it can't get a tight pitch quickly. 1Kg though.

So what I've done is beef up the sleeping bags to better quality down rated to cooler temps, and just now new a partially-solid-inner Tarpent. I'll give that a shot, I'm willing to accept might be a mistake but since when doesn't anyone stop learning?

The issue of tent weight, well that's quite a bit related to your body shape, your height, your weight, and the relative upper/lower dimensions. To make my tent warmer in colder situations I moved from Prolite to the thicker mats but it then just took the just-right headroom to too-little so I've moved to a higher roofline.

Also, I'm not sure a single shelter for the winter is right for the summer, I know there are tents which claim this, e.g. pitch inner-only but I've yet to be convinced and I'm assuming its at least two shelter types needed for full spectrum.

I used single-skin 30 years ago, never again. Some like them.

This is a great article discussing this very subject: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/single_wall_shelters_condensation_factors_tips.html

>> "I am uneasy about the single wall idea but am willing to give it a try especially seeing as these tents are very well ventilated so I can't see moisture build up as a big problem."

Don't worry, Henry at TarpTent knows what he's doing. As I just recently posted in another thread - I have the Rainshadow 2 and live in the rainy PNW. My first night with the Rainshadow 2 we endured 12 hours of rain, with 3 people in the tent, temps in mid-30's, and didn't get wet. There was a light bit of condensation on the inside, but it was so little I was able to bump my head against it without hardly noticing. The TarpTents are built for ventilation, which is the key to avoiding condensation in a single wall.

>> "Someone said you can't touch the inside of the fly when it's raining because the water will enter into the shelter at that point"

No.

Thank you guys so much for the responses. I have learned a great deal from your answers. My current tent is a Denali Zephyr 1 http://www.anaconda.com.au/Product/Flash-Banner-Products/Hike-Scene-Banner/ZephyrIHikeTent. I really don't like the waste of space of the tiny unusable vestibule that is directly in the way of entry /exit and after leaving out all but the bare essentials I can't get the weight under 1.85kg. The thing takes 16 stakes to get it errected properly with the fly not touching the inner!!

For me/personally I would consider my sleep and proper footware to be on top of my list when through hiking.....I must get a good night sleep otherwise cranky-Mik appears the next day. Sounds like the single walled idea (no matter how salivating the lower weights are) may not be a good idea for me. With greater ventilation I can see this issue would be minimized but then you have a draftier tent.

Does anyone know if the TarpTents mesh are windproof rated? I am guessing probably not to aid in moisture expelling.

Thanks for the explanations and responses :).

Hi Mary

> I personally prefer my condensation where I can easily reach it and wipe it off while
> I'm in my sleeping bag
Good One!
Yes, I sometimes have to wipe the tent down first thing in the morning. Sue stays down under her quilt while I wipe the roof, then sits up and demands breakfast.

Cheers

Hi Daniel

> 4 season tents are (to my knowledge) always free-standing and use opposing pole
> stresses to create a very rigid, often geodesic dome structure.
You need to read our article on Tunnel Tents. Geodesic domes are generally heavier than tunnels. But NO 4-season tent can be 'free-standing' in a storm: they ALL need guy ropes. For that matter, pitching a 3-season tent without any guy-ropes can be equally embarrassing in a good wind. 'Free-standing' is just spin.

> true 4 season tents have little or no mesh,
I agree for sure.
I will argue that the second skin must have zero mesh and be fully-enclosing to be a real 'skin'. Otherwise what you have is a mosquito net inner.

Why am I being so hard-line about this definition of what is and what is not a double-skinned tent? Well, partly because of all the marketing spin flying around. Unless we have some clear definitions, everything degenerates into hype and spin, which does us no good at all.

There is nothing wrong with a single-skin tent with a netting interior. It can be an excellent design if you want to keep insects out: that can make the difference between a good night and a bad night, as many of us know. They are just a different class of tent from double-skin tents.

Cheers
Genghis Khan
:-)

Edited by rcaffin on 04/16/2012 16:55:13 MDT.

The Zephyr is showing as 90cm internal height, you not mentioned that as an issue? Implies you're not too tall? My current one is 95cm and I found it too low when I moved up a thicker mat for colder weather. The Notch I ordered is 109cm but becomes about 100cm if I lower it for windier conditions.

I researched the same basic questions but coming from a 1Kg shelter perspective. To answer your questions (correct me if I'm wrong).

TT mesh is not windproof but will blunt the breeze.
Solid inner option exists for the Scarp1
Partially solid inner with windproof for lower panels for Notch and Stratospire1
The Moment has only a mesh inner option (I think still right?)
Scarp, Moment have pole options to help with snow loading. The SS1 has some attachment points for helping it cope with some snow loading.

Dual-vestibule for Scarp, Notch, SS1. In my case I bike-tour so one vestibule for bike, the other for entry/exit but I can swap these around if the wind changes. I also liked being able to adjust the fly height. See http://tarptent.com/momentliner.html at 2mins48sec for lowering, set poles to 105cm.

Mik
Since you mentioned your Denali tent I suspect you are in Australia.
I look after Tarptent here in Australia , so keep this in mind...
I have used most of the TT solo shelters, the Moment is the easiest, nicest to use however there is always a good reason for me to use the other ones too.
The 3.5 season designation means that it will take most weather but not heavy snow.
With the extra crossing pole however it will take a couple of feet of dryish snow.
Anyway snow is not your concern and it will certainly take an out of season fall up in the alps as it is.
The main concern is if you are very tall, say over 185cm and in particular if you use thick mats.
In that case your head will not be far from the end wall and condensation could be a problem.
A few points...
Not all 4 season tents are freestanding. (buy a subscription and read the current article on tunnel tents..)
I am with Mary. I rather prefer wiping the sealing down than carrying a wet second wall.
(if you don't let your fly dry before packing it up, that will wet the inner wall in transit. Water is heavy...)
If you separate the inner wall you still need to dry the fly and that is what I do with the single wall....
As for warmth, it is a bit tricky but often enough people increase the humidity level inside the tent by sealing themselves up .
high humidity in low temps means a perceived cold temperature (a bit like wind chill, your thermometer will not tell you that but it is so)
So there are always trades off.
Anyway, this is my Moment...


Franco
franco@tarptent.com

Edited by Franco on 04/16/2012 17:39:49 MDT.

"I will argue that the second skin must have zero mesh and be fully-enclosing to be a real 'skin'. Otherwise what you have is a mosquito net inner...There is nothing wrong with a single-skin tent with a netting interior."

So what about degrees of mesh? Also where the mesh is? Surely that produces a spectrum of choice between solid and mesh?

And what about doors which have a zipper panel at the top which seals off the mesh? Or vents with mesh that can be closed up? What are the assumptions for "no mesh"? I mean ultimate spindrift or sand proofness doesn't seem to make sense unless you are trying to draw a line between 3+ vs 4 season or are we now assuming certain wind velocities and types of failures? And what about wind shifts. Tunnels are great until the wind goes sideways where domes always have the same aspect -although entry points , etc may change.

@ Nigel - Ummm yeah I did notice the lower ceiling height.....but I have only been using this tent to sleeping in and haven't had to ride out a bad weather episode. I am 195cm tall and opted for the Zephyr 1 for it's 260mm length. I also really like the 110cm width which means that I can have all my gear in there with me. I am thinking that some of the double skinned TT shelters that are just under 90cm wide will not fit me and my gear. Another gripe with the Zephyr 1 is the tarp design. You can't use the inner's pegs to clip the tarp to so you end up with 16 pegs!! That's 160grams just in pegs.

@ Franco - Yes I am in Oz, Brisbane. No snow conditions coming I think so a 3 season tent is all I need. As above I am 195cm tall and that makes some shallow angled tent walls impossible to use (the norm seems to be around the 220cm length) as either my head or my feet touch (size 12 hoofs) OR both.

> Surely that produces a spectrum of choice between solid and mesh?
Of course there is a spectrum of choice - for a spectrum of conditions.

My position is that the end point of the spectrum - full-fabric cover, is what defines a double-skin tent. That is a clear and simple definition. Yes, you can have a mesh-covered window or door at the end of the inner tent, but to meet the definition the window must have a full-fabric cover which can be zipped over the opening. This is actually quite common in good tunnels (and some other designs too).

If you start to be vague about where to draw the line about how much mesh is acceptable you end up with no definition at all. Once you say that a 'little bit of mesh' is OK, you have no control over the meaning of the term because every manufacturer will want to stretch the definition to cover his case. Understandable, but not helpful for the consumer.

> And what about doors which have a zipper panel at the top which seals off the mesh?
> Or vents with mesh that can be closed up?
If the opening can be sealed, it's a full skin. All very simple and clear.

> Tunnels are great until the wind goes sideways
I am sure some tunnels will fail with a sideways wind, but other tunnels handle sideways winds OK. The difference is usually traced to the guy ropes - or lack thereof. That's a design issue: the basic design may still be that of a tunnel.

Cheers

>You need to read our article on Tunnel Tents. Geodesic domes are generally heavier than tunnels. But NO 4-season tent can be free-standing in a storm: they ALL need guy ropes. For that matter, pitching a 3-season tent without any guy-ropes can be equally embarrassing in a good wind. 'Free-standing' is just spin.

I did forget about tunnel tents. I don't know if I've ever seen one in person, so my mind hears '4-season', and pictures 'dome'.

I agree that every tent needs guy lines for wind.

Edited for formatting.

Edited by COHiker on 04/16/2012 20:15:00 MDT.

Fair enough. And then this a bit extensive, but it makes some sense to go out there, What of the illegitimate Gore-tex tents like my Divine Light or the verbotten eVent relics of no true legitimacy yanked by G.E.. International zones are what they are and Japan is hungry lately and cottage gear is $$ but possible. I'm looking forward to what can you buy and having read your solid wrong scenarios I think you are telling the truth as you know it caveat that as your wife knows it true. As does mine.

195cm tall =6ft 5inch = very tall. Still, many of the TT will suit. Contrail is a large long high-roof single skin type, your head is well clear of the fabric, you can sit upright with plenty of headroom, lightweight 0.7Kg, for example.... because I'm 175cm I opted for Notch as where my head ends up is still well clear of the inner and I get a double (part mesh) skin and two vestibules but I were a bigger person the mummy-shape might become a problem.

Franco is I think 173cm and he's got lots of video to show you the different shape spaces inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ

If you go with Contrail, its not 4-season, there is a long slope there which will quickly get loaded with snow, you'd have to get another shelter for colder situations.

The SS1 is heavier, 0.9Kg but 218cm long, 81cm but if you lower the bathtub floor a little it gets wider.

Personal choice but I'd always want some vestibule to stow my wet kit and I'd always want some spare space inside for my dry / overnight kit. The Notch for example is quite narrow so if you're big there's less space inside, the SS1 more width but shorter, the specs all on tt.com

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/16/2012 20:50:42 MDT.

Mik
The Moment will be too small for you (I think...)
I am seam sealing a Notch right now so I measured that for size.
On a standard mat I don't see any problems , on a thick mat your head may be a bit too close to the mesh..

I have stolen this shot :


from Adirondackiteer, that mat is 25"#39;x76" (64x193cm), there is just enough room for the sleeping bag to rest against the mesh. (the fabric wall is a few inches from that)
The Strato Spire 1 will be similar.
If you do not use trekking poles you can get dedicated poles for either .
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/16/2012 21:01:08 MDT.

Franco, I spent some time looking at the dimensions of the Notch and concern it might be too small. I'll know tomorrow, mine is to be delivered. However, comparing this
http://tarptent.com/photos/nt_dimensions.png
with this
http://tarptent.com/photos/ss1_dimensions.png

The Notch appears to be longer than the SS1? The floor length is 108" / 274cm and at those lengths the inner is 19.2" / 48cm above. The SS1 shows as 86" / 218cm. i.e. the Notch is longer?

This video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt1Oezq2GQ
compare Notch at 9m59s with the SS1 at 5mins56s.

There is this diagram, I simply can't understand it, the colours too like each other
http://tarptent.com/photos/ntss1_dimensions.png

Hi Mik,
You are too kind to us.
Since you asked about getting a single wall Tarptent (brand, not type) for non-winter use, I will stick to what you asked.
Because you are tall, and therefore need head and foot room to lay down, as well as more room to sit up without hitting your head on the canopy, please also consider the TarpTent Rainbow, which is better on both those counts than the Moment.

One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended, or hung, rather than pulled solidly taut inside the tent. This can be a problem when the floor starts slipping around, when you move, or on sloped ground. Even if you can adjust to the single wall, this slipping can be vary off-putting to people who are used to more conventional tents.

Not a word about net vs solid inners, generally, as their relative merits also depend to a large extent on the design of the particular tent. I've been using a relatively heavy (3#) 4' by 7.3' modified Wilderness Equipment Bug Dome for several years, and have found that the netting inner keeps me totally free from the effects of condensation. It would be mostly useless in winter, but that is not what you asked about. Not for high winds in unprotected areas, but very handy in the rain:



Roger,
Re: 'Free-standing' is just spin.'
A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.
Sam

Sam
"One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended"
That is not the case with the StratoSpire1, the Rainbow or the Notch.
(in fact all of the TT have a clipped to the end/corner floor. However you can also un-clip them)
Here is a photo I have just taken for an Aussie customer (the owner of this Notch)
Did that to show why I suggest using two guylines to add lateral stability and allow the sides to be opened up compleatly.
Anyway you can also see that the floor is clipped to the poles in the middle and also to the PitchLock triangles at the end.


Nigel
If one needs to, he can sleep sideways inside the SS1.
Franco
Everyone is a critic.
My cat has just spotted a lousy knot . (those guylines are too long for the job...)

Edited by Franco on 04/16/2012 23:34:15 MDT.

Thank you Samuel for mentioning the Ranibow...I have completely left that out of my short list yet it ticks all my boxes. I need a shelter to be long enough with the sides at the head and feet to arch upwards and sitting in there you get the apex of the tent above your head. Plus side entry and a wide floor....well at 100+cm I'll be happy I think. My current Denali tent is nearly 110cm at the widest but it is not a rectangular shape rather a stretched out diamond and at it's widest is 110cm everywhere else it is less. Vestibule seems skimpy/small not big enough really to fit a 65 litre pack without it leaning onto the mesh inner.

So I think I am going to got he leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing.....any last minute hints anyone?

Hi Sam

> A while ago you provided a nice definition for 'free-standing' that many posters have
> adopted. Careful, lest you hoist yourself on your own petard.

I did? Oh Dear. But I forget where.
Remind me please?
(Fading memory, I am sure.)

Cheers

"So I think I am going to got the leap of faith and do the single walled shelter thing.....any last minute hints anyone?"

Contrail specifics: As the Contrail was the first TT I looked at, I'll offer what I gleaned from looking at reviews and photos. It is a single-skin so it will be colder than dual-skin (by whoever's definition) so bear in mind when pairing with your insulation. There is a little overhang from the fly around the bathtub so horizontal rain can spit through a little more. Use of dry bags and a water-resistant layer to sleeping bag or some other protection for your sleeping bag may be more of a need on those side areas. Whilst condensation will be reduced, keep a cloth handy to wipe down any that might occur, a Buff is an example. It requires one pole at the front, centrally placed, but you can push that one pole to the side slightly for entry/exit. Franco can input use of two poles to make an A-frame. There is an optional pole which is light if you dont use trekking poles.

Shelter generics: Obviously, it is a new shelter to you, so learn how to pitch such as in garden, try sleeping initially with a fallback option like car-camping whilst you learn a different shelter. The Notch I get today I'm doing garden pitching then doing some nearby low-level overnighters initially before going further. I've done the same with all my previous shelters, 2 tents back I wasn't pitching right and the bathtub floor got full of rain, ooops.

Reasons I didn't go for the Contrail was I was intended to use in UK and I feared it would not keep horizontal rain out and the added weight of having the mesh at ground level causing a cooling breeze coming off wet grass would mean a heavier sleeping bag, so I then looked at the dual-skin (mesh inner) and then when the partially-solid inner options came out for Notch and SS1 I then focused on the space/weight differences and finally opted for the Notch. As I live in California if all the online research still showed me a surprise, worst case, I could return it easily+cheaply enough, but I'm hoping not to. I still think a different TT for altitude winter but I'm not sure which, the Scarp1 currently the strongest contender.

I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds. I bought a used Lightheart Solo on a whim and desperation and it has turned out to be an enlightening chance.
None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent and all the positive aspects of a double walled tent for less weight per size.
If you appreciate a roomier and lighter tent without all the issues it's a no-brainer.

Single-walled Tarptents do have their place and are loved by many but as you can tell by all the folks that quickly sell them they are definately not for most and the interest in the newer double-walled tents shows that an alternative is needed to fill the gap. With the new breed of double-walled tents they will quickly displace alot of the old style tents for all the obvious reasons and judging by the interest of the new TT double-walled tents you can see where it's heading.

Also since you are new here and don't know everybody just for clarity as you read this post and all other tent posts look who is writing what and why. At least 2 of the posters on this thread derive income from selling tents and others are friends of theirs and if you don't promote their tents they will chastise and discredit you in many ways. It's interesting to watch and will help you to make a better informed decision. You will see a list of posts they dug up out of the archives about me mentioning how I like and use Tarptents and then a fellow that works at the company posts that I don't like Tarptents to discredit my views and then they say that they couldn't remember that I have one. Also notice how Franco's post belittles my position and he cheers on the other posters negative responses.

They are really mad at me since for years they posted anonymously about their tents without public disclosure to the new members seeking advice on purchasing a shelter and a few posters complained but I embarrassed them into finally putting the name in the signature area and you will find it there if you look close at the end of their posts. Knowing all the facts and being honest and open should be the beginning of any gear selection discussion without the industry insiders padding the posts and being mistaken for average joe camper since all the newbies have no idea who they are. The next posts will make it all clear:

Edited by breeze on 04/18/2012 21:02:48 MDT.

"None of the negatives and limitations of using a single walled tent"

If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away. So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it.

Mr. Shires isn't going in that direction for nothing!

Not sure about the TT but with the Lightheart you won't have all that moisture contact problem like most folks talk about and is the number one reason they are sold off so quickly with cramped space being the other. The new breed of tents cure all the problems and improve all aspects and shortcomings. Change can be good.

With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much.

>Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are.

Mike, always best to check facts before spouting. You just make yourself look silly and, had you bet, you would have lost. David has absolutely nothing to do with Tarptent (and I would know).

-H

From his bias and closed-mindedness you would never know he wasn't a 50/50 partner. Why else say things that are so far out of reality to promote an agenda? WE don't need thought police just solid info....folks really are capable of making up their own minds given the proper facts.
To scare people away from dw tents cuz you "can't wipe the walls down" is more nonsense and quite frankly you should have corrected him instead of backing up the false information. It's the constant one-sided info that keeps folks on this forum from making better decisions...look at all the posts on just this thread from industry insiders it's totally controlled.

If I even mention another tent option to a poster the same thought police are immediately right there with falsehoods and propaganda.

"Don't buy that tent..you can't wipe the walls down" Lol.

"With a double wall, there's still condensation on the inside of the outer fabric. The inner fabric just keeps you from touching it. If I touch the inside a bit and get some condensation on me it doesn't matter that much." Yep totally correct. However, if the roofline is too low you can be moving around inside apply a point force to the inner and then you get instant rain! The inner fabric is designed to hold back drips of condensation, not rain, and the force you can apply then lets the water in.

Its better to have a design with limits condensation, and look at location of the pitch.

I have never used the double-walled TT but at least with the LH Solo the mesh is located in a manner where if you bump it doesn't affect the outer and I have not seen condensation fall into the main tent even when in really humid conditions that would have really wetted and soaked through my other single-walled tents. I guess if you jolted a main support it could happen but the design of the tent helps to eliminate the problem.
I don't give opinion on anything I don't have first hand experience with and just try to help others make proper decisions.

The OP is tall. "Bump" if too low a shelter turns into more of a scrape right along and that definitely lets the damp stuff in (from first hand experience). It wasn't a problem for me til I upgraded to a thicker mat.

Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest.

So nobody is misinformed or scared of with disinformation the LH inner mesh has enough give that if you bump it water will not fall on you and I have tested it in really humid conditions that have formerly formed puddles on the floor with a single walled tent.

Edited by breeze on 04/17/2012 11:08:44 MDT.

There is always some disagreement about this subject. It seems that condensation always pops up as the main issue, with single walled shelters. Weight is always cited as the big down fall of double walled tents...carry *two* tents??? Most manufacturors have compromised with a waterproof layer and some sort of mesh inner on double walled shelters.

Modern shelters with fairly new silnylon will not leak when touched. However, after several years of using the same tent or tarp, they do. The silicone coating, not a simple spray on coating, will become damaged and still repel water till they are touched. Spraying them with some form of spray dry does NOT restore the origonal coating. It is more a matter of "How much use on the fabric?" The best way to repair a damaged tent, damage done by water pressure or other mechanical stress, is to repair the coating. Not add a hydropobic spray.

All fabric are some sort of mesh. Woven fibers of some sort, whatever the weave, is a mesh. This varies from corse "landing" nets with knoted intersections to ultra fine nylon cloth. So, I am a bit confused when Roger says a second skin is the definition of a double walled tent. This implies that that even a mesh inner would count. Yet he was saying it does not. Sorry, Roger, you usually have stuff better thought out, but in this case, I don't buy it. Perhaps you mean a second waterproof layer? No...I am a bit confused...

Anyway, cuben is a film. Plasitic sheets are films. These are very different animals from woven fibers since these are chemicaly linked. Some plastics do not do this. They pretty much only link in one direction making strands. Spectra or Kevlar for example. (I think...it's been a while...) Some curl tightly together but don't really bond sideways. Anyway, lots of synthetics out there.

Idealy, you would like a double walled structure that is a perfect insulator. It isn't happening anytime soon. Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. Eliminate the difference, no condensation. Weather we are talking a single walled shelter or a mesh lined double walled shelter (or any type of fabric) we get condensation in our tents. How we deal with it is different. Until we have the "perfect" material for tents, that can eliminate the temperature difference at the condensing surface, we live with it.

There are other things to consider.
How warm do you want to be? A double walled tent made of two layes of silnylon with only enough ventilation to breath, WILL keep you a lot warmer than one made with loose mosquito mesh.
How many no-see-ums do you have? Bugs are a big downfall of simple tarp shelters in spring and fall(at least here in the north east part of the US.)
How cold is the ground? Laying down on rock or ice is much different than laying down on forest duff. But this starts getting into your sleep system...

Clearly, there is no one tent that will do everything well, even using todays materials. I like my tarp. Late fall, early spring...its great. After the bugs come out, I add a simple mesh tent under it, a lot like a tarp tent. When it gets cold, I much prefer my tunnel tent...it's just warmer even if it IS heavy. My solution may not fit you. Your conditions are likely different from mine. But, don't be put off by a simple manufacturors mass production label of convenience or some member that is hiking in the Adirondacks. There are too many different conditions out in the wild to say one is better than the other. There are too many personal preferences to say this is the best solution, because, someone, somewhere will easily cite their preference and say yours was incorrect. Rather, learn to evaluate your own preferences and needs before making a purchase. Most real tent manufacturors make good tents. Cottage people make great tents for the conditions they know. Out of context, they are poor choices. If I was camping the tropics, my choice would NOT be the same as it is now. Nor would a single walled tarp tent work well in the Antarctic winter.

"Which shelter are you referring to that dumps damp on the occupant by bumping a mesh wall? Be honest." Terra Nova Laser Competition. The issue was height not width, I never bumped anywhere to the sides, just the roof changing clothes, packing, etc. Surely you seen that problem?

My current shelter has a inner roofline 95cm. My next one has 109cm. That will reduce that problem, to a degree I'll not know for a while. This thread's OP is taller than me so just be aware, that's all....

However, I've not just looked at roofline height, I've also considered:
- angles of the fly, steeper ones allow condensation to roll off by itself easier, not just inside but outside as condensation forms on both sides. The TN LC the roofline is quite shallow, 29degs to horizontal, steeper is needed. Many Tarp type shelters you get a steeper angle due to use of a trekking pole near the center. Some TT like the Scarp its quite shallow due to the hoop design.
- roof vents. The TN LC has none. TT Notch, Scarp, Control all have one or two roof vents.
- flexibility to adjust the distance between ground and fly independent of tensioning. The TNLC if you tension it hard against wind it tends to raise the distance but the need for more ground clearance is more in less wind. The Notch you can tension it and adjust the ground clearance independently via adjusting the pole height.

Many condensation-reducing features though do make the shelter colder. That's a concern I'll find out about... two tents back, the Coleman Viper had all mesh upper inner and a large roof vent, it was chilly, colder than the TN LC which had no roof vent. I have beefed up my sleeping bag insulation, will find out how it works out....

"Condensation will only occur where there is a temperatur/humidity difference. "

Interesting, and of course weather, particularly the night that follows the day, like clear skies overnight after rain in the day, and where vegetation helps hoard moisture, magnify the problem. In such circumstances all fabrics find themselves getting condensation from the outside. There are though a few tricks. A steeper fly fabric angle will allow such condensation to run off, so less is on the fabric. A roof vent allows the warmer morning air to begin to circulate inside the shelter more than a fully solid roof. My steep-sided roof-vented shelter was drying quicker than my shallow-sided non-vented shelter. I'd always be looking when pitching to getting morning sunshine to ideally pack a dry shelter.

Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?

I can't comment on TarpTent, but I have two single wall tents: a BD Bibler Fitzroy and a BD Bibler Bombshelter. Besides being the quietest, strongest, and most aerodynamic mountaineering tents I've ever used, they perform just fine when it comes to condensation/moisture. Of course, I probably wouldn't use them in the tropics [they're not designed for that], but they perform flawlessly in cold weather. You should crack the vents a tad. The fuzzy interior surface "draws" moisture and transports it through the canopy. I'm not sure that I'd ever buy another double wall tent. For the weight, they're hard to beat - especially the Fitzroy, that's an insanely strong tent.

Hi Nigel,

I used the Scarp in varying conditions and always found it warmer in the tent even though it has a considerable amount of mesh. I also have never had any condensation issues with it.

I was out in a Hillie Soulo last Wedneday night in horrendous conditions and suffered badly from condensation.

Cheers,

Stephen

Hi Stephen. Yes I know you said it warmer, ISTR someone measured 5C difference inside vs outside?? Can't recall where I saw that.

Scarp, with solid inner, where is the mesh?

Hi Nigel,

The Mesh is in the upper section of each door, the photo I nicked off the Tarp Tent website gives a good idea.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited by stephenm on 04/17/2012 13:54:52 MDT.

Thanks Stephen, I found some more pics here too







So, is the Scarp1 the *ONLY* TT with solid above-head inner?

Also, the Notch and the SS1 partially solid inner is mesh overhead?

I guess also that not all mesh is the same? The mesh on the inner of my TN LC will let drops roll through it, but I've seen posts from TT owners the mesh that TT uses is much better at keeping water outside?

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/17/2012 14:22:24 MDT.

Nigel pondered: "Also, and I'm eager to understand this bit myself, if you have a roof vent, what chance has for the fly to have any insulation properties? What if the inner is all mesh, what chance has it to hold any heat? Surely such designs will be a good deal colder than a little-mesh solid inner (like TT do in say the Scarp1)? I know some folks measure temperatures, was this ever compared?"

I think most of the advantage to a shelter in terms of warmth is to block wind and resulting heat loss. There is so much space and so many open areas, I wouldn't expect much heat retention (only from escaping body heat). Hopefully, your sleeping gear is doing most of the job there. The benefits of ventilation **should** have more positive effects than trying to retain heat I think, unless it is allowing some real wind to pass through.

Reading through many of the posts in this thread, I would consider a tent with any kind of inner liner to be double-walled, but the range of proportions of fabric and mesh is highly variable across the tent manufacturing market. I agree with others that some wind-blocking fabric that is a bit taller than the sleepers inside will keep more wind away and improve comfort.

Our old 1960's treated cotton pyramids used for Scouting were mostly waterproof and you didn't dare touch them or your would break the surface tension and create a leak right over you. IMHO, touching the inside of a silnylon shelter simply creates a channel for the condensation, along with the motion and will invite a drip, but nothing massive. The basic DWR on the outside of your bag *should* handle that. As others noted, the inner liner can help to keep you and your bag away from the condensation on the outer skin.

I see the sources of condensation as, 1. Your warm breath hitting the cold canopy, 2. Plain old dew, and 3. Moisture rising from the still warm soil and vegetation under you and condensing on the colder canopy. The latter is a real culprit when camping on grass (as in back yard tests) and rain-saturated soil. My pet *theory* is that a fuller ground cloth can help with this, although there is plenty of warm saturated air just outside your shelter to be "shared" as well.

Mike Sobr
For five years before becoming part of Tarptent I posted about those shelters.
I liked them and wanted to share Ihow I was using them.
Every so often someone had a go at me thinking that I was paid to do so, just as you did with the Family Guy.
If you were a Forum tragic like the Family Guy and myself are , you would know that, for example, he was attacked in another forum just a few days ago for suggesting a pyramid shelter.
Why would he do that if indeed he had some connection with TT ?
As it happens I do correspond occasionally with FG and usually about tents or bivvies, mostly not Tarptents..
In fact I sent him a picture yesterday of a tent that belongs to one of the self appointed experts at another Forum pointing out that the "expert" tent was not pitched correctly... (and no I don't have that tent but I can see the problem)
Mind you, none of the other resident experts realised the mistake...
Anyway right here at BPL FG and I have disagreed about certain TT shelters, the Moment was one.


BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters...) a lot of the TT customers are repeat customers, that is they own more than one TT shelter so as much as of course some buy one and then do not like it , many buy another or two.
Franco
Just another thought...
Again the comment has been made about TT sold SH as if that proved anything at all.
As it happens every time I look at one of the for sale pages here at BPL I see something I like although for some reason the owner wants to part from it ...
Anyway, TT sold a few thousand tents last year, as it did the year before and the year before that.
So it isn't all that surprising that some end up for sale.
Come to think of it I see more popular cars for sale SH than the ones that are not so popular...
But I agree that the TT shelters are not for everybody, just like everything really.

Edited by Franco on 04/17/2012 15:58:51 MDT.

> If the tent fly is wet you cannot separate and must pack the entire thing wet away.
> So this limitation is the same as a single walled tent.

Really, this seems to be a straw man of little significance.
If the next night is 'dry', the tent will dry out fast when it is pitched.
If the next night is again condensing, you have lost little or nothing.

Good inner tent fabric has a good DWR which prevents it from getting too wet anyhow.

Cheers

I just like to talk openly and honestly about camping gear to help others get suitable equipment. Luckily I don't work for a tent company or all my posts would probably be heavily biased like yours are....

and it would be a direct conflict of interest for you to promote other tents even if they are much better suited to the poster and would save time, aggravation and money. Surely you can step back for a moment and be objective and see the stark conflict of interest. That's why most objectionable forums have a manufacturers separate forum to keep the bias away from the discussions as business is surely clouding these tent discussions in a big way as a large proportion of the posts are from people that work there just like this thread and most TT discussions and if somebody mentions another tent they are immediately put down and discredited and the TT thought police are right there.

------------------
Mike
Please keep things nice and polite, or the BPL 'thought police' might have to step in.

Thanks
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

Edited by rcaffin on 04/18/2012 15:54:41 MDT.

I could be offended but for you I will make an exception...
Clearly someone that thinks the Family Guy has a 50/50 partnership with Tarptent simply because he happens to like some TT shelters does not need to be taken seriously...
Franco

I've bought a few tents from Franco as I reside in Australia and have to say I've always enjoyed his excellent advice, great service and prolific posts. I frequent other forums as well and Franco has provided plenty of commentary on other brands as well as Tarptents.

Mike Sobr writes: "...you still try to obvfuscate facts to promote your Tarptents like a cheap corner girl."

Now I am curious - Franco which Tarptent shelter would be the best choice when on a street corner ?

Roger,

I only use double wall shelter (part mesh inner) and I don't like to pack it up wet but if I do then its just a bit more annoying as the next night as the water has squeezed it way from being packed a wet fly around a dry inner into being wet generally over. Specifically the upper surface of the bathtub. The volume of water is not that much but means I have to wait MORE time at the end of the day, wiping it dry and then possibly sit outside it with it all unzipped maximimizing the airflow before I then take my night dry gear and unpack it. So I just like to reduce that problem by trying to pack a drier tent. I reduce the problem by the way I fold the tent, basically folding the bathtub on itself first then rolling from the edge then storing it battub-up, but I can't totally eliminate as the act of walking just squeezes water around any folds. Its never been that much of an issue I'd take time to remove the inner, pack it separate and then reattach it later to help keep it dry. It does make me take the time to select tents with a better anti-condensation set of features.

Mike Sobr - you seem to be crossing from allowing the forum to share experiences to mutual benefit into just a non-useful personal attack. I've exchanged points of view with FG and Franco and learned from them both, I know Franco is part of TT currently but that's cool. Franco invests quite a lot of time with photos and videos, and useful tips which I've found very useful and thanks to Franco for that.

To be specific, I don't sell any tents here in Australia or anywhere...I just ship them out to Aussie customers.

The stock I have belongs to TT ( that is I neither buy nor sell them) , I have it so that I can seam seal on demand.
For that I get a commission for every TT sold here in Australia, that is not a secret and Mik (the OP, remember him?) is aware of that.

Dale
Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.
I remember asking you if you were selling them TTs last time you bought one...
Nigel
Thanks for that. Sometime I wonder but you can please everybody.
Franco

"Completely untrue and shows your continued bias for whatever reason. I would bet you are involved with Franco and HS somehow seeing how one-sided you are. You can wipe the walls down easily. Give one a try and be honest with yourself and you will quickly find out why so many are making the switch to double-wall and loving it."

My response set you off and that wasn't my intention.

You mention that a negative of a single walled shelter is that there is condensation that you cannot avoid but then mention that your shelter is double walled and does not have this issue. My comment was that you would still pack away a wet shelter in your case because of the hybrid design. Yes, you could wipe down the fly. But that is exactly what you could do with a single walled shelter.

Ergo, the negative of a single walled shelter is not any more a negative than the hybrid design of your shelter. Alternatively, your shelter is not a double walled design. I would argue that the Notch isn't either because the inner isn't solid but you can separate the fly from the inner completely and the mesh by NA definitions would be a 'wall.'

I owned 49% of Tarptent until they went public. The IPO was significant (thanks Goldman Sachs!). I got many of my family on the President's List, and without a vesting period, I liquidated my ownership. Henry, because of his successful work at the hedge fund Amarath and his long position on natural gas options, was able to buy back all of the shares and return the company to a private organization. This happened just after his successful hike of the PCT.

>Your Notch is flying over Hawaii right now. The weather is sunny and it is -40c outside the plane.

Thanks for the update Franco - I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

How heavy would be the sleeping bag for -40C with a 500mph windchill?

As the Notch is double wall it would provide complete windchill protection :-) Although it may be necessary to add guylines and stronger pegs...

Dale
I imagine the Notch is also handling the condensation admirably.

The one I had up on my lawn this morning was totally wet, but so was my garden furniture and my shed and the grass (no it didn't rain)
Apparently if I had had a double wall one with a fabric inner set up then that one would have been dry.

now , if , on the other hand , there had been a bit of air movement, things would have been dryer.

The two extra guylines I used for the "fully open" set up ,use the same peg as the door , the angle is already good as it is . (so you keep that guyline under the door panel when zipped up)
Franco

Franco the good news is you are in Melbourne and not Sydney which is back to incessant rain once again !

So I can say with some confidence I'll be able to give the Notch plenty of exposure to condensation with Sydney bushwalking :-) Thanks for the guyline tips.

Just so the new folks know how it works around here if you don't tow the party Tarptent line there will be a background check as shown by this recent post on our last Tarptent discussion by a fellow that went back in the archives to try to dig up dirt on me:


P. Larson
(reacttocontact)
Well... on 03/11/2012 20:33:11 MDT

Screw it, I'll be that guy. Just because Franco seems like a cool dude and you...don't.

Mike...for a dude who is really bashing Tarptents, you sure were 1) a fan of them and 2) at one point, pretty hellbent on getting one.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=26322

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=30537

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27325

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=34633

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=35733

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=36412

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=37184

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=42462

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=41407

This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest.
Discrediting others on a public forum to promote your tent business is shameful and not helping anybody to make an appropriate decision on what shelter is best for them. People that are not embarrassed for themselves will say anything!!!

Doing background checks on posters with different views?
You are setting new lows even for yourselves.

To David Ure's post right below this one asking me to stop the spy games.... please be honest and not twist the fact that the other poster was the one looking through and publicizing my old posts and spying on me and not the other way around. Again obfuscation rules on TT threads and they are disingenuous and will say anything to discredit others views and condone and cheer on this behavior of the other members.

Edited by breeze on 04/18/2012 19:01:57 MDT.

"This proves that I have promoted Tarptents and actually own and use them and that Franco knew it all along but lied and said that I didn't for self interest."

First, congratulations for being the 100th employee of Tarptent. Second, Franco has never once lied (nasty accusation and subject to criticism). Third, hopefully the OP is still around given that was his FIRST POST and apart from the thread drift, perhaps we can simply post 'possibilities' to his question and get away from all of the 'spy games' stuff. What say you, Mike?

Hmmm...

Mike Sobr said: "I had most of the classic single-walled Tarptents mentioned over the years and have gone to a double-walled tent which is the best of both worlds."

Then Franco "lied" and said: "BTW, as much as you personally don't like the TT shelters (or possibly all single wall shelters...)"

So, either Franco was responding to what you said in this thread OR you expect all of us to keep enough tabs on your past posts to recall your preferences from previous threads (as noted by P. Larson).

My friend, I'm sorry that the Thought Police have not lived up to your standards.

Wasn't it von Clausewitz who said, "Internet discussion forums are the extension of high school by other means"?

It is also puzzling as TT has some of the best double-skin shelters too. For the weight/size/stability/cost its right up there. There are blogs out there of folks with dual-skin TT pitched next to other dual-skin. For example in UK many are moving to the Scarp1 from the Laser Competition due to more secure pegging options and less noise. I think that's why OP started the thread, they had researched, focused on TT and wishing to balance single vs dual options. Because TT also happens to make single-skin does not require there to be any personality discussions. Single-skin have their role, and their advocates.

No shelter is perfect and usually requires a bit of customization for the unique set of problems encountered, there's plenty of blogs out there. For example the Contrail, learning how to peg the peak lower for windier situations.

The Contrail, only having seen the photos, I'd guess its right for rain when its not too windy, is for generally warmer temps, where insects are an issue (real or perceived), and not so much for where its dusty? Also its a different set of issues between having bought a Contrail years ago and there's nothing so wrong with it you'd swap it out, from buying now when TT has more shelter options such as Notch, SS1 which came out relatively recently. There was also the Sublite Silnylon which was retired? (its not available to buy now new).

The Notch, I'm assuming more for cooler conditions, or where someone wants to flexibly have inner-only or fly-only or both to suit the conditions (perhaps say for a longer hike over more varied climates). The partially-solid option also allow for inner-only in hot dusty conditions.

So each has a role. However if someone were to have say the Contrail, they can offset some of its weaknesses via choice of sleeping bag and sleeping bag cover, e.g. a Tyvek 1443r MYOG over-bag to help spread any spits through the mesh or add a bit more insulation.

I might have to ask Henry if P. Larson is also part of the great Tatptent conspiracy...

Oddly Tarptent does not make single wall tents but either hybrids (fly with mesh wall/s and floor attatched ) or double wall
The doble wall types are of both kind, the Roger's type, that is the solid inner version (I agree with him in this case) as well as the mesh version.
In fact TT made avaliable the mesh inner for the Scarps before a certain Swedish brand started to do that also..
Anyway..
This is my personal tent collection :


I have recently given away another one and have had and used several others in the past...
Guess why I use the Contrail and the Moment the most ?
(hint, they do the job for me at less weight/bulk)
Franco

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2012 16:09:28 MDT.

Franco TentMeister.

Contrail? By your own video the Notch is the same weight as the Contrail. It is a warmer shelter though.... probably too warm for most of your trips?

Notch is 4 pegs, Contrail is... 5 pegs (both excluding guys) ?

My first tent was Contrail in geometry, it was awkward to get in/out past kit in the vestibule but the Contrail is wider entrance.

You say TT make a double wall solid inner. Which is that? I know the Scarp is part-mesh inner. Is that the Rainbow with clip-in liner?

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/18/2012 17:40:19 MDT.

Nigel
Yes you are correct about the Notch.
Henry is too busy sending them out to customers to have time to send me one.
(TT is shipping out well above last year's figures, the Notch and the two SSs are doing well...)
Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one.
BTW, I use 6 pegs on the Contrail (4 at the corners (needed) 1 at the front to the apex and one at the back on the extra strut.
(that is why mine can take more wind than other Contrails....)

Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation...

Franco
BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT...)

Edited by Franco on 04/18/2012 18:26:08 MDT.

"Actually I still have not had my hands on the partial fabric interior for the Notch so I am not sure between that and the fabric one."

It feels very warming.

"Full double wall. Well yes there is some mesh on the Scarps but just enough to let some air circulation..."

In the UK the Scarp1 has a cult following, from those who aim for the more cold windy situations due to its ground-hugging fly and little-mesh inner, but to me its quite a weight.

"BTW, several at Outdoor Magic laughed at me when I suggested the Scarp as a good alternative to the TN and Akto (that was a few years ago and before I was part of TT...)"

They are different. The TN LC, which I own, it is 850g total incl extra pegs, which is lighter than the Scarp1's 1.36Kg. The TN LC can't do snow loading, it hasn't the geometry (tall steep side) or support (like the Scarp's crosspoles).

The Akto is a much heavier tent, it has a cult following, in my view a crazy cult, its small and yet not light and expensive. Also can't do snow loading so much either.

The Notch is more of a competitor to the TN LC as its got more length and height but is 0.7KG (actually 850g with the poleset for like-for-like vs TN LC 850g). If you lower the poles to their minimum the head height is still higher than the TN LC, the length unaffected but this allows the poles to widen a fair bit and its the same width as the TN LC inside. But the Notch is less flappy because the fabric is thicker and all the fly angles are tensioned better than the TN LC.

I've just now lowered the Notch in the garden, I don't have adjustable poles so I just lowered by pushing the poles in the earth, measured, tightened, repeated in stages til lowering stopped working - what happens eventually is the fly loses tension and will become flappy at about 105cm pole length. In that mode the fly is as close to the ground as the fly on the TN LC.

Edited by nigelhealy on 04/18/2012 21:32:08 MDT.

Roger,
In the unlikely event that you steeled yourself long enough to go back to this thread, or perhaps had to in order to do your police thing, I must confess that I am just too lazy too go back and dig out your definition of freestanding. It's because I'm spending too much time on the computer when I should be doing other more constructive things, like sleeping. But as I recall, it was something about a freestanding tent being one that assumes its final shape without the aid of the pegs (that eventually must go in anyway, along with guy lines, of course, to anchor the thing and keep the wind from blowing it over or away). Sorry I can't do better right now, but I've got to get my wood crib rebuilt, the firewood stacked for next winter, and a new pack done in time for a good backpack before the bugs arrive in force here. At my stage of development, it has become necessary to redesign, rebuild, and drop a few pounds of pack weight every year in order to stay in the game.

Note to Mike S: Having had similar experiences and witnessed the same patterns and practices you have, I understand how you feel; however, this site originates from the US of A. Cowboys, greed is good, and all that. Toughen up. Goodness and purity come to us later, if at all. If you stick to the facts and merits of the gear, and not the personalities, threads like this one will be much more rewarding, maybe even helpful to Mik, who began it with a simple question.

Hi Sam

Yeah, I could find references to 'my definition', but I could not find the source. Yet another good myth? :-)

Ah well, no matter. As someone else wrote (approximately), 'freestanding = kite'.

Cheers

Samuel,

that reminds me of the fellow that stood up on stage one morning at Woodstock after a proprietor's hamburger stand burned down and he said into the microphone something like:

"even though he is a greedy capitalist hamburger peddlar please donate some $ for him to rebuild his stand"

Always figured he had the munchies and compromised his left-wing views so he could get some food Lol. Some good lessons learned that morning.

BTW I am the one that said long ago that a free-standing tent is called a kite after watching my buddies do the same thing after repeated warnings about aerodynamics and specific gravity.

Why is a free-standing a kite? I can imagine two reasons, if you don't peg it down it down (at all or properly) it maintains it shape rather than flattens and can be blown away, and in general the free-standing comes from hopes which have a greater proportion of vertical surfaces.
Are those the reasons?

The parallel I draw with geodesic vs tunnel/tarp is hang gliders vs paragliders. Hang gliders are more aerodynamic, have a faster maximum airspeed, and are typically more twitchy to control. Paragliders, on the other hand, form a wing during forward motion by means of air pressure differences between the under side and the upper side of the canopy. The paraglider canopy will only fly, and carry its pilot, if the wing is formed before launch. It is much less efficient at using lift than a hang glider. Conversely this makes the paraglider more stable, being less susceptible to quick changes in conditions.

Stuart. I don't understand the aerodynamic principals to tent geometry you are describing. Are you saying that a tunnel/tarp is better?

I thought a geodesic shape was more about more useful internal space with adding snow-loading capability, the height is available for more of the width with relatively short sections of unsupported fabric? Geodesics all seem very heavy to me, more a mountain basecamp type solution than thru-hike solution, but I never tried one.

I had a tunnel once, it would bounce and flop all over the place wacking my head with hard pole, but it did have a clever tensioner which basically turned it back into an A-frame at the hoops, but it still had a long unsupported area which was challenging to make tense and the bathtub sagged so much my wife used it and woke inside a swimming pool. I tried it for 3 nights, my wife for 2 nights and we sold it. That was called a Vango TBS Spirit 200+ . Look at this video of all the sagging wrinkled flysheet, apply wind in your mind's eye....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE4eq6TlbGM

Single-hope structures I prefer to tunnel just from hands-on experience, I preferred the hoop ends at head-foot as the vertical side it makes is then benefiting the headroom when lying down and harder to touch fly in the night at the foot end. The downside is when you sit up your head has a very narrow area to move in.



If this geometry was made in simpler lighter design, with plenty of height, it would be brilliant. Extending to two vestibules would be a doddle.


Not many tents like that, and TT doesn't do any, although the Moment's optional hoop has a little bit of that benefit. Hoops traversing the left/right, often leaves a long supported area right where the head is, add with lightweight fabrics and its like sleeping next to a crisp packet (think Neoair 360degs around you!). The TT has this geometry with the Moment and the Scarp but both use quieter heavier fabrics and optional hoop support.


Fundamentally, I prefer classic A-frame shapes, straight lines less to move, having the height in just one central area is simply easy to live in.

There is a slight worry with the Notch beyond what I posted in other threads, the unsupported area between the poles, its only a small tiny worry but I was thinking it might benefit from a section of pole there, but that is more complication, more weight, etc , just unsupported areas tend to cause flapping noise.

"Third, hopefully the OP is still around given that was his FIRST POST and apart from the thread drift, perhaps we can simply post 'possibilities' to his question and get away from all of the 'spy games' stuff. What say you, Mike?"

Yeah I am still here. I am on 3 cycling forums apart from this camping one and all of them at some point or another have the occasional thread that degenerate into slinging matches. One difference is that the moderators eventually put a lock on the thread and don't let it get worse and worse.

Hi Nigel

> Why is a free-standing a kite? I can imagine two reasons, if you don't peg it down it down
> (at all or properly) it maintains it shape rather than flattens and can be blown away,

You got it in one with the bolded bit. More than a few people have reported that their free-standing pop-up has taken off in the wind, like a kite. Barbed wire fences and thorn trees have been mentioned in the same breath.

Actually, my objection is mainly to the way some tents are sold as 'free-standing' with no warnings. That advertising is, to my mind, grossly irresponsible, and can be a serious danger to a novice. In my opinion, all tents should be secured with stakes and guys.


Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 04/19/2012 23:35:00 MDT.

Nigel, the late hour is causing me to believe I'm a lot more coherent than I really am. In my reply I equated free-standing with geodesic. Maybe that was a flaw. Still, the hang glider analogy was that something set up for maximum aerodynamic efficiency has to be tied down when at rest, otherwise the slightest gust will cause it to be picked up by the wind with minimal effort. I've witnessed 10+ lb freestanding tents loaded with gear do just that when they weren't pegged down, because they were taut and there was no give to the elements. The paraglider, laying down on the ground, is much more difficult to move en masse because it has no shape of its own. The structure comes when it's flying, and to launch a paraglider takes practice and purpose - it can't really be done accidentally. Remove a peg or two from a tunnel tent or a tarp and it'll flap around in the wind but it's much less likely than a free-standing tent to get picked up and sent tumbling around over a long distance.

Edited by lotuseater on 04/19/2012 23:47:34 MDT.

I'm the moderator of a forum with >3500 members and I seldom have to expel personalizing members, I think its approx annual I apply the hammer, a polite warning a little more often. Sorry you had to experience this here.

So, what's your current concern single vs double wall shelter? I would offer looking at your posts, the shelter is only part of the total system, the other two being your sleeping bag and your mat. Single-wall TT will tend to not suffer condensation so much, but if you do get into a humid cool situation it will drip on you, and be a bit more prone to spitting rain so consider what is on the outside of your sleeping bag, and be generally cooler (good in hot, bad in cold) so pair with the thickness of your bag. Apart from that... both single / dual can be made to work, as you've witnessed with all the views expressed.

What is your current thinking of your selection, and why?

My individual view is the TT Notch is worth consideration as it can be lowered to cover wind, raised to cover low-wind / condensation and is long with a high roof to match your height. I offer that point of view without an agenda or bias, apart from I just bought a Notch so I'm emerging from the honeymoon and not entered the divorce stage.

Roger, I've never camped in snow or ice or on rock, always above-freezing earth. I was wondering how I'd cope with adverse pegging conditions. I had an idea a "free standing" tent would solve a lot of the problems for me - keep its basic tent shape without pegs and I only have to solve the tent-keep-on-ground problem of which I was my thinking my body weight primarily.

From UK, I live in California and I'm preparing to camp October onwards, 10,000ft is...... new territory for me....

I'm currently thinking the TT Notch probably can do cool (30-60F) fine but I'm thinking another solution for -20F +20F

In the UK, it never snows when its "cold", the biggest altitude is 4500ft and cold comes from across a warm ocean. The USA however....

Currently, I probably only got 2 things I need, a sleeping bag I think can do -20C and...... a willingness to give a try.

I was thinking.... the Scarp1 for winter? Due to double-wall little-mesh and crossing-poles for snow loading?

Single-skin in cold. Baffling. Not saying wrong, simply baffling, beyond my experience.

> Single-hope structures I prefer to tunnel just from hands-on experience, I preferred the hoop ends at head-foot

The problem with the single hoop on the long side is the hoop needs to be very long, hence relatively heavy and (most important) vulnerable. It also tends to bend sideways along its length when under heavy tension.

> Not many tents like that, and TT doesn't do any

Isn't that precisely the TT Rainbow? Single hoop on the long side

You are correct, I'd forgot that one. It only offers a mesh inner and single vestibule. Lightweight option 34oz with liner. Double Rainbow provides two vestibules. Now I look at it again ..... good specifications.

What are folk meaning by 'performance'?

The only major difference is that a double wall will hide any condensation, and adds a little warmth.

+1 agreed on your definition.

The Notch is double wall for the same weight as single wall Contrail. Different shapes though.

Just looking for the lightest solo shelters, from memory.... the Scarp is the only part-mesh double-mesh TT. The Notch, SS1 partially solid lower sides options. Moment, Rainbow liner options is all-mesh inner. Contrail, Sublite don't offer liners. So I'd tend to say for hot+dry its the Sublite, for warm+wet its the Contrail, for cooler is the Moment, Notch, SS1 and for cold its the Scarp.

There is quite a spectrum of individual preferences, there are those using single-wall in lower temps that I'd deem appropriate for double-wall.

Someone start a gun thread.
I want to shoot myself.

A guy at work has 26 guns Mike, will I ask can you borrow one ;-)

would that be a semi-auto pistol or a revolver. I wonder which is better.

One with two barrels instead of one ;)

"One with two barrels instead of one ;)"


Gotcha covered- :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-DGaNmtA0

BM

"So, what's your current concern single vs double wall shelter? I would offer looking at your posts, the shelter is only part of the total system, the other two being your sleeping bag and your mat. Single-wall TT will tend to not suffer condensation so much, but if you do get into a humid cool situation it will drip on you, and be a bit more prone to spitting rain so consider what is on the outside of your sleeping bag, and be generally cooler (good in hot, bad in cold) so pair with the thickness of your bag. Apart from that... both single / dual can be made to work, as you've witnessed with all the views expressed.

What is your current thinking of your selection, and why?

My individual view is the TT Notch is worth consideration as it can be lowered to cover wind, raised to cover low-wind / condensation and is long with a high roof to match your height. I offer that point of view without an agenda or bias, apart from I just bought a Notch so I'm emerging from the honeymoon and not entered the divorce stage."

Well when I first learned about the TT tents it was via the Squall 2. I thought the Moment was the tent for me but then the Rainbow with the optional inner liner (to stop condensation) was the answer....but now the Notch seems to be the deal for me. I don't use trecking poles but the poles sold by TT to hold the tent up will take the Notch to just under 1kg and still retaining 'some sort' of a double wall. That's if I don't just use a branch I find at the camping area.

I don't think I would put up with condensation dripping on me even if it only happened on occasion. The other concern is that I can see that the TT tents are designed with a high ventilation in mind to combat the condensation issue but would that not make these tents 'feel' colder? In a high wind condition I am more concerned of freezing than the tent blowing over to be honest.

I am 195cm tall at 84 kg so I am tall but not a big man. The Notch's 81cm wide floor would definitely be enough but I also like having my gear inside with me and the Rainbow would accommodate for that though at a slight weight penalty.

On a recent trip (when I was still using a BlackWolf 3/4 3.8cm self inflating mat) in a rainforest after rain I froze through the night even though I was wearing my thermals and jumper inside my 300 down bag....the heat just escaped the body so after that I got an Exped Synth UL mat. Having said that I live in Brisbane Australia and will never use the tent I buy in snow conditions.

Ease of set up is not really a concern looking at the videos of the TT tents....they are all much easier than my current tent.

Thanks for your time Nigel :).

You have Franco's videos of the Notch, here's one of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YpTI0SeiXQE

I'm fitting a guy attachment near the pole apex that will give me some more flexibility / ease of pitch / wind strength. I forgot to request that in the order.

I'm thinking Notch may not be for you because you are tall, your body will take the room at the ends my intention is to stow my gear. Do you have a packed weight/size maximum? The SS1 , when the partial-solid inner becomes available, probably sounds more like what you'd want, wider for your kit, your tallness will tend to make you sleep diagonal and your kit in one/both of the corner.

BTW I had a specific bike pannier which narrowed my choices. This is my bike pannier, the Notch, 30F rated sleeping bag, stove, mat, comes to 9L of the 20L.

"I'm thinking Notch may not be for you because you are tall, your body will take the room at the ends my intention is to stow my gear. Do you have a packed weight/size maximum? The SS1 , when the partial-solid inner becomes available, probably sounds more like what you'd want, wider for your kit, your tallness will tend to make you sleep diagonal and your kit in one/both of the corner."

I am coming from a 1.85kg tent so to get to or near OR even under the 1kg mark is a real move forward for me. I can see the SS1 has plenty of vestirbule room and I suppose I can change my view and learn to keep my gear in there rather than inside the sleeping quarters with me. I still have plenty of time till August when our next trip is planned for to get the tent choice right....

Its just the beginning I bet for you. The weight saving is probably even more if it then lets you move down a size in your backpack. The Notch is in region of 2.5L packed volume, how does that compare to your existing tent? (measure the diameter in cm, half it make the radius, square that number, multiply by PI 3.142 and multiply by the length, divide by 1000. e.g. Notch is 41x9cm, 9/2=4.5, 4.5x4.5=20.25 x 3.142=63 x 41= 2483 / 1000 = 2.5L).

If you're looking to shrink pack to match the shrinked kit inside, there'a Golite sale at the moment. They are selling tents e.g. 1-man 1Kg for $120 delivered if you review an item and get discount coupon, see other threads. A Jam 50 is a fairly middle-of-the-road pack which should do through into winter, can get for $74.17 delivered.

Hi Nigel

> I only have to solve the tent-keep-on-ground problem of which I was my thinking my
> body weight primarily.
People have been rolled while inside their unstaked free-standing tent. And what about when you step outside to go to the loo?

I suggest that what you will need in winter will be mainly governed by what winds you are expecting. Snow loading may come second. A Scarp is nice, but in severe winds?

> In the UK, it never snows when its "cold"
Errr ... I have a lovely photo of my wife Sue standing in the snow one morning, midway up the Pennine Way. That was up on the hills somewhere I think.

Cheers

Roger,the Scarp has a "UK" configuration with a lower fly, there are the crossing poles and many add additional guying points. I don't know the details but some reading this do. From reading the owners' thread on OutdoorsMagic, I'd say it is proving very sturdy once properly guyed.

There was an interesting thread a few months back (started by familyguy I think) about condensation forming inside a quilt under certain conditions. There was some talk in this thread about how a double walled set up would alleviate this by moving the dew point outside the bag.

Yes, I remember that being mentioned in another forum too. Yes that makes good physics, if you warm the inside of the shelter it will tend to move the dew point further away. *TEND* but not guarantee. It also depends what is the source of the damp. Damp from the human, the double wall will tend to keep that nearer, but damp from the air outside, double wall will tend to keep it out.

Mik, I had the Notch out today to seam-seal and I widened the poles and lowered the poles ak "storm mode". About 33inches is the useful widest you can get. I could actually fit a 36" stick inside but its protroding into the vestibule.

Video here

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m421/NigelHealy/Notch/?action=view&current=MVI_1932.mp4

You can also see more photos of "storm mode"

"The Notch is in region of 2.5L packed volume, how does that compare to your existing tent? "

My Denali is 17cm x 45cm which by my calculations is just over 10L!! It needs to go!

Thanks for the mentioning of the GoLight website although their 1kg tent is very similar in design to my current one. I really liked the Rainbow TT shelter as I can see it being more useful features wise and I really like that you can sit in the middle of it (highest apex point) and have and entire vestibule area in front of you to cook and do things in. Plus it's got an optional liner in it to aid in condensation issues not dripping on me.

That Jam50L looks the goods weight wise for a framed pack!!

Thanks for the options. Much appreciated.

Mik :).

@Sam Farrington: “One problem you will find with the Tarptents and their close relatives, is that the silnylon floor is often suspended, or hung, rather than pulled solidly taut inside the tent. This can be a problem when the floor starts slipping around, when you move, or on sloped ground. Even if you can adjust to the single wall, this slipping can be vary off-putting to people who are used to more conventional tents.”

@Franco: “That is not the case with the StratoSpire1, the Rainbow or the Notch.
(in fact all of the TT have a clipped to the end/corner floor. However you can also un-clip them)
Here is a photo I have just taken[….] Anyway you can also see that the floor is clipped to the poles in the middle and also to the PitchLock triangles at the end."

Apologies for another hijacking of this thread, but I’m looking for some help here. Condensation has not been any kind of trouble at all for me with a TT, but I have noticed a fair amount of slipping around in the inner of my SS1. I pitched on what was unperceivably sloped ground and found myself sliding down toward my feet more than a few times in the middle of the night. A possible solution here (besides even more carefully selecting my pitch site) is to put seam sealant on the inside bottom of the syl floor (which is already done on my SS1) and on the bottom of my sleeping pads, but I’d rather not. The SS1 does clip to the end/corner floor, as Franco has kindly indicated early in this thread. But the material connecting that clip is elastic with a lot of give (as indicated, I hope clearly, in the photos below). So Sam’s characterization of TTs not being “pulled solidy taut inside the tent” is accurate to me as one having moved recently from a more “conventional” tent.

Another distinction between the SS1 and the Notch is that the floor “clips” to hiking poles (with Velcro, I think) on the Notch and NOT on the SS1. At least, this is the case with my SS1. I don’t own a Notch and haven’t played with one, but perhaps the “slipping around” is sufficiently mitigated with both the elastic clips AND the Velcro-attached poles. Not so with my SS1. I’d consider modifying my SS1 myself to be able to do the same as the Notch, but I’m hoping to hear suggestions/thoughts for a solution from much more enlightened minds than mine here.

I don’t think this is a definitive “problem” with TTs, per se, considering this is the very first season the SS1 has been out. I’m absolutely wild about my SS1 and can’t wait to use it again for my next trip in a couple weeks. Design oversight? “Feature” (in the software development sense)? Perhaps…

Regardless, anyone have any suggestions/thoughts? Thank you!

If you're sliding on the silnylon, put some silicone caulk diluted with mineral spirits (1:1?) - I've done that with some success. Or Permatex Flowable Sealant ot McNett.

I covered maybe 10% of the surface in irregular blobs, smeared around

yeah I did that too. The video from TT shows to do that last as the spirit/silicone has thickened after doing the seams, presumably so it spreads less and so make more pronounced ridges. I did my floor last night but I think it hadn't thickened enough and became just painted lines. However, it looked exactly like the video.

ISTR reading some member say putting some drops underneath their mat???

Video at http://tarptent.com/seamseal.html begin at 1min30sec. The Amazon video streaming service sucks best to download the file and play locally

http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.tarptent.com/video/seamseal.mp4

"I really liked the Rainbow TT shelter as I can see it being more useful features wise and I really like that you can sit in the middle of it (highest apex point) and have and entire vestibule area in front of you to cook and do things in. Plus it's got an optional liner in it to aid in condensation issues not dripping on me."

Your current tent is hugging the ground more than any of the TT you're considering. Reminder, the liner for the Rainbow is mesh, it won't blunt a windy chill as much as the more solid liner you get for Scarp, Notch, SS1. Everything else you said fine.

I don't know how long Golite sales are going to last, it seems they been doing them for 6 months now, but Jam 50 is a good pack for the money and you'll likely be pairing a smaller pack with the 7L smaller tent. Most who lighten+shrink their kit can get 1KG lighter from the pack itself. Golite USA only though.... I think....

Thanks for this suggestion, but I've considered the seam sealant approach to remedying sliding on the floor of a TT and some has been applied to the floor of my SS1 already. I'm disinclined to do the same on the bottoms of my sleeping pads as well. Any other thoughts?

I put silicone/mineral spirits on my bivy but I still slid around, so I reapplied, less mineral spirits in mixture and I put more on.

Better now. I'm using it on a few trips and if at some point I decide it's still too slippery I'l put more on.

It has been said that double wall adds warmth

I appreciate the comments, but I also hate anecdotal information like that

It would be interesting to have data - several tents on the same trip, some single wall, some double, maybe some with mesh and some with more solid fabric, some with floors.

What was the temperature outside, and inside each tent.

Then, how much does the extra fabric weigh vs how much would it weigh to add a little extra insulation to your sleeping bag.

I'm betting it would weigh less to add insulation : )

Another thing is wind speed inside and outside the tent. I've been trying to measure wind speed inside my tarp with raised edges 3 inches. I have an ADC Wind to measure. It measures only down to about 1 MPH. So far, I haven't got any measurements (above 1 MPH) but I haven't been in heavy wind condition. I suspect that even if it's 30 MPH outside, it will be less than 1 MPH inside.

If you take Roger's chart of wind speed vs height above ground, the wind speed is way reduced in the first 3 inches. And then the flow will spread out inside the tarp so the wind speed will be reduced even more.

Then, the next thing is, how much insulation would you have to add to your sleeping bag to make up for any added wind.

I suspect that adding a double wall - solid or mesh - won't decrease wind speed inside tent/tarp enough to justify adding the weight - better to just have a slightly heavier sleeping bag.

It would be interesting to see data.