I think it is more difficult to raise kids today than it was 50 years ago. There are so many things that are easily accessible than there was when I was a kid; or at least more of it going on. Drugs, gangs, inappropriate content on the Web, child molesters, etc.

I raised two kids (with my wife) who are now adults. Although they didn't come with Owner's Manuals, we did okay. They never got into trouble and were self-sufficient once they got out of high school.

Also, I had my kids when I was in my mid to late 30's, so how I raised them was a lot different than how some of their friends were raised... seeing that I was a generation ahead of some of these parents.

When I was a kid I learned risk assessment at an early age. I made choices, and the wrong ones ended up in a good spanking or "the belt." We had corporal punishment in school... with a wooden paddle. And the more ingenious teachers & administrators had paddles with air holes drilled in them to increase the speed at impact. And of course a swat at school meant you got more when you got home... there was none of this "the teacher was wrong or the teacher doesn't understand the special needs of my kid" stuff. If you got into trouble at school, you faced the consequences at home. So whenever I would break a parental rule, I would weight the potential outcomes before I proceeded. Sometimes I got caught and beaten, sometimes I didn't. Oh, I know this sounds so brutal... but it worked.

I learned how to surf before I really learned to swim well. But then my parents didn't know I was surfing. They told us to leave the house in the morning, come home for lunch, leave the house again and come home for dinner. They did not say surfing was out :) it didn't cross their mind that a 10 year old kid would save money to buy a surfboard and hitch hike to the beach every day. I got beat the first time they found out. They made me take swimming lessons, and then I was allowed to surf.

We played baseball, football, hide and seek, etc. in the street barefooted and had to dodge passing cars. Our parents figured we could watch out for cars.

We didn't go to doctors unless we were really injured. I have a 6" scar on my left shin, the result of jumping off a roof and missing the block wall I had planned on landing on. Got a beating for that one, a little Mercurochrome on it, and a "it isn't bad enough to go to the doctor, doctors cost money" explanation for my question about stitches.

Our cars had metal dashboards and no seat belts. One of my brothers has a nice scar on his forehead from that one.

No video games for us -- they didn't exist. We played army, cowboys & Indians, and other games in empty fields or on the street. We made swords out of sticks and did "real" battle. Rocks made great hand grenades, and sometimes hit their intended target. That could get you a beating.

No skateboards in those days. We took apart strap-on skates, which had steel wheels and nailed them to wooden boards. Of course when a steel wheel hits a small pebble, the wheel stops but you don't. Lots of cuts, scrapes, bruises and bumps from our boards.

We used to race wooden cars down "Killer Hill." Front axle was a 2X4 and steering was a rope from end to end of the axle. We would nail a stick to the side and it was our brake system. You were pretty much guaranteed that if you car could last more than a couple runs it would eventually self-destruct and you would suffer road rash. Road rash was our "badge of courage." And of course road rash would get you a beating once you got home.

Our parents knew we were going to get cuts and scrapes -- that is what kids do. And to be honest, my kids saw more deaths of their friends growing up, than I did as a kid.

When I raised kids, their rules were much stricter than those of their friends... but there were consequences to my rules -- a spanking. Never had to use this but once. This got much better behavioral results than the "time outs" their friends were threatened with. Time Out... pffftttt.

My kids expected us to be parents. That meant we were there to teach them, give them advice, set boundaries, feed them, clothe them, teach them morals and ethics, help them learn their school lessons if they needed help, and to love them. Our job was to prepare them to become adults. Not to be their friend, but to be their parent.

We expected them to work hard at school -- to give it their best effort, not achieve a certain grade. We expected them to participate in activities outside of school-- they chose the activities and we supported them. There was no staying in the house after school watching TV or playing with video games. We expected them to wear the clothes we chose for them, not what they felt was appropriate. We decided what was appropriate in their lives, not them. We encouraged them to take risks... but they had guidelines. We expected them to stay out of trouble. We also expected them to look out for each other, and to defend each other even if force was needed. We expected them to make good decisions based on the values we taught them. And as they got older, we expanded what they could do without supervision, they had been taught right from wrong. But wrong decisions have consequences, and they knew it. We expected them to go to college, and that they pay 1/2 of the cost. But going to college was up to them, they were adults when that time came. Both graduated from college.

I remember one incident that really shows the difference in the "new Parenting" in my mind. When I was about 48, I got stuck taking a bunch of boys (my son's soccer team) to a small amusement park with another parent, who was quite a bit younger than me. It was an all day affair, and at the end of the day all the other parents were to show up at the Pizza joint at the park. Well, I couldn't take the dysfunctional behavior after a couple hours. They were all over the place and did not follow instructions. By the time we got to the Pizza place, and were waiting for the other parents, my patience was gone. I lined up all the boys against a wall with their noses touching the wall. I told them if anyone moved, I would spank them. Amazing... they all stood perfectly still and silent. When the parents arrived, they were shocked. Several threatened to sue me... seems most of these kids had therapists and would need additional counseling -- unbelievable. One lady told me that was no way to treat children -- it is bad for their mental health. And my reply was, "Ma'am your kid does not have the capacity for mental health, he is not a child, he is an animal."

Not saying all parents of the younger generations are bad, but overall I don't think much of many of them. And this is why I got out of the retail business in 1998. I just got tired of too many young people entering the work force who were unable to function at work. Of course there were some great young people coming into the work force, but those were a minority. Alas....

"I'd agree with Paul that its not the end of the world."

Interesting tangent. It's an angry enough world without parents acting on negative energy from judgement - I wish there were more discretion in how people (even strangers) voice their criticisms about parenting choices

Hi Nick

> And my reply was, "Ma'am your kid does not have the capacity for mental health, he is
> not a child, he is an animal."
Just out of curiosity - were you ever asked to shepherd the kids again?

Second Q: ever get any feedback from your son about what the other kids thought of the exercise?

Cheers

Roger,

No, I was never asked to chaperon again :) -- but a little story later.

Regarding Q2: That is VERY interesting and perceptive on your part. My son was also frustrated with his teammates. He thought the end of day exercise was hilarious. As a matter of fact, he couldn't wait to get home and tell his mother and sister what I had done.

Here is my take on all of this. Kids want to do well and they want to experiment and challenge. That is human nature. They also have a sense of right and wrong. They also lack prejudice. These kids knew they were acting poorly and a couple apologized to Joe later. They did not expect an adult to hold them accountable for their behavior. Actually my wife and I were pretty popular with the kids because we expected them to act like young adults and when they did, we treated them like adults. What kid doesn't want to be treated like an adult, especially when they have earned the right? My son and daughter's friends liked to go camping with us (if they could get an invite). They knew there were rules, but if they followed them they would get to do a lot of really neat things they had never done before. Camping was not a popular thing to do where we lived, but many of the kids wanted to go with us... even though we didn't have an expensive motor home like their parents and they would have to sleep outside!

Also (not inferred from your post) I do not go around telling others how to raise their kids. It is none of my business. However in any situation where silence or inaction on my part could be construed as approval and have a negative effect on my family, I speak my piece. And I would be very remiss if I did not point out that the kids' mother was a better influence than me. She did a wonderful job as a mom.

When these boisterous kids got into high school, a couple parents did seek me out for advice when they had serious problems with their kids. But what could I say? At that point "tough love" might be in order, and their inability or poor choices (not necessarily their intent) had gotten them to that point. The kids were not inherently bad, it was a matter of poor parenting. Sometimes it is hard to undo, what you have sown for many years.

Now for the rest of the story...

When my daughter started Junior High (6th grade), which is about 11 years old in the states, she wanted to try out for the Cheer Leading Team. This was more of a club, a quasi-school sponsored activity. We were living in Orange County, CA (think "The OC" if you ever saw that TV program). She was not very athletic and we were not thrilled about Cheer, as it has some serious problems. But we said yes she could try, because there was no way on earth should she could make the team. She worked her butt off and made the team, MUCH to our surprise. We then found out it was very expensive, they practice 6 days a week, 50 weeks per year, plus gymnastics lessons twice a week after cheer practice. We were concerned that so much time would distract from school work. Her mother didn't want to let her participate when we found all of this out. Neither did I, but we had given her permission try out; and now was time to keep our word. She was the only 6th grader to make it. Most the other girls were in the 8th grade. The team had a successful season, and at the end of the year the mothers decided to take the girls to a resort hotel in San Diego as a reward. My first response was, "What's up with that idea?" Neither of us were thrilled about this, but let her go against our better judgement. Unfortunately some of the 8th grade girls brought some porno films with them. Apparently the OC mothers were at the pool and all the girls were upstairs in one room and someone popped a porno into the VCR. When the movie started, my daughter stood up and said the movie was inappropriate and she was leaving, inviting anyone else who knew it was wrong or were uncomfortable to follow her. She did not tell us about the incident. Somehow the school found out (it was a Catholic school) and we were called into a conference where we were told what happened. Two things; she did the right thing and did not tell anyone. We still don't know how the school found out. I am still proud of her today for how she handled that situation, being the youngest girl in a very tough circumstance for her.

Several years later my son's High School cross country team was one of the best in the state. Joe was a Junior, so he was almost 17. They were invited to a meet in New York, which was 3,000 miles away from home. I went to the meet as a parent on my own dime, not as a chaperon. On Saturday night the coaches decided to take the team to Times Square (boys and girls teams). We got there about 10 PM and the coach told the kids they could go see the sights, but had to meet back at midnight. Several parents were very unhappy about this. Two pulled me aside and asked me to say something to the coach. My answer was that I was not worried about Joe, he would not get into trouble and he would watch out for the others. They said, yeah we know Joe will behave, but what about the others?

Now if they didn't trust their kids, then they should tag along with them was my answer. But they didn't want to make their kids feel bad or show mistrust. At this point, I asked Joe to come over and asked him what he wanted to do. Hang out with his friends or with me. He said he wanted to hang out with his friends, but knew I would probably find something really neat to do, which he might regret. So off he went. Although it was late, I was able to go to the top of the Empire State Building and then go see the NY City Library (part of the move Ghost Busters was filmed there). Joe was ticked he missed those :)

If I had any fear about his safety, I would not have allowed him to go without me. But he had proven many times he could be trusted and that he made good decisions in difficult circumstances when they occurred, just like his sister.

Anyway -- long story, short -- as parents it is up to us to teach our kids and prepare them for life. And we need to work at it, because sooner or later they have to fend for themselves. Just as animals in the wild do. It is survival. You cannot put that off, and IMO the sooner you teach them values and independence the better off the kids are. Our job as parents is to develop character, and there is no guarantee that we will be successful at this endeavor, there are so many external factors one cannot control. You cannot protect them forever. Life is a risk anyway. No guarantees and we have to depart this wonderful planet sooner or later.


And the kid I called an animal? Last I heard he was in and out of jail. Drugs, as I predicted :(

Sorry for the long post. I think kids are great. They just need a chance to grow and become self-sufficient.

Hi Nick

No arguments.

Long ago our younger daughter in Primary School (K-6) used to play with a couple of other kids on our farm. The other kids were keen to be here. One of the young boys commented to my wife one day: "I like playing here, because you are always home." Yeah, both his parents got home late in the evening.

Cheers

Nick said

>Actually my wife and I were pretty popular with the kids because we expected them to act like young adults and when they did, we treated them like adults. What kid doesn't want to be treated like an adult, especially when they have earned the right?

Nick I'm in 100% agreement with you on that idea.

When I was a camp counselor for preteens I gave my little kids more respect then most people gave the teenagers. We were off learning survival skills and carving with knives. The teenagers were kinda aimlessly hang out. I actually had a teenager request to go back into the little kids cabin with me. His reason was we "had more fun." Coming from a cocky teenager I thought that was very interesting.

Another time at summer camp I caught a 11 year old bully I'll call Shaggy. Shaggy was physically bullying a smaller boy. I spun Shaggy around and read him the riot act. When I got done Shaggy was crying. The other staff thought I'd over-reacted but I had Shaggy's attention.

Needless to say Shaggy didn't bully again that week but there was more to the story. Shaggy's counselor was a young "Know it All" who never should have been hired. He never disciplined the kids. Shaggy saw the guy's incompetance and instictivley rebelled against him. Pretty soon they two were driving each other crazy.

I guessed that Shaggy needed a change of scenery so I arranged for Shaggy to switch from a horse class (where he was a terror) to my Outdoor Skills class. Before he joined the class I pulled Shaggy aside and told him things were different in my class. If he acted like an adult he'd be treated like an adult not a little kid, if he disobeyed there would be quick consequences. He was PERFECT in my class. He always listened and was repectful. Toward the end he came over and asked if I could be his counselor next year.

Shaggy wasn't a dumb kid, he was actually mature for his age. He just didn't like being under adults he had no respect for and he hated being talked down to like he was in first grade. He responded well to me because I'd scared him and demanded his respect and I treated him like a young adult.

Shaggy came back the next year and did a lot better. Actually he seemed somewhat frustrated by the immature kids in his cabin. He'd come over and hang out with me and the little kids, apparently we were more fun then his peers. Since he already knew all the survival skills I was teaching I used him as my assistant and had him help the new kids out. He positively loved that and was great with the little kids. To me he was a young adult who could set an example for new kids, for his counselor he was dumb 12 year old. No wonder he liked hanging out with me!

The key with Shaggy and all of the other kids like that was that I set clear boundaries and then treated him like a little adult. Most kids above a certain age respond extremely well to clear boundaries and a sense of trust as long as they stay within the boundaries.

This was really important with troubled kids in wilderness therapy. The funny thing is most people think of such kids as being rebellious and out of control. Actually they really liked it when a strong willed adult was in charge. If the kids felt like an adult they trusted was firmly in charge of the situation they were much happier and better behaved.

I remember the fear of the paddle of controlling kids it worked. I was getting it about twice a week in elementary school for defending myself from bullies.

When I was in junior high the giant of a man vice principal would walk the halls at class changes slapping that solid oak paddle with holes drilled in it in his against his free hand. Scaring the hell out of the most of the kids the first week I was picked on by a bully I defended myself and won as usual.
So we both go in to the vice principal to explain our story the vice principal say who want to be first to be paddled. I said I would go first he whacks me hard and I turn around and said "Is that all you got to the vice principal." he whacked me twice really hard. I turn around and the bully is shaking and crying and I laughed at him because I was not crying or complaining. The bully never bullied me or another kid after that day. Corporal punishment worked kept the student body in line because they had fear of the paddle.
My father never really punish me for the fighting because he set the ground rules I had to take two punches to the face before I could defend myself.

My family used grounding most of the time but some times if the offense was so bad you would get swatted.
A funny Corporal punishment story when I was in ninth grade I got in trouble. I don't remember what I did but my Father was so mad he said go out and get a switch instead of the belt. We just had a heavy Santa ana wind storm and about 15 foot branch fell down off the tree in the backyard. So I dragged in the 15 foot tree branch in to the house he just started laughing at me. I did not get punished. He realized he was done with swatting with me I was just to old for it. I just was grounded or had things taken away from me instead.
Terry

Edited by socal-nomad on 04/24/2012 18:33:06 MDT.

21st Century News Flash:
Contemporary pedagogy frowns upon hitting/belting/paddling/switching/spanking or otherwise using pain or the threat of pain on children to make them behave.

For good reason.

I dunno Craig I'm real skeptical of studies like that because there are so many variables I don't see how you can conclusively "prove" that one non-abusive discipline style works better then another.
I'd argue the more important factor seemed is whether adults are involved enough with their kids to see problems and deal with them often enough to have a detering effect. When I was very little (like 2 or 3) my parents started punishing me when I'd disobey. By the time I was old enough to remember it was ingrained in my little head that disobeying grown ups was a no win situation. So I obeyed until I started to internalized the values they were trying to teach me.

My mom spanked me for the last time when I was 10. She thought she was hurting me (I was faking a painful groan) but then saw me trying to hide a giggle. It just didn't hurt! She walked out disgusted and that was the end of that.

My dad used corporal punishment. He also said that for him it was the easiest and quickest way to get us to obey, but he believed that there were better, more thought out ways to get results. He knew he was limited in resources. I appreciated his honesty and humility.

My Dad was a sheet metal worker all his working life. His callused, large, claw like hands full of nicks, cuts and the occasional burn marks were far more fearsome than any paddle.

Dad also had a fiery temper for various reasons (since gone away also for various reasons. Being recently retired also helps...)

Needless to say, I think my brothers and I will shy away from corporal punishment. My brother for his daughter. My other brother and I for any children we may have.

A lot of things done in the 'old days' were not necessarily better.

Corporal punishment, at least I think, is one of them.

I think there is a big difference in using spanking properly (without anger, as a tool, with thought and consistency, and as a last resort) and spanking as a means to express your anger as a parent, to take out your frustrations, and as a short cut way of parenting. The attitude and care of the parent separates the spanking as a lesson from spanking as a beating form of abuse.

Like most things in life I don't believe in one extreme or the other.

I am with you on this, Paul. I have 3 boys and it just never felt like I needed to hit them. And I'm proud of how my sample size of 3 turned out. I think kids are often hit when the parents are frustrated. My theory was to have punishment take place with very little discussion when the kids(or I) get emotional.
On the other hand, I am a believer in allowing kids a lot of freedom to make mistakes while they are under my roof so they have some idea how to deal with them. I want them to have experience with dealing with mistakes before they leave the house, which I learned happens quicker than expected.

I look at this as a tool in your kit. Similar to a compass or probably more like a first aid kit. The goal is to avoid situations where you get lost or injured, and never to use either to get yourself out of a bad situation. We hike and rely of our planning, knowledge and skill to get us through every hike. Same goes with punishment, if we are good parents, hopefully we will never need to use it. And we should never use it out of anger.

In the combined 36 years of raising two children, I only had to spank one of them once. That was more of a "wake up call" and totally unexpected by the child. It sent the message that bad behavior has consequences. I did not physically hurt my child, but I think the fact that the child had disappointed me, had a bigger influence. In some ways, parenting is like the military. A soldier respects the rank of those above them, but it takes a real leader to get them into combat as a unit. That respect, for a leader, is earned. Parents need to earn the respect of their children. That is done by setting the rules, communicating (both ways), explaining why the rules are beneficial, holding them accountable, applying rules & punishment equitably and consistently. If we do a good job, the punishment will occur infrequently or never. I think we really never had a discipline problem because our kids did not want to disappoint us, or themselves. We earned their respect and love.

Since I like metaphors, a family is like a business. What is your job description as a parent? What are your roles and responsibilities? How good are you at mentoring, coaching, teaching, and counseling? What are your kids' job description. Do they understand their roles and responsibilities? Is there a business plan; a goal? You cannot be your child's buddy; but you can have a lot of good times together... the more the better... But neither party should ever forget who the parent is, and who the child is. Sometimes the parent and child need to collaborate on the course of action (risk taking might be one), come up with a solution, then apply it.

To me, any kind of punishment is an indicator of failure somewhere. And we all fail at times. The punishment needs to be appropriate for the failure. So the objective is to put stretch goals in place for your kids, explain them, support them in their efforts, and adjust if necessary. Hopefully as parents, if someone asks what our job is, we can answer "I am a father or a mother; I also have a day job to financially support my most important job."