"In my cohort, a couple of kids paid the ultimate price"

In mine too - I grew up on a farm and we were always hearing of kids drowning in silos, drowning in dams, falling off tractors etc.

The result is that I don't have a problem with protectiveness - because in my experience that's merely realistic - but I have a huge problem with the people who won't admit that there are things that CAN be dangerous.

Edited by Arapiles on 04/21/2012 01:13:17 MDT.

"The result is that I don't have a problem with protectiveness - because in my experience that's merely realistic -"

+1, up to a point. The question is: When does realistic protectiveness slip insidiously over the line that separates rational protectiveness from being over protective, to the point of leaving the child unprepared to function on their own in a world indifferent to their well being.

"When does realistic protectiveness slip insidiously over the line that separates rational protectiveness from being over protective, to the point of leaving the child unprepared to function on their own in a world indifferent to their well being."

Not sure. In any case I'm happy to read my kids horror stories because I remain convinced that bowdlerising Grimm is psychologically harmful: kids need to know that there's monsters out there.

+1, up to a point. The question is: When does realistic protectiveness slip insidiously over the line that separates rational protectiveness from being over protective, to the point of leaving the child unprepared to function on their own in a world indifferent to their well being.

But it's not just practical preparation they need, right? I mean, taking those risks and getting yourself, in real life, into situations is also just plain fun! Why do you think the kids play so many realistic role-playing games? And as we all know here, there is a huge difference between looking at a tree on a computer and actually getting out there and sleeping under one. Yet how many people are terrified of going "out there"?

Life is mean to be lived and experienced, not just thought about.

Edited by butuki on 04/22/2012 07:31:00 MDT.

we all die, just a matter of when and what we do with our lives. not everything has to learned the hard way - you can learn that fire burns without getting third degree burns. still, some things must be experienced and risks can be reduced - wearing a helmet doesn't really take away from riding a bike or blades. choices, decisions, consequences.

part of our problem is the news (in all of its manifestations). with so many sources of news only the sensational and emotional draws attention, and with 310 million americans there is always something sensational or emotional...

When my daughters were young (~6), they wanted to climb a tree in our back yard. I hammered in a few rungs in the tree for them to reach the first branch (~8 feet up). I told them that they could only climb the tree if I were in the backyard. I also told them they could climb as high as they wanted BUT they had to be able to climb down safely and that climbing down was a lot harder than climbing up. If they needed help, let me know and I would help them back down. I only had to rescue them a couple times. They learned their limits, developed their skills and became better climbers.

Ahh the memories of growing up in the 60/70s, exploring the woods from dawn to dusk, snake hunting, climbing trees, skate boarding and bicycling with no helmet, 22 mile day hike around the city, climbing around in framed half built houses....

One third of parents probably forgot how to have simple fun and unfortunately pass their own sedentarily sterile lifestyle choices and paranoia onto their children. "Risky" activities for many adults today is staying up past 10pm so they can catch the newest episode of their favorite brain drain on the tube, knowing very well that they have work at 8am the following morning.

Oh boy!!!

(*yawn)

I lived in Los Angeles area till around 1975 dangerous times people put bars on their windows and doors back then because of the crime rate. We would tell our parents we were going out to play at around 8:30a.m. and and they told us to be back before dark or call.

We play all day outside till dusk or even at night. We walked 8 blocks to school even in the rain, Hiked the local Angeles Crest and Verdugo mountains, went to indian guides ,cub scouts,boy scouts meeting and camping trips,built and rode BMX bicycle that became the fad after we went to the movie "On any sunday",climbed trees, Rock fights,fist fights, skateboarded all over town and down to Montrose , La Canada, Glendale and even Eagle Rock a very dangerous town.We would go to the original sport chalet and drool over the backpacking gear.
We hitched hiked back up the hill to my town of La Crescenta on different streets depending were we were.
We did have injuries and bad experiences but we learned from them.

What's really funny the crime rate is very low now days and we live in pretty safe country compared to most nations.
But now the media has everybody so scared to leave their homes . Kid's now have umbilical cords called cell phones when they leave home or go to school. They even get rides to school from parents even when they live only a few blocks from school. Some parents are so scared they won't let their kids out of the house they play role playing video games all day like a poster above me stated. But they do not learn true risk because their are always do overs if your character dies or cheats to make them invincible.
So they learn poor life skills from the video games think their are do overs and they can cheat sometimes their way trough life when they become adults.
Terry

I'm happy to report that my three younger grandkids (12, 10, 7) are out climbing trees in their back yard right now. Most of the trees are fruit or flowering trees which are great for climbing--lots of forks and branches and not too high. The main issue is keeping the kids from going so far out on a branch that it will break. It's not so much for the kids' sake as the sake of the trees!

Edited by hikinggranny on 04/22/2012 14:51:23 MDT.

"wearing a helmet doesn't really take away from riding a bike or blades."

oops, that is subjective... this is perfect godwin's material

"wearing a helmet doesn't really take away from riding a bike or blades."

I also think this is subjective. If I'm taking a leisurely summer bike ride in a park it certainly does take away from the experience and the increased risk is minimal. Today while renting kayaks to paddle around a man-made lagoon, PFDs were inconvenient, uncomfortable, and mandatory.

On the other hand, if I'm biking around SF or sailing on the bay you can be certain I'll be wearing a helmet or PFD!

I think the problem really comes down to a significant inability to judge relative risk. People will be inordinately scared of extremely low-probability events like bear attacks and kidnappings, or of the risk of plane crashes. I recently heard tell of a person who drives around the bay rather than drive over the bridges! However, these same people are probably driving about each day chatting away on the phone without giving it a second thought.

Yes, activities like climbing trees carry a risk of injury or death. So does walking through a eucalyptus grove or a crosswalk, but we don't mandate helmets for that. Perhaps we should normalize an "acceptable risk rate" and consider anything beyond that to be "acceptable losses"? I'd suggest a number around 1:100 for lifetime risk of death. That means you should worry about dying from the flu, or a car accident, or a hospital infection, but climbing trees is considered perfectly reasonable recreation.

ref: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/how-scared-should-we-be/

Wearing a helmet doesn't really take away from riding a bike or blades?

I can't speak to blades but helmets do change MY cycling experience ... a lot ... and not in a positive way. In short, they are HOT. But I wear them anyway and the rare times I forget to do so it is immediately obvious that the helmet isn't there (within the first 100 yards) ... it feels so nice!

The world is passing through troublesome times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.


...of course this was written in the 1200s by Peter the Hermit.


Sounds like some of my co-workers. :D

I am sure EVERY generation does not meet the standards of the previous generation.

My Mom was a proto-Helicopter parent. She was (is!) overprotective, was a little upset when I went to boyscout camp for a week and could not be reached, and generally tried to micromanage my brothers and our lives...and I am thankful cell phones were not widespread technology in the 1980s!

She is also the stereotypical Catholic Mom. :)

I have walked for many months solo, gone deep into the backcountry and generally given my Mom 'agida' (as she is prone to say; look the word up if you are curious). My brother had a, um, paid vacation in Iraq as an Air Force medic at Belad Airbase hospital with his guard unit. No amount of overprotective ethnic Catholic motherhood could stop that. :)


Guess what I am trying to say, it ain't the end of civilization. Yes, parents are micromanaging their children's lives more than in the past. But, technology allows this. Some of these kids will be Mamma's boys. Some will go the other extreme. And most will find a happy medium.

Like most of history.

Relax.

I study forestry and just found myself facing that problem a week ago.
Here in Germany it became law a few years ago that people who work in forests owned by the state MUST teach some lessons in the local schools as well.

Problem is that the parents often aren´t only afraid of their kids falling off a tree, they even avoid going into the forests because it´s "not safe" there.
Your kid can trip over a fallen branch and fall and get hurt.
It can rain and your kid will get a cold.
There are wild animals (no there aren´t....)
And: the forest is a dark area where there are criminals waiting for you behind every second tree...

The list goes on...

Not all parents are like this of course, but MANY!

So now it´s the task of foresters to teach the kids what a tree is. And don´t ask what parents tell us before we take their kids into the forest!!

But the kids LOVE it =)
Of course!!
Finally you are allowed to touch everything you find and if you decide to eat mud then you eat it.

Later they will find their own way - work/go on vacation in nature vs office but it´s somehow sad that a lot of them never get the chance to learn something about nature other than "it´s dangerous".

Edited by SabineFunk on 04/23/2012 08:41:39 MDT.

I was visiting my sister this weekend and she related a sad story. For 11 years she was involved in a coop pre-school and daycare up in the Santa Cruz, Ca area. During her 11 year involvement they had a nice climbing tree on the property and the kids had a right of passage that involved climbing the tree. The only rule they had was that the kids had to get up in the tree by themselves - no adult could help the kids get up in the tree. The kids had to do it by themselves. Some kids would work for over a year to try and figure out how to get up in the climbing tree. My sister would provide encouragement ("put your foot there and grab with your hand over there .... You can do it.... Maybe tommorrow you'll get up in the tree..."). Once a kid would finally figure it out they would have a great sense of accomplishment.

Over the 11 years, there were a few minor injuries, mostly scraps from the rough bark. Nothing more serious than what could be taken care of with a hug and maybe a bandaid.

Unfortunately, once a local school district took over the operation, the climbing tree didn't survive. The school district officials decided that having a dangerous climbing tree was too big a liability and they had it cut down over a weekend without letting parents or kids even know it was being removed. Lots of very disappointed kids that first Monday when they showed up and saw that their beloved climbing tree was no longer there.

Edited by RichardCullip on 04/23/2012 08:55:07 MDT.

Adventure Boy!

He's not afraid at all! His Ma and Pa raised him right.

Pics:
http://sweepingthegarden.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/introducing-adventure-boy/

I'd agree with Paul that its not the end of the world. On the other hand I'd argue its not a healthy thing for an individual kid.

Kids I've known with overprotective parents seem to go to one of two extremes. On the one hand they become little couch potatoes who never take any risks and only do whats "safe" Or they engage in risky behavior when no adult is around. Problem with that is there's no one with better judgement to warn them when they are about to do something really and trully stupid.

My theory is parents who do risky stuff WITH their kids solve both problems. First they can guide the kids and teach them good judgement so they don't do anything stupid. Second they can help kids learn to overcome their fears and do things that are scary but not suicidal.

We did a lot of "risky" things as kids but we normally had some adult guidance first so we didn't get too stupid. By aboug age ten I was regularly using axes, knives, and power tools. I was also into archery and BB guns. I never did anything really dumb with those activities because I'd had some adult guidance first so I knew the things to be careful of. On the other hand we never went rock climbing as a family. So when I started scrabling around on rocks as a teenager I did some really dumb stuff that could have easily gotten me hurt. I'd never had anyone tell me what could go wrong and I almost took a nasty fall before I realized I was pushing my luck. And I didn't realize till I was an adult that rappelling down a bluff with an old lasso tied to a tree is a bad idea!

"Life is mean to be lived and experienced, not just thought about."

+1

"I mean, taking those risks and getting yourself, in real life, into situations is also just plain fun!"

Mostly it's fun, but sometimes it can turn out to be downright terrifying and painful-not fun at all. But that is where the serious learning begins for those with sufficient presence of mind and/or just plain luck, IME.

"I'd suggest a number around 1:100 for lifetime risk of death."

I think it's more like 1:1. ;0)