Hi Nick

Ah, quit boasting about your mountains! Makes me jealous.
Mind you, some of the UK 'hills' are half the height of Kosciusko and get weather every bit as bad. It's not just the height of the summit which matters.

High winds - yeah, we do get some wind. Betts Camp near Mt Kosciusko is notorious. We have literally crawled (on our knees) across it more than once. Many stories around about it.

Now, that Super Flash. Interesting tent design. The poles really do seat into the fabric shape, very much like on the Macpac Olympus. It has to be one of the closest approaches to a tunnel I have seen. I am not surprised that it has worked well for you. It would be interesting to put sleeves on the fly and to attach the inner via hook&loop tape to the sleeves.

Seems a pity that they discontinued it. Gotta move with the times?

> Just wanted to give you a little bit of hard time
Didn't work: you are far too polite. But your comments are appreciated.

Cheers

Dirk makes good sense.

Having sold many a tent back in my retail days, I recall that the biggest selling point most of the time was how easy the tent was to set up. Thus the popularity of clips. The vast majority of folks would say to me they weren't going to camp above timberline or anything like that - they liked to camp in the trees. I'd say my experience in the mountains bears that out - I see many more people camped in the trees than above timberline, and always have. If you camp in the trees, a tent that can handle serious wind is not needed.
Like I say, I sold a lot of tents, and I would say that the vast majority of them could not handle serious wind. And that goes for plenty of the tents on the market today, of whatever configuration.
Another point, which I'm sure Roger would agree with, is that no style of tent is immune to poor design or workmanship - a poorly designed or made tunnel tent is still a crappy tent.

Hi Paul

> no style of tent is immune to poor design or workmanship - a poorly designed or made
> tunnel tent is still a crappy tent.
Shoddy stuff is still shoddy.

Cheers

Roger,

" I have allowed my opinions to come through a bit more strongly than normal here. "
- You sound like your other posts are NOT opinionated...no free pass for you on that one! However, I appreciate the time (both hours and years) that you have put into this article.

Not sure if you are only limiting this report to 2-person shelters to justify the weight or large footprint required, but would like to hear your opinion about tunnels for a single person.

As others have mentioned, the number of guylines add significantly to the stability of your shelter. Certainly we should count the number of tieouts...the fact that you count a single cord for 2 tieouts is a bit of cheating, eh? I noticed the photos of non-tunnel shelters don't have the prodigious amount of tieouts that you have...a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison when you are extolling tunnels tents vs all others.

I expect that since Andrew Skurka, Brian Robinson, Ryan Jordan, Scott Williamson, Francis Tapon, Roman Dial, etc. are educated, lightweight hikers who venture through exposed wilderness areas on VERY long hikes, they will be converting to tunnel tents. Why do you think they have not seen the light yet?

Tom
P.S. I do appreciate that you have been quite good about promptly responding to the questions/comments. It is great to see that level of interest and commitment.

Edited by TomClark on 04/12/2012 21:55:10 MDT.

Roger,
If I'm understanding you correctly, it is not just the distribution of stress that makes the external pole sleeves better than clips. It is also that the poles cannot move freely underneath the fly; or conversely, the fly cannot move freely over the poles. You appear to believe that the latter greatly improves wind performance, which intuitively, certainly makes sense.

About a solo tunnel: If you pre-curved some Easton poles on that Rolling Jenny of yours, used a couple of them for middle sections, and used carbon for the outer sections of a hoop pole, don't you think a few would make a pretty good looking solo tunnel? (as long as you made it wide enough at ground level - who wants to be cramped at ground level anyway - room for the dog(s), etc.)

The 'my mountain is bigger and tougher than your mountain' stuff is a little tiresome. Not from you, though. Australia does have a much nastier environment than the backpacking meccas of the USA. And the lightning in many parts of the Rockies keeps many off high exposed sections well above timberline; while the eastern US is well forested, with camping prohibited in many areas above treeline. Mentioned to you once about Australia's John Muir, and the movie of his S to N Australia crossing.
Pretty unfriendly turf for an American to contemplate. In a place where winter is the nicest time to go backpacking in the mountains - that says it all. No argument with you from me about any of that. But I'll take our Rockies, thanks.

I expect that since Andrew Skurka, Brian Robinson, Ryan Jordan, Scott Williamson, Francis Tapon, Roman Dial, etc. are educated, lightweight hikers who venture through exposed wilderness areas on VERY long hikes, they will be converting to tunnel tents. Why do you think they have not seen the light yet?

If you are not exposed to something and thereby don't seek it out, you're not going to know about it. Very little literature in the States, in any of the popular magazines or websites, offer much information about tunnels. Most Americans don't go looking for information about any kind of gear outside the States, very much tending to focus almost exclusively on gear within the States. As Roger stated earlier, the outdoor market in the States is huge, so no need to look elsewhere. At the same time, with that bias towards their own gear, most Americans are going to automatically assume that American gear is superior.

In other countries the outdoor market is quite substantially smaller. It is often hard to find what you need locally. So you easily tend to look at what is available elsewhere to meet your needs. That is why so many non-Americans look at and buy American-made gear... it is by far the most easily obtainable. But that doesn't mean that American gear meets local needs. One of the biggest requests from people outside the States, especially from the UK, from Henry Shire at Tarptents was shelters that could be pitched low to the ground. Many people on the UK outdoor forums decided that the Tarptents were just not going to cut it because of the openings in the sides. Over time, Henry responded to these requests, and many of his shelters that can take harsh weather, like the Scarp and Notch, now incorporate pitching tight to the ground and solid inners. One of the reasons the Trailstar from MLD is so popular in Europe is because of its superior wind-shedding abilities. In fact, though I'm not sure, the Trailstar was not a popular seller for MLD for a long time, until it was discovered by UK backpackers and its virtues extolled on the Internet. It was popular in Europe before it was popular in the States.

Just because someone has done a big trip does not mean they are savvy about all the gear that is available in the world. If the gear that you use works reliably then what need is there for gear that is produced elsewhere, that tends to be more expensive, often the language is impossible to read, and you have no idea about its reliability? The tunnel tent with inner clipped in afterwards was first designed in Europe because of the substantial rain in Europe and the desire to get out of that rain quickly without getting everything wet. This type of design has now been set in the minds of Europeans and no one thinks of it as an odd design. But the thinking still hasn't been set in the minds of Americans (or Japanese), so, because they still think in terms of the inner-first, outer-afterwards paradigm, they will often dismiss the tunnel. When the Akto first came to Japan I was talking to a sales clerk at one of the big outdoor stores here, who told me not to consider it because it didn't have a bathtub floor (he assumed that since the fly was pitched first it ought to have a floor... he didn't understand the design). One of the big obstacles when someone designs something... anything... is conceptual blocks; you think in one way and it is very hard to think in a new way. One of Henry Shire's amazing abilities, and quite rare, is his ability to think outside the box. That's why he keeps coming up with so many unique designs. Very few designers can do this.

Changing the minds of consumers is even more difficult. If you introduce something totally new you take a big gamble that the consumers are going to be able to recognize the value of that new thing. There are plenty of examples of designs that were revolutionary, but completely failed in the market, not because they didn't work, but because they were simply overlooked, or they didn't have enough time financially to be refined.

So, unless people like Skurka, Robinson, Jordan, and Tapon (who I'm sure now is very much up on European outdoor gear designs) actively seek out designs outside the States, they are not likely to know them. And certainly not the designs that come out in places like Japan, New Zealand, China, or Czech, all places where outdoor designs are very popular and innovative.

Hi Tom

> your opinion about tunnels for a single person.
Well, there's a problem there. You see, while a tunnel is very efficient for 2 or 3 people, it is somewhat less weight-efficient for 1 person, and the shape of the poles gets a bit distorted too.
IF you are willing to accept a design which is lower over much of the length, then it can also work for 1 person, and will be VERY stable because the poles are then so short.

> count a single cord for 2 tieouts is a bit of cheating, eh?
If you aren't cheating you aren't trying ... (quote from somewhere). :-)
However, the comparison with other shelters is not simple. How many guy ropes can you put on a pop-up? A double guy on each of the poles, OK, but what do you do in the middle of the large fabric span? You will note that the side guys on my tunnels are all on poles. Guying fabric spans is less successful.

> Why do you think they have not seen the light yet?
Well, Ryan has a 1-man single-skin winter tunnel which I made for him some years ago, and I think he called it his 'go-to tent' for winter conditions.
The others may not know enough about tunnels, or may not be able find a 1-man tunnel to suit. Dunno.

Cheers

Hi Sam

> the fly cannot move freely over the poles. You appear to believe that the latter
> greatly improves wind performance,
That has been my experience.

> If you pre-curved some Easton poles on that Rolling Jenny of yours, used a couple of
> them for middle sections, and used carbon for the outer sections of a hoop pole,
Quite possible. Interesting idea.

Yeah, the Rockies look magnificent.

Cheers

Hi Miguel

> places like Japan, New Zealand, China, or Czech, all places where outdoor designs
> are very popular and innovative.
Add Russia to that. Nice Bask packs - review coming.

Cheers

When will we see part 2? Can hardly wait to see what inflammatory remark people will latch on to. But mostly for the tents.

+1 Ken!

There were more tunnel tents in the US market 20 years ago. Remember Walrus? It's all those guy lines on the tunnels. They just don't work well in crowded established campsites that many are forced to use here. My Arch Rival needed a small runway for pitching.


My Arch Rival. This was the tent I had before I switched to hammocks for the next 12 years. Just bought my first tent since then.


Some Sierra Designs tent from 2000.

Edited by kthompson on 04/13/2012 07:02:34 MDT.

This is not the time nor the place, but why can't I read a BPL Editorial without seeing commentary that takes one line out of the prose and crucifies the writer? BPL is kind of becoming a nasty place to be around.

I don't always agree with what Roger says but for many things, the man has more experience than I and I appreciate his perspective. Looking forward to Part 2. Roger, just leave guns, bears, religion, and cottage stagnation out of it and you should be fine.

Roger,

Thanks for the article. Interesting stuff to someone who has zero experience with tunnel tents. Looking forward to part two and seeing what you consider the "best" of the group you surveyed.

In my personal situation as an admittedly "mild weather" camper, I am not sure I how much I would stand to benefit from this style of tent. Those I have been able to find on the internet seem fairly heavy and quite long in comparison to my "pop-ups" (love that btw). Nevertheless, it is good to learn new things from someone with more experience, so as to be able to determine how to best apply that knowledge to one's own situation.

Again, thank you. I personally enjoyed your style of writing. If you meant offense, it apparently went over my head. Looking forward to part 2!

EDIT: One last question and really nothing to do with the article itself. Is it just me (and my wife) that don't like to sleep with our heads at the door? Night time exit/entry gets "trickier". Why must so many tents slope down from the entry? I did note this was fairly common in the lighter weight tunnel tents I viewed on the web...

Edited by BER on 04/13/2012 09:06:36 MDT.

Good article, Roger.
A tunnel is easy to pitch in high winds for a solo hiker. Try pitching a geo or similar in high winds when solo. :)

There are 5 pages of responses already, and that's only for Part 1!

Roger, I (and I'm sure most others here) greatly appreciate your keeping up the dialog here on the forum! It has been as informative as the article itself! As long as it isn't delaying the publication of Part 2....

Thought you might be interested in this tent. It is the first Sierra Designs Flash. Made in the USA too. I posted some other pictures also, not to imply they are better than a tunnel, but thought you might be interested in design ideas as these tents might not be common down under.


Notice the poles (fiberglass) go through sleeves in the inner.




No vestibule.


Wind is often my nemesis. Precipitation and cold not as much except for winter mountain trips, but it does sometimes get below 20F in the high desert. Over the years I have played with several tents, but always end up going back to a tarp. The exception is wind near washes, dry lakes, and sand dunes. Often there is little in the way of natural shelters, so it is similar to above tree line.

The biggest difficulty is sand storms. Where I live the sand can strip paint off of cars and in an hour turn a windshield opaque. Also it is dangerous to eyes, ears and breathing. So in these situations a tent is desirable, although sand plays havoc on zippers.

For me weight has always been a consideration. The early Westwinds were heavy. The Flash above only weighs 3.5lbs with old thick aluminum stakes and the stuff sack. It is amazingly stable in the wind, but sucks in snow, which is why I got the Super Flash (the pictures I posted earlier).

My wind/sand solutions have been:

SD Flash - Handles wind very well. No vestibule. 3.5 lbs.

SD Super Flash - I used it more for snow. Had a vestibule. Over 6 lbs. Has handle extreme conditions.

SD Clip Flash 2 - weighs more than the old SD Flash (4 lbs). Has a vestibule. I can leave the inner at home and take the optional foot print to make a fairly sturdy wind tent @ 2.5 lbs. The Super Flash with 3 poles is superior than all of them in wind. I posted some pictures further below.

Chouinard Pyramid - heavy and I hated the center pole, which is heavy it self (~ 1 lb). But it handled any weather thrown at it.

Six Moons Wild Oasis - does pretty good, but I have to carry a heavy walking staff as a pole... don't trust lighter poles. I also worry about it holding up to high winds... it is an UL tent.

zPacks Hexamid -- this does suprising well, but again worry about robustness of guyline connections to the fabric. The 1 oz CF pole I got is flimsy. I got a 3 oz CF pole from Ti Goat and it is infinitely better (I don't care to carry trekking poles). If the wind does a major shift then that becomes a major problem.

For snow/wind I am now using a Scarp 1 with crossing poles. But in extreme wind it might have problems. I has handle gusts above 50 mph.

I like your extra guys for the tunnels, which is easy to install since the poles are attached to the fly.

For the desert I can see that a tunnel without an inner could be an excellent solution, if one could keep the weight down. However, I am cognizant of the fact a lighter tent is worthless if the wind tears it apart :)

Some of us BPLers did a trip about a month ago. Got gusts around 50 mph. The Tarp Tent Squall 2 and Gossamer Gear Squall were both flattened (not sure if the set-up was perfect). A home made tarp made from cuben and set up as a modified lean-to held up, but the owner had to re-adjust during the night. The 4th shelter a nylon tarp set-up with rear staked to the ground held up with no adjustments needed. I didn't use a shelter and was fine, although several pieces of gear blew away during the night and had to be retrieved in the morning.

I think the lack of robust tents in the US is partially due to the large number of people buying tents for an occasional camping trip, they are looking for ease of set-up and not so much what some of us need. Can't blame the manufacturers, the mass market is huge for them.


Clip Fashlight 2




Clip Flashlight 2 Footprint


Clip Flashlight 2 without the inner




One Velcro loop connects the fly to the rear pole. The larger front pole has 3 Velcro Loops (sides and top)


Vestibule area.

P.S. Ask Addie to hurry up with the desktop editing process, so we can see part 2 :)

"EDIT: One last question and really nothing to do with the article itself. Is it just me (and my wife) that don't like to sleep with our heads at the door? Night time exit/entry gets "trickier". Why must so many tents slope down from the entry? I did note this was fairly common in the lighter weight tunnel tents I viewed on the web..."

Yeah, I agree, Brian. There are a lot of tents that are just designed backwards IMHO. Like you, I much prefer to simply crawl in, kick my shoes off and sleep. Really easy...even changing cloths is less hastle. One of these days the manufacturors *might* get a hint.

Nick I had one of those blue and white Flashlights. Used it till it disintegrated. Still being made. Amazing since it came out in 83?