"I don't have a clue how dextrose compares to glucose."

Dextrose and glucose are synonyms.

certainly hydration, electrolyte maintenance and nutrition are very individual, what works for one isn't going to work for all (would be nice if it was that easy)

for myself- my next long run I'm going to try a S!cap w/ an endurolyte or two/hour- I need to find out for myself if my down turn was lack of Sodium; from the ultra discussions I've read Sodium loss is ~ 900-1400 mg/ liter of sweat and it's very common to lose a liter of sweat/hour

Back to personal subjectivity here.

I've never taken electrolyte supplements, ever, from running marathons to 50Ks and beyond, as well as 200+ mile cycling events.
That's not to say I don't believe in taking something, but I've always found that I seem to get adequate salts simply by throwing in some salty calories. Yes, this is even during hot weather. The majority of my ultracycling days were spent in Death Valley and the surrounding deserts.

When I'm saying that a person can train to run on less, I'm not saying a person can run on nothing; big difference. But you can, both psychologically and physically adapt and learn/teach your body to require less- which is exactly what Greg M. is saying about endurance athletes switching into fat burning faster.
If you give your body a steady stream of carb calories on every run, and never teach yourself to simply cope with shifting from glycogen to fats, you'll bonk faster than an athlete who is used to this. That's been my understanding, anyway.

As for not eating anything particularly special, again, I cite the Kenyans. Ugali, milk, sugar, small portions of meat, and fruits and veggies seem to work fine for them to hammer out sub 5 minute miles without supplements, electrolyte pills, or science food. We're no different; humans are humans, it's how you train/condition yourself that makes the difference. That's not to say supplements won't work; but I do think we overcomplicate things.

"but I do think we overcomplicate things"

Yes we do. Sometimes I am amazed how complicated many people seem to make simple things.

"Sometimes I am amazed how complicated many people seem to make simple things."

Doesn't get much simpler than 1/4 tsp of Mortons Lite in a liter of H2O to chase a slug of Perpetuem. No lunch bag, no greasy fingers, no teeth brushing. Just sip and walk. All day.

whoops- beat to it

Edited by Ike on 05/03/2012 21:22:19 MDT.

I think I'm coming off sounding harsh or critical of others here, so let me try to simplify. Not trying to be argumentative, just another perspective.

1. Post exercise refueling: If it works for you great. But the very term "post exercise refueling" reeks of overcomplication. Most people simply call it eating, and do a fine job of it with a banana, a big glass of water, etc. I think plenty of companies have discovered that if they make certain things sound complicated, people will assume the solutions are complicated...and a new product is sold. Like all of the "recovery" drinks out there that essentially have the exact same nutrition profile as chocolate milk.

2. During exercise eating: Obviously, we have to. Do whatever works for you, I'm not knocking it. But I do believe, from personal experience, that people overcomplicate this too. Granted, the Kenyans I mention aren't often running for 8 hours at a time, but at the same time, I think we often get trapped in a little too much of the hype that gets generated to sell sports foods, sports drinks, sports gels, sports supplements...Certainly these things have their place in some situations.

3. There are plenty of elites out there that do subscribe to a very scientific, supplement-based approach to eating/drinking during and after workouts. But I would argue that are are also quite a few top notch athletes out there that don't. Again, many Kenyans, both established and up-and-comers come to mind here. They just eat and drink sensibly; no measuring calories, sodium, carbs vs. fats vs. proteins, no laboratory recovery drinks. Just sensible eating.

Another example that comes to mind: the XC and track athletes I work with at my high school. I see kids that regularly knock down 15 minute XC 5Ks, 14 second 110 high hurdles, etc. We've got one of the state's top 4x400 relay teams right now. None of them use supplements. None of them think "post exercise refueling". They think "I'm hungry" and "I'm thirsty" and they eat bananas, granola bars, orange slices, and guzzle water at meets. I like how simple they approach things. Mention half of this sports nutrition to them and they're clueless. They just know hard work and to stay away from junk food.

Why do I hate overcomplication so much? I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money.

Edited by xnomanx on 05/03/2012 22:51:59 MDT.

"Why do I hate overcomplication so much? I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money."

Bingo! Elite athletes will need every advantage they can get in competitive sports. I'm glad I'm only going backpacking and don't need to worry with the hype. It seems the guy at the link below didn't worry about the hype too much either and his hike was pretty long.

http://andrewskurka.com/2010/the-5000-calories-per-day-wilderness-diet/

Your comments are spot on. It is overcomplication and a long ways from just eating. But sometimes and for some people that's the point. I come from a research engineering background and find it all massively fascinating. Drives my wife nuts.

As I think more about it, I see the whole UL effort as having two basic pieces. The first is to simplify. Get rid of the hauled around civilization. Learn what truly is needed. Enjoy where you are on its terms. Backpacking starts out with that in mind albeit rather naively. Over time the preconceptions about what is needed to live out there fall away until one is indeed living right there, right then.

Another piece starts to grow when we look critically at our gear as we simplify. In our lust for less, we discard the cotton, then the fleece, then the ripstop, then the pillow, and find ourselves in micro-GTX gossamer garments carried in spun polyethylene Spectra cuben fiber sacks and put tyvek pillowcases on our shoes at night to rest the corner of our heads on.

Why should we stop at going full tech on our gear? This is FUN! Test hikes with MPH versus grade and fatigue estimates. Underfueling and overfueling to find our limits. Measuring malto on a gram scale to strike the perfect carb absorption rate. Sheer osmohilarity!

So first we simplify, then we re-complicate, but now with purpose, experience, and fascination. Of course, HYOH and I hope to see as many of you as will walk the trails I will walk.

> I'm still fscinated at how many avid hikers on this and otther forums have yet to discover that from nutrion, to shoes, to clothes, runners have been donning UL and SUL items for decades now

I don't think it's about not discovering anything but about different means for different goals. Most UL and SUL items for runners don't translate well into backpacking.

"Not trying to be argumentative, just another perspective."

In the same vein, a few comments.

"1. Post exercise refueling: If it works for you great. But the very term "post exercise refueling" reeks of overcomplication. Most people simply call it eating, and do a fine job of it with a banana, a big glass of water, etc."

This works fine in the city. In my situation, on trips of the duration I generally take, it is not feasible to take bananas, chocolate milk, etc. Simplification is being able to pour a powder with a precisely measured number of calories, carbs, and protein into a bottle of water and slug it down to get my recovery started while I am setting up camp. It is NOT the way I eat after training hikes when I'm home. Just eating normal, natural food is far preferable then.

"2. During exercise eating: Obviously, we have to. Do whatever works for you, I'm not knocking it. But I do believe, from personal experience, that people overcomplicate this too. Granted, the Kenyans I mention aren't often running for 8 hours at a time, but at the same time, I think we often get trapped in a little too much of the hype that gets generated to sell sports foods, sports drinks, sports gels, sports supplements...Certainly these things have their place in some situations."

Again, what could be simpler than a powder containing very quickly absorbed carbs poured into a bottle of water to be sipped while on the move, alternated with a bottle of water containing a known amount of sodium, chloride, and potassium? This has the added advantage of not diverting blood from the working muscles to support the digestive process. The Kenyans generally do not run further than marathon distance, which is not a comparable situation to the one we are discussing.

"3. There are plenty of elites out there that do subscribe to a very scientific, supplement-based approach to eating/drinking during and after workouts. But I would argue that are are also quite a few top notch athletes out there that don't. Again, many Kenyans, both established and up-and-comers come to mind here. They just eat and drink sensibly; no measuring calories, sodium, carbs vs. fats vs. proteins, no laboratory recovery drinks. Just sensible eating."

These elites do so for a very good reason: There is a lot of scientific research that supports this approach for the kind of training they do. This is not to say there is no other approach, as the Kenyans obviously prove. Where the scientific approach comes into its own seems to be on the endurance end of the spectrum, think cycling and triathlons, etc, which most closely resemble longer duration, unresupplied backpacking. It's up to each individual to choose, but both approaches are valid, IMO.

"Another example that comes to mind: the XC and track athletes I work with at my high school. I see kids that regularly knock down 15 minute XC 5Ks, 14 second 110 high hurdles, etc. We've got one of the state's top 4x400 relay teams right now. None of them use supplements. None of them think "post exercise refueling". They think "I'm hungry" and "I'm thirsty" and they eat bananas, granola bars, orange slices, and guzzle water at meets. I like how simple they approach things. Mention half of this sports nutrition to them and they're clueless. They just know hard work and to stay away from junk food."

And I regularly used to knock out low 16 minute 5K's in my 40's. I didn't use supplements back then either, nor was it necessary. Beer was my recovery drink of choice. Looking back, I often wonder how things would have turned out if I had been more scientific about my post exercise regimen, not so much after a race, but after training runs that added up to 70 miles/week. I suspect either the scientific or the Kenyan approach would have produced better results. These days, the scientific approach only makes sense to me for refuelling on the move during training hikes, i.e. Perpetuem, and while I am on backpacking trips, when simplicity and knowing with a fair degree of precision what I am getting are of prime importance. To give you a better picture of where I am coming from: I carry 19 oz of food/day on trips up to 10 days and depend 3-4 pounds of body fat to make up the deficit. Knowing fairly precisely how much carbs and protein are in my carried food is very important if I am to come out the other end in good shape for the next trip. Sports drinks have role to play in this approach, and so far they have served me well. It seems pretty simple to me, once you have done your homework. I also do not generally cook my food, using a stove only to heat water for drinks. How many of you have a system simpler than that?

"I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money."

Perhaps this is their intent, and there is certainly no shortage of garbage products on the market, but I think folks like myself, Greg G, Nathan, et al, are probably intelligent enough to sort out the hype from the useful material. The results speak for themselves as far as I'm concerned. That said, it up to each one of us to figure out what works best for them.

Interesting thread, huh?

Edited by ouzel on 05/05/2012 16:37:13 MDT.

"Beer was my recovery drink of choice."

Twenty years ago, that was fine for me.

--B.G.--

"No electrolytes for me, other than what would be found in gels or some Perpetuem.
I did eat about 2 oz. of Fritos, but that was already at ~30 miles."

I have seen a huge difference between taking and not taking electrolytes especially for long hot backpacking days. I used to hit the sleeping bag only to have jump up to get rid of cramps that would start in my fett and work it's way up my legs. This only happened once on my PCT hike, on a section when I was without my magic capsules and Malto mix.

As far as the "nutrition training" I think there is merit in the approach of training your body to operate with a scarcity of external energy. But, I am nowhere near the peak physical condition that I would have to be in to focus on this area vs. stacking all the cards in my favor and pushing for more of a physical workout. I would think that anytime you are pushing the nutritional limits you are sacrificing physical training.

Finally I want to build on Tom's comments on simplicity/complexity of various approaches. I do not believe there is a single answer that works. I suspect as you move up the intesity ladder some approaxches will experience issues. I have played around with long 35-40 mile hiking days eating such garbage as chocolate covered donuts and Oreos. And it worked as long as I maintained a certain level of consumption. Would that approach work for 50, 60 or a 100 miler? I suspect there would be a limit. But I have found a system that is simple and very effective up to the 60 mile limit ( and likely beyond.) I like to find a systm that works and stick with it, experimenting a bit to push the envelop a bit. It doesn't get much simplier than reaching into bucket and pulling out bags of flavored powder. Likely not for everyone but it is ideal for me.

Perpetuem has a lot of different elctrolytes in it, and probably in sufficient quantities that if you use it as your main food source you may never, or at least seldom, need electrolyte supplements.
However, Chloride is mysteriously absent from Perpetuem.
since I don't know what this does, can anyone comment ...

from Hammer

CHLORIDE is the relative anion (negatively charged ion) that accompanies sodium. This electrolyte is absolutely necessary in maintaining the osmotic tension in both blood and extracellular fluids. It's a somewhat complicated process, but to put it in the simplest terms, think of osmotic tension as being the proper balance and consistency of body fluids and electrolytes. An appropriate amount of chloride (as sodium chloride) supports, but does not override, the function of the hormone aldosterone in regulating and conserving proper electrolyte levels.

Cl is probably hooked onto both NaCl (sodium chloride, table salt) and KCl (potassium chloride). Table salt does not list chloride either?

Based on 2000 kcal per 8 hours hiking:

"Cheap" Trail bars (Nature Valley) $20.00
Quality Trail bars (Bonk Breaker) $16.00
Hammer Perpetuem + Endurolytes $11.80
Trader Joe's Pistachios (my fave) $11.00

MyoGel, MyoLytes $4.78

As in most things UL, DIY!

I just spoke to another patient yesterday who does mountain bike racing events(50+mi). He told me switching to pedialyte has made a world of difference for him. He said he drinks a lot less liquid now.