what are others reaching for after feeling shelled?
choice beverages? food?
eeeeks.
i'm hung up on cocount water and bananas.
lt

A few years ago a bunch of us did a super tough dayhike. We were out for about 17 hours before arriving at a campground and the rest of our group. They asked me what I wanted to eat, but I was too tired to eat a lot. I asked for one cup of fruit juice and one bowl of hot soup. Then I collapsed to sleep.

--B.G.--

I tend to be like Bob. When I'm exercising I tend to not eat a lot and after I just eat whatever I normally eat. With that said, the leaner I've gotten the faster I get hungry. I attended a local whitewater raft guide school a few weeks ago and found myself eating a ton. The coconut water and banana cravings are probably (ok, just an educated guess really) related to a depletion of potassium.

I used to get bad muscle cramps during heavy exercise. Then I got smart and started on bananas or Gatorade, each good sources of potassium. Then the cramps went away.

If you just want the electrolytes but you don't need the sugar dose of the Gatorade, then take some dieter's salt substitute. It is potassium chloride with a little sodium chloride. Plus, if you put that into your other food, it won't upset your stomach.

--B.G.--

A magnesium supplement is really helpful for muscle cramping. Muscle cramping can also be a sign of dehydration or can happen with a new activity that the muscles aren't accustomed to. Usually for me it is the not enough water thing.

My family doc is also Sports Med and a marathoner. She believes that water is best and that we don't need the electrolyte replacement drinks if we have a decent diet and keep hydrated. I asked if she uses them in the marathons she runs.... nope - just water.

It really depends on the day what I do post-workout. If I am hiking, I've generally fueled along the way. If I am running it depends. Sometimes I'll have a yogurt (or chocolate milk). I generally have a small handful of nuts or granola that is heavy on the nuts along with the dairy. If my blood sugar is low I also pop a couple ClifBloks. Sometimes I have a quinoa salad with some sort of bean (usually edamame) in it.

Today I had 1/2 whole grain bagel with cream cheese, fresh herbs, roasted garlic and roasted mixed peppers and a glass of mineral water. I also had an apple. I choose this because I ran right before lunch.

Edited by Laurie_Ann on 04/10/2012 13:11:56 MDT.

So I discovered dried bananas last season. Just awesome in my morning oatmeal! Also love 'em during the rest of the day. Does anyone know (Laurie) if these dried bananas have all the potassium goodness of the regular nanner, or if the drying process kills the nutritional value?

Jeffrey, the drying and preparation of bananas should not have any serious effect on potassium. It will have some effect on other nutrients such as vitamins. But, if you are just trying to get some calories and potassium, there is no problem.

--B.G.--

I've had good luck with the Endurox R4 I got on closeout from Bonktown.

As far as I know dried fruit retains much of the nutritional value. Now I am talking about freeze-dried and home-dehyrated bananas here. Those crispy ones are actually fried and I'm not sure of the nutritional values on those (they are yummy though).

There are actually other good sources of potassium (some of these are even better than bananas)...

- sweet potatoes
- beet greens
- orange juice
- potatoes
- white beans
- clams
- dates
- raisins
- yogurt
- dried apricots
- avocados
- cocoa

Those crispy banannas are fried, and coated with sugar water so they don't turn black.

Depends on duration and exertion. I'm a bit of a catfish and don't have a stringent diet I stick to.

For my early morning trail runs (1.5-2hr) I always down a banana at the trailhead post run, gets me from trailhead to the coffee shop where I usually grab a green chile bagel w/ cream cheese and a coffee. Maltodextrin based gel or drink lightly during my run so I'm not famished (~100-200cals). This is my routine most days and does the trick.

For any running over >3 hrs. I grab fruit (banana, apple, pear, etc) immediately post run and usually have some whey protein ready to mix into some water back at the trailhead (*if my stomach is cooperating). If it's an ultramarathon or long run with run mates I will eat whatever is available at the finish or at the nearest brewery.

A pint of brown or double IPA with a green chile burger and sweet potato fries is killer.

Yes... I knew that Joe. That's why I avoid them unless I am backpacking (occasional treat as a small ingredient in a granola bar). I've started drying my own dipped in lime juice and a little agave nectar... not quite as crunchy but a wee bit healthier.

The freeze-dried ones from Natural High are fabulous. They rehydrate instantly and the texture is good. Not as good as a fresh banana mind you.

"If you just want the electrolytes but you don't need the sugar dose of the Gatorade, then take some dieter's salt substitute. It is potassium chloride with a little sodium chloride. Plus, if you put that into your other food, it won't upset your stomach."

+1 It's called Mortons Lite Salt

"I've had good luck with the Endurox R4 I got on closeout from Bonktown."

Whether or not one chooses to use a "recovery" drink, the type and amount of ingredients they generally contain can provide a template for what you should be taking in, regardless of the source, IMO/IME. Primarily carbs and protein in a 3:1 ratio, along with electrolytes. I am talking here about recovering from an extended hard workout or long, hard day on the trail. For shorter efforts it doesn't make that much difference because you haven't exhausted msucle glycogen or metabolized significant muscle protein.

@ Laurie - I have to disagree with your doc on the electrolytes, at least for endurance activities, especially in hot weather. I have personally had two serious incidents, during a marathon and a 50 miler, where electrolyte depletion was part of my problem. I also used to have frequent trouble with leg cramps, and since I started to add electrolytes to my water have experienced practically none. Maybe I'm a unique physical specimen, but somehow I doubt it. No doubt there are individual variences but, in the course of an extended effort, everyone loses Na in particular and, to a lesser degree, K, beyond what is ingested in a normal diet.

Edited by ouzel on 04/10/2012 16:01:01 MDT.

I eat whatever I crave - if I can find it that is ;-) Today I had a leftover bean burrito from last night's dinner. Was delicious and filled my belly.
I get my freeze-dried fruits/berries from Trader Joe's. The bananas are excellent. I eat a lot of potassium in food due to my BP meds. I live on a "diet" high in veggies/fruits as well.
But honestly some days all I want is a latte and I go for it!

If you're talking about those 20-mile dayhikes or century bike rides, there's a growing body of scientific research showing that plain old chocolate milk is as good for recovery after endurance exercise as anything that marketed as a recovery aid. It has a nearly perfect ratio of protein to carbs, plus a little fat.
During two separate courses earning a BS in exercise physiology I had to not only conduct a meta-study on the subject from an endurance point of view (mostly cyclists doing multi-hour rides), but also as a class actually created and conducted and participated in an experiment investigating the effect of chocolate milk on recovery after high aerobic intensity workouts to exhaustion. We specifically ran 200m and 400m sprints.

Turns out it's quite effective in pretty much every regard. It's also cheap, palatable, and easily acquirable at any gas station or grocery store.
It doesn't provide much in the electrolytes, but that can be addressed rather easily with oral rehydration salts, or gatorade you drink during the hike/run/ride.

Actually dairy milk is full of electrolytes! 8 ounces of 2% has 400 mg of potassium and 125 mg sodium with 8 grams protein.

"there's a growing body of scientific research showing that plain old chocolate milk is as good for recovery after endurance exercise as anything that marketed as a recovery aid. It has a nearly perfect ratio of protein to carbs, plus a little fat."

+1 It's the "go to" recovery drink for one of my hiking partners, a seriously fit endurance athlete. She got the idea from an exercise physiologist up here, and swears by it. The only issue I can see has to do with backpacking. It isn't practical to carry chocolate milk on multi day trips. We were talking a couple of days ago about experiementing with Nido and cocoa powder. I used a combination of 2 oz Ensure and 1 oz Nido last year in the mountains with acceptable results, but it is a bit to high in fat to be an optimal recovery drink, IMO. Lots of options without breaking the bank using commercial recovery drinks.

"Actually dairy milk is full of electrolytes! 8 ounces of 2% has 400 mg of potassium and 125 mg sodium with 8 grams protein."

Well, I'll be... You're right. I never looked at that. All our experimental concern was for the protein/sugar/fat proportions.

"The only issue I can see has to do with backpacking. It isn't practical to carry chocolate milk on multi day trips."

It's heavy because it's liquid, but I drank a fair amount of Shelf-stable choc. milk on deployment, and it's not undrinkable. Roughly the same nutrition too.

http://www.organicvalley.coop/products/milk/shelf-stable-milks/product/shelf-stable-whole-milk-1-liter/

Edited by COHiker on 04/10/2012 17:20:32 MDT.

Tom.... I trust her judgement on this one. Keep in mind too that (for me at least) she recommends a daily magnesium supplementation for running (and that is one of the important electrolytes). She is sports med and was a military doc before that so she's used to extremes. She did recommend yogurt or choc. milk or a date bar post run. All of those contain electrolytes. Plain old water does contain minerals although there can be variances in that by region.

I also do not sweat profusely even under extreme circumstances. I wish I could sweat more because I'd be able to regulate my body temp better... anyway I have to wonder if this puts me at less risk for hyponatremia.

So, after your comment, I thought I'd Google it and I found this interesting article with resources cited and linked.

Should a Runner Drink Water With Electrolytes All the Time?

This all depends on the duration and whether it is a multiday event.
1) For sub 4 hour I love the chocolate milk. I also will get intense craving for beer which is strange since I rarely drink it.
2) For longer single day events I make sure I get plenty of protein. I do this immediately at finish.
3) For multiday events I do both protein and carbs to replenish the carb supply for the next day.

Laurie,
As far as electrolytes, I with Tom. With all due respect to your friend, a 4 hour marathon is not pushing the limits in most cases with respect to electrolytes. While she could get away with it she would likely change her tune in events beyond a marathon. Like Tom, I used to get bad cramping on high mile hiking days from lack of electrolytes. No longer.

Bob,
The Lite Salt will give you Potassium, Sodium and Cloride. I also mix in a magnesium and calcium complex and take a multi vitamin to get the rest of the critical electrolytes.

"Tom.... I trust her judgement on this one."

For your situation, yes. However, if you ever decide to get into endurance training/running, I'd revisit the subject if I were you. Maybe at least get a second opinion? Your doc is not infallible, and there are other opinions. (See below)

"Keep in mind too that (for me at least) she recommends a daily magnesium supplementation for running (and that is one of the important electrolytes). She is sports med and was a military doc before that so she's used to extremes."

I also use a magnesium supplement, and it has helped me a lot, but I also make sure I have adequate sodium/potassium dripping in on longer, hotter, higher altitude workouts/hikes. You do lose sodium under those conditions and if you go on long enough, you will need to replace it. I choose not to wait until I am "a quart low" to do so because by that time my body's homeostasis has been disrupted and bad things start to happen. Been there, done that, and it isn't a pretty sight.

"anyway I have to wonder if this puts me at less risk for hyponatremia."

Perhaps, but it also puts you at greater risk of hypothermia if it is hot, especially if it is humid and/or you are out for an extended period.

"So, after your comment, I thought I'd Google it and I found this interesting article with resources cited and linked."

Yes, and it basically makes the same points I have been trying to make. Keep in mind that I am not talking about 5k runs. The article cites the Mayo Clinic as recommending that you consider electrolytes in your fluid intake if you are going to be out more than an hour, if I have read the article correctly.

There really is nothing better than what nature provides. After exercise you have about a 45min window to refuel the muscles. They need glucose and protein. A banana and an egg with salt added is the best recovery out there. Of course you need water as well. Weigh yourself before and after exertion to get an idea of water loss. 8lbs/ gallon and drink what you lost. Pediolyte is the best water replacement. It has nearly perfectly balanced electrolytes. No Dr has ever said, hurry give that dehydrated baby some gatoraide. Gatoraide is about the worst thing you can drink. Takes out much more water than it puts in. And the electrolytes are totally out if balance. Way to much sugar, not enough salt, calcium or potassium. It has an osmolality of about 900 and humans are at 300. Anything about 300 takes water out of the system and anything lower puts water in. Near 300 puts water and electrolytes in. Pediolyte is 270. No sports drink even comes close. I tell all my patients who are long distance athletes to put pediolyte in their sorts bottles and it makes a huge difference in performance. no more cramps.

"Pediolyte is the best water replacement. It has nearly perfectly balanced electrolytes."

I think you can come close enough for field work using Mortons Lite salt replacement. It's a lot cheaper and you can take just as much as you need based on the duration of your activity. I've been using this for years for backpacking, bookended by calcium and magnesium supplements at either end of the day with good results.

If you were a chemist you might get it right. No one in the sports drink world has managed to get it right and you're not likely to either. You're best bet is to use water and real sea salt as it is as close to your own bodies mineral makeup as nature gets. Any salt that has been treated like table salt will always have the minerals out of balance. This is why table salt raises blood pressure but sea salt does not. Always trust nature first. Man nearly always gets it wrong. On things like hikes and camping and athletic events it wont matter much. When your life is on the line it might. I saw a 26 year old girl go into a coma last year at a marathon that was unusually hot. She nearly died from dehydration and the family just couldn't figure it out. She drank gator-aide the whole race. Stuff should be banned from sports.

Alan, the American Heart Association does not agree with you about sea salt. Too much of it too can raise blood pressure just like table salt.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HighBloodPressure/PreventionTreatmentofHighBloodPressure/Sea-Salt-Vs-Table-Salt_UCM_430992_Article.jsp

"What’s the difference?
Sea salt is obtained directly through the evaporation of seawater. It is usually not processed, or undergoes minimal processing, and therefore retains trace levels of minerals like magnesium, potassium, calcium and other nutrients.

Table salt, on the other hand, is mined from salt deposits and then processed to give it a fine texture so it’s easier to mix and use in recipes. Processing strips table salt of any minerals it may have contained, and additives are also usually incorporated to prevent clumping or caking.

While these attributes may make sea salt more attractive from a marketing standpoint, Johnson says there are no real health advantages of sea salt."

Edited by jshann on 05/02/2012 03:48:37 MDT.

Some of the best ultra runners in the world come for places where they don't have anything but water. The Tarahumara for example... they drink water and sometimes they drink water mixed with chia seeds and lime.

My doctor is currently in Central America doing a sports med thing. Sort of like a doctors without borders deal from what I understand. Like I said... I trust her and not just in my particular case. Running a marathon or ultra is not an easy thing.

If we are speaking about refueling after intense backpacking... good food should do that in combination with water. There should be enough nutrients in the diet you prepare for your trips to cover everything that your body needs both calorically and nutritionally. I steer clear of some of the UL food ideas that don't encompass a good variety of nutrition and I look for a decent ratio of carb to protein.

At home... well after last night's trail run (hill training), my recovery was water and a dish of yogurt with 2 tablespoons of chia seed mixed into it.

Thanks for the comments, Alan. They make sense to me, as a chemist ;-). Actually I like to say I have a rusty chemistry degree. Chem joke.

I do know that my body does not like Gatoraide during exercise. I prefer to just drink water, but for very long or hot hikes/bikes that starts to feel bad too. I'll try the Pediolyte.

On the 45min window, I've heard that forever and do try to hit it ... but I kind of think my body isn't dumb. If follow with an off-day and good food, I think it will do the right thing.

BTW, my body does seem to like a can of V-8 when I get home.

The normal serum osmolality is between 285 and 319 mOsm/kg H2O. It may differ by laboratory performing the test.

Gatorade is pure sugar water. If the osmolarity is 900, your body will add water until it is ~300, then suck out the sugar and water together, replenishing the water to your body. Meanwhile, you are losing water to sweat and breath. If the lag time it takes to dilute the gatorade and then reabsorb is too long, you get dehydrated. Drinking more gatorade won't fix this because it only increases the delay. Drinking straight water would help since that both dilutes and adds water.

Pedialyte does NOT contain calcium or magnesium, both essential electrolytes that are depleted during exercise. It also contains SOME dextrose. Dextrose is a monosaccharide which is worse than sucrose for boosting your blood sugar because it only contains a single glucose molecule per "unit of osmolarity".

Immediately upon ceasing exercise, your muscles are trying to replenish glycogen and if your blood sugar is low, that is coming from fat and protein, neither of which is efficient. The result is within 45 minutes everything calms down, the fat and protein burn slows and your muscles settle in on the glycogen level they got.

If you want to increase your muscles' glycogen stores capability and prevent the burn up of your proteins (muscles), you need to dump a lot of glucose and some aminos in your blood asap.

The sweet spot (pun intended) for glucose absorption is with the mid-length glucose polymers found in malto-dextrin. Longer polymers (starches, more glucose/molecule) take too long to break down. Shorter polymers (dextrose-sucrose, one or two glucose/molecule) don't deliver enough per molecule. The important thing is the osmolarity, which is primarily the number of molecules per unit of water. For the same osmolarity, dextrose delivers one glucose while malto delivers about 10 glucose.

You also need a broader spectrum of electrolytes than just salt or lite salt (sodium-potassium). Take at least a calcium-magnesium supplement as well, or choose foods that boost them.

I must take issue with the "nature knows best" meme. If that were the case, then the plague and flu pandemics wouldn't have occurred, we wouldn't get gangrene from untreated wounds, and we wouldn't have famine. Nature doesn't "know" anything - it just is.

Eat natural and healthy, but know what is in what you are eating and why you are eating it. Your body is excellent at working with poor environmental choices such as diet and stress. That doesn't mean it is working optimally or even close to it. Get your vaccine shots, treat your wounds with anti-biotic ointments, and eat to maximize your body's capability.

Since I have switched from gorp and granola on trail (starch, fats, and sugars) to malto-amino sources, I've found an enormous difference in performance and consequently enjoyment of the hikes. Leisure hikes that used to have me huffing on the hills have become like a stroll in the park. Deep glycogen stores let me skip like a mountain goat up short, steep climbs where I used to slow to a plodding pace.

malto-dextrin ... Guinness is good for you

I must take issue with the "nature knows best" meme. If that were the case, then the plague and flu pandemics wouldn't have occurred, we wouldn't get gangrene from untreated wounds, and we wouldn't have famine. Nature doesn't "know" anything - it just is.

The two terms seem to be misused in some posts.

OsmolaRITY- defined as 1 osmol of a nonelectrolyte dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water.

OsmolaLITY- measure of the number of dissolved particles in solution.

Thanks for that Nathan... it was interesting to learn a bit more about the science behind it.

" No one in the sports drink world has managed to get it right and you're not likely to either."

I've managed to get it right enough to backpack at a pretty decent level in metabolically stressful environments and run one of the tougher trail marathons around twice after having my life, as you put it, "on the line" in my first attempt. I did so by educating myself enough to understand what was going on and devising ways to deal with the stresses I was putting on my body. In my case, at least, off the shelf ingredients seemed to suffice, because I haven't had ny problems since then. I stand by my statement, "close enough for field work" as proven by my own experience. I would apply that statement to a couple of companies in the sports drink world as well, again based on my experience with their products. I strongly suspect they just might have a chemist or two on staff, and maybe even a few exercise physiologists. Several others in the community seem to be doing just fine by pursuing similar strategies. I think you are overstating your case.

"OsmolaRITY- defined as 1 osmol of a nonelectrolyte dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water.

OsmolaLITY- measure of the number of dissolved particles in solution"

Osmolarity = osmoles of solute / liter of solution

Osmolality = osmoles of solute / kilogram of solvent

They both measure the number of disolved particles in a solution; the difference is that one is in terms of particles per mass of solvent, while the other is per volume of solution.

For our purposes, the difference isn't that important as long as you make sure all your units are the same when you compare things.

"The Tarahumara for example... they drink water and sometimes they drink water mixed with chia seeds and lime."

With all due respect, the Tarahumara run incredibly long distances in very hot climates. They will require electrolytes just like anybody else. They have to get them somewhere.

" I trust her and not just in my particular case. Running a marathon or ultra is not an easy thing."

Lots of people here have run marathons and ultras. Your doctor is not unique in this regard. Referring back to the article you posted earlier from The Mayo Clinic, and I paraphrase: If you are engaging in strenuous activity for more than an hour, an electrolyte replacement drink may be advisable. I think the experience of most would be that you need to replace electrolytes when engaging in these activities. Elite athletes are probably more efficient at conserving electrolytes long enough to drastically reduce their replacement needs for the duration of their chosen event, but the rest of us would do well to pay close attention to replacing them during the event, as the May Clinic article indicates.

"If we are speaking about refueling after intense backpacking... good food should do that in combination with water. There should be enough nutrients in the diet you prepare for your trips to cover everything that your body needs both calorically and nutritionally. I steer clear of some of the UL food ideas that don't encompass a good variety of nutrition and I look for a decent ratio of carb to protein."

This is fine for shorter backpacking trips and after you have returned from any backpacking trip, but it is impractical when going on longer, unresupplied trips, IME and in the experience of the Arctic1000 crew and likely a few others on this site as well. The name of the game becomes calories, calories, calories, with enough carbs and protein to at least partially repair muscle tissue and support the metabolism of fat.

Edited by ouzel on 05/02/2012 21:00:18 MDT.

Good explanation of sugars. It's actually osmolality they measure and not osmolarity. The funny thing is when you call most of these sports drink manufacturers, they don't even have a clue what you're talking about when you ask about the osmolality of their product.
As far as nature knows best I think we all know I wasn't talking about the plague. And really nature has a plan(not exactly a conscious one I know) for pandemics. The point is to reduce population to keep it sustainable. It may not be the best thing for us personally but it is the best for the system as a whole. And nature does know far more about the chemistry of life than man will ever know. "The simplest cell in our body is more complex than all the technology man has ever created in his entire history." Quoted from a NASA flight surgeon who's name escapes me. Really my point was you can try all these fancy drinks and types of goo and even pedialyte but you are likely not going to be able to do any better than the simple things mother nature already provides. Most of the sports drink industry is hype, junk and good marketing. It's kinda like watering your lawn with city water and it grows ok. As soon as it rains though your lawn explodes. There's obviously something better about that water.
If you don't mind me asking what Malto-amino sources are you talking about. I use specific amino acids with athletes for recovery in addition to the simple stuff.

@Alan, I don't think 'plan' is a good word for what happens in nature. Pandemics happen because conditions are right for them. Ascribing value judgements such as 'better' is purely human hindsight. Any evolutionary biologist will tell you that evolution is not progress, it is change that works and that sticks.

And on top of all the discussion of the man-nature dichotomy is the simple fact that man is natural. Thinking, planning, inventing, building, and even deforestation are all natural processes. When locusts lay waste vast fields, it is no more natural than man plowing up ancient grasslands to plant Monsanto wheat. The difference is that man is more self aware and also more aware of the long term consequences of his/her actions. We have the luxury and the responsibility to guide our completely natural actions toward a future we plan for.

In our consciousness Nature has achieved a remarkable ability to reflect on itself. This is nothing new, everything we consider living has an internal model of its environment and mechanisms that react accordingly. Even rocks have a 'consciousness' of sorts in that their internal state reflects the environment around them - an example is a heat gradient when one side is warmed by the sun. Our consciousness is capable of great abstraction - we get to play with our model of the universe in ways completely detached from the reality they started from. And that too is completely natural because man is completely born of and immersed in nature.

And I put it to you that whenever you decide what you want to eat, you are applying your knowledge, experience, and advice from others. You are acting intelligently, humanly, and naturally. If you salt your food you are altering the chemical proportions of your meal. If you eat a banana you are taking advantage of the petrochemical, the transportation, and the financial industries because you have concluded you need more potassium after a long hike. All natural, all organic, all part of a planet waking up and noticing there is radioactive crap in its food chain so it should probably figure out a better way.

The malto-dextrin is bulk, I think made from some starch. The aminos are usually whey, sometimes soy protein. Always searching for better sources, but these are the best so far.

And as for chia seeds, I have nightmares about waking up with a green lawn growing on my stomach. :)

the school of hard knocks will teach you that w/ strenuous +1 hour activities you will be losing electrolytes to your detriment, the longer the activity the worse off your going to be- straight water isn't going to cut it on long runs

my post exercise drink (talking home not on the trail :)) is a homemade smoothy that contains a cup of nonfat yogurt, orange juice, a banana, an egg, a cup of frozen mixed fruits (buy it at Cosco) that has strawberry, mango, pineapple and papaya and scoop of whey protein

I take three endurolytes caps w/ the smoothy

the taste is good enough I could sell these at a booth :)

Edited by mtwarden on 05/03/2012 07:10:23 MDT.

In addition to electrolytes, which you can get from an Emergency-C or similar instant electrolyte fizzy drink, you'll need protein. I recommend always carrying the post-endurance event recovery sports drink of your choice that has the right ratio of carbs, protein and fats.

Of course everybody is different so the exaact amount will vary with the size and fitness of the individuals as well as the environmental conditions. IMHO, that means arguing about it here as if one answer fits all is kinda silly and smacks of one-upmanship. And as far as nobody in the sports world getting it right, well I wouldn't tell anybody involved in the Tour de France that! Just because technology is continually changing, doesn't mean the current thinking and products are completely wrong.

Endurox and Hammer Gel make some good ones for average endurance athletes, but there are so many on the market, a trip to the local running, cycling or triathlon store may be in order.

My 2 cents - I'm still fscinated at how many avid hikers on this and otther forums have yet to discover that from nutrion, to shoes, to clothes, runners have been donning UL and SUL items for decades now. A lot of the materials introduced in hiking gear (and priced quite high) have originated from these other endurance sports communities. And better quality items are a lot cheaper in the running stores than from backpacking sources as a result.

So before plunking down several hundred dollars for the latest cuben fiber SUL wind shrirt or rain jacket, you'll be surprised to see what a similar quality SUL runner's jacket sells for - hint about 1/3 the price!

Edited by veganaloha on 05/03/2012 04:32:15 MDT.

Reviewing the threads, I think maybe SUCCEED S Caps (or better, Salt Stick?) might be best for me. I can go with water, and add caps based on conditions or feel. They say if you feel your stomach slosh, you need electrolytes. I've felt that.

Interesting:

Succeed S Tab: 341 mg Sodium, 21 mg Potassium

Salt Stick Capsules: 215 mg Sodium, 63 mg Potassium, plus other presumably good stuff

12 oz. Original V-8: 600 mg Sodium, 670 mg Potassium, plus other known good stuff

Man, I am getting the potassium from V-8.

John

Update : fix copy paste error

Edited by JohnJ on 05/03/2012 10:49:43 MDT.

Unless you're toeing the line against Patrick Makau, I really think the average person will get by just fine with a normal diet and simply remembering to drink a lot after a hard effort. I've done a good deal of research and reading on Kenyan distance runners and have always come away absolutely amazed and humbled by how casual they are about their diets, training regimens, etc. They eat regular whole food, not too much, and drink a lot of water. Supplements are alien to them.

I think we tend to SERIOUSLY overcomplicate things out here.

I speak from experience here. I went through Running Overcomplication Syndrome BIG TIME when training for my first marathon (Mind you, I completely failed on that first marathon attempt, didn't even make the starting line. I was so wracked with different forms of training anxiety and injury, my first marathon didn't happen until the following year, only after I learned to relax and start to run the way that felt natural to me). I was out slogging 12 minute miles with a heart rate monitor on, checking my splits, watching my "zone", listening to beeps on the watch, timing my calorie and fluid intake, obsessing over electrolytes, worrying about my footwear, strapping on Batman-like utility belts full of gels and fluorescent colored fluids...

I seriously started feeling like an absolute chump. Those days are over for me (well, I do often still feel like a chump, but for other reasons now). Since when did it become so complicated to simply go out and run or take a hike?

Kenyan schoolchildren would be chuckling at us.

"My 2 cents - I'm still fscinated at how many avid hikers on this and otther forums have yet to discover that from nutrion, to shoes, to clothes, runners have been donning UL and SUL items for decades now."

+1 I would also add long distance biking especially in regards to nutrition.

One reason that this area seems to have so much varying opinion is because there is a huge spectrum of "need" based on the trips and events that folks are doing. The 10 mile a day backpacker won't have to optimize nutrition at all whereas someone shooting for sustained 40+ mile days had better have all aspect of nutrition dialed in. I know as I have bumped up my level of intensity over the years I continue to find new weak points in my nutrition plan that I have to address. I'm sure that will continue for some time to come.

Susan... I've noticed that price difference somewhat with gear/clothing and with items like Clif Bloks and GU.

Craig out of curiosity, on our GC run were you taking any electrolyte supplements at all? I think my nausea bout at mile 26 was possibly due to lack of sodium (this gleaned from several ultra running articles) even though I was taking endurolytes regularly (1-2 every hour), many advocate a much higher dose- in the neighborhood of 350mg/hour (I was getting roughly a third of that)

next long run I'm going to try a higher dose of Sodium, clearly something was wrong w/ my "plan", I prefer not to suffer through three hours of nausea my next long run :)

Mike

No electrolytes for me, other than what would be found in gels or some Perpetuem.
I did eat about 2 oz. of Fritos, but that was already at ~30 miles.

I've actually been reading a few interesting articles about eating/drinking during exercise, all by elite distance runners, all arguing for actually training on fewer calories in order to teach the body to require less during an event. Makes a lot of sense, especially as an elite, to want to minimize how many calories you need during a race/hard effort. They argue essentially teaching the body to try to run on less food and water, and to pschologically get comfortable with that. I was experimenting with this during a lot of my longer runs. I really do believe now that you can teach yourself to be too reliant on too many calories or visa versa, within limits. I know I now carry half as much food and water during training than I did when I started. I think people get a lot of unnecessary anxiety over calories. But who am I? :)

On the post-exercise note, at the R2R2R, pizza and beer certainly seemed to be the post run fuel of choice for everyone...I didn't have anything else except a quart of water before bed. Breakfast for me was coffee followed by an IPA :) Recovered just fine.

I would have to disagree with your Dr also. I have a doctorate in Nutrition and have treated hi level athletes for many years and I always get a better response with the right portion of electrolytes with plain water. The real issue is how you get that balance. Salt, potassium and magnesium being the most important ones to replace immediately. Calcium is stored in the bones so there is a large supply available. Of course you want to replace it but it's not as important as the others during say a marathon. With the majority of Mg being stored in the muscles it's one of the first to be fully depleted along with salt and then Potassium. You can lose large amounts of salt during vigorous exercise. That's why pedialyte for infants tastes salty(unless you buy the fake sweetened one which I don't recommend). And gatorade has very little of any of this. It's just sugar water. The RDA for potassium is 3500mg and I checked 1 type of gatorade and it has 35mg. And the RDA is too low. Optimal daily allowance for this nutrient is much higher. So 35 is just a drop in the bucket. Sodium RDA is 2400. Gatorade is 110 for sodium.
During a hot race an athlete can lose 1 liter/hr of water and there is about 3000mg of salt/liter of sweat. To get enough salt from gatorade you would have to drink about 1.5 gallons/hr or something like that. You would be severely dehydrated though due to all the sugar.
They have tested the Ironman finishers and 40% of them are dehydrated and hyponatremic.

Craig W. said -
"I've actually been reading a few interesting articles about eating/drinking during exercise, all by elite distance runners, all arguing for actually training on fewer calories in order to teach the body to require less during an event. Makes a lot of sense, especially as an elite, to want to minimize how many calories you need during a race/hard effort. They argue essentially teaching the body to try to run on less food and water, and to pschologically get comfortable with that."

Training can reduce your caloric Intake requirements. As you become more efficient your body is better able to metabolize fat at higher exertion levels. Elite women distance runners can approach 50% of their caloric requirements from metabolizing fat. The Total caloric requirements remain the same though.

I don't believe this extrapolates to fluid and electrolyte requirements. Calcium, yes as it can be sourced from bone. But sodium, potassium, etc. are not stored.

Edited by greg23 on 05/03/2012 17:03:27 MDT.

alan and others!
while good ole' fashioned h2O may hold substantial merit,
the bitter truth remains:
i'm easily bored with it!
besides coconut water (which i believe qualifies as an optimal post-exercise refreshment),
what other drink measures work well?
often i'll douse my water with fresh squeezed lemon or lime,
or in summer, will brew loose-leaf herbal tea for something soothing and nourishing.
(most herbal teas are vitamin/min. rich)
i typically don't purchase sports drinks and the like
(kombucha i drink after exercise sometimes as well)...
but plain ole' aqua, as good as it may be,
sometimes just doesn't hit the spot.
anyone else?
lt

About 50% of magnesium is stored in the skeleton and the other 50% is stored in soft tissues include skeletal muscle, liver, heart muscle. That means most magnesium is stored in the skeletal system. It's doubtful that magnesium will be depleted first in a marathon in the healthy runner.

Edited by jshann on 05/03/2012 12:35:01 MDT.

The most important thing to remember about Mg is that it is involved in 250+ reactions in the body behind Zinc which is 300+. These are two nutrients you don't want to run low on. Low Mg levels are highly associated with heart attacks. Just think of those athletes that drop on the field and have heart attacks out of nowhere. It's also highly involved in the kreb's cycle which is for energy production so letting it run low in extreme exertion is not good.

What's missing are data on rates of loss versus replenishment of Ca and Mg from bones during and after exercise. Alan gave numbers for Na in sweat. I take it that replacement of useful Mg from bones doesn't occur fast enough for the endurance athlete.

Until I get better source info, I'm inclined to go with recommendations from say, Hammer on good replenishment protocols during and after exercise. For a typical 165 lb male, 500-600 kcal/hour exertion, moderate temperatures, and multi-hour effort, they recommend 3 caps of their Endurolytes product per hour:
Na 120mg
Cl 180mg
Ca 150mg
Mg 75mg
K 75mg
Mn 48mg
and a whopping 10 times the RDA for B-6 per hour.

And for poor Leslie who only wanted tasty drink suggestions, I like weak Emergen-C to slake my thirst, or sun tea if I'm so lucky to have remembered to have some brewing.

+1 on the fewer calories Greg M.

Endurance athletes know this. Yet with long distance hikers there is the constant advice to just keep shoveling in calories no matter what their nutrient profile is. While eating snickers is great and all, cramming in 3500 calories worth of simple sugar versus 3500 calories garnerd from a good mix of quality protein, carbs, fat, vitamins, minerals and water (which are the 6 basic nutrients needed by humans) is hardly the right thing to do.

I get that the best food is the stuff you'll actually want to eat, that's why I advocate a variety of whole food items as well as a good quality meal replacement and a sports drink mix to ensure quality nutrition instead of just looking at total calories. By doing this, you actually need less calories to sustain your activity and to recover from exertion. Of course, like any endurance athlete, you actually have to train this way in advance to dial in your nutrition plan and to have your body adapt, especially to taking in calories while you're moving, ie. eating while you hike. A well-conditioned body will use calories more efficiently and then need less. total calories to preform work.

For hikers, this also means you carry less and your food budget is less. Bonus and bonus!

That said, I do love a cold, dark beer and a good pizza as a reward, first meal in town.

Cheers,
Susan

"The funny thing is when you call most of these sports drink manufacturers, they don't even have a clue what you're talking about when you ask about the osmolality of their product."

That is very likely because you're talking to a front office type. If you analyze the label on Hammer Perpetuem, for instance, or First Endurance's Ultragen, I think you will find there is a method to their madness that would indicate that, somewhere within the bowels of their respective organizations, there is someone who probably has a clue as to what osmolality means. I mention these two companies because I have had a lot of experience with their abovementioned products, as have others I know. We have all found them highly effective as compared to what were using beforehand. If anyone checks out the nutrition label on Ultragen, they will notice that it contains 60 grams of GLUCOSE per serving. It has never caused me any trouble at the end of long days backpacking, nor anybody else I know of. It definitely improves my recovery, as evidenced by how I feel the next morning after a long, hard day of hiking as compared to before I started using it. YMMV, and there may be better options out there that I am unaware of. My reason for this post is primarily to dispel the notion that everybody at every sports drink company is either clueless, a charlatan, or both. I simply know better from experience, my own and others.

Tom,
Perhaps there has been a change -

"Total Carbohydrate (100% from Dextrose) 60g"

I don't have a clue how dextrose compares to glucose.

"During a hot race an athlete can lose 1 liter/hr of water and there is about 3000mg of salt/liter of sweat. To get enough salt from gatorade you would have to drink about 1.5 gallons/hr or something like that. You would be severely dehydrated though due to all the sugar."

Pedialyte contains 1035 mg NA/liter, per their website. This means an athlete would have to drink 3 liters of Pedialyte/hour to replace 3000 mg og NA. I doubt that is realistic either. Do you have a solution, or is the idea just to keep the deficiency within physiologically tolerable limits?

One solution is to make your own "electrolyte caps" by filling "Double Ought" gelatine capsules with "Lite Salt" plus what ever else you want. One capsule with regular salt contains about 500 grams of sodium.

I take two (regulars) per every liter of "re-fill" water. And then adjust as needed, depending on how I feel, moderated by my training experiences. I get enough potassium from race day bananas.

Doing capsules lets you moderate and balance water versus electrolytes. It's the same reason my "phood" is separate from my water.

Edited by greg23 on 05/03/2012 17:20:43 MDT.

"all arguing for actually training on fewer calories in order to teach the body to require less during an event. Makes a lot of sense, especially as an elite, to want to minimize how many calories you need during a race/hard effort. They argue essentially teaching the body to try to run on less food and water, and to pschologically get comfortable with that."

I have to agree with Greg M on this one, Craig. It requires a certain amount of clories to do a certain amount of work, in this case moving a certain amount of weight(the runner) a certain distance(the race). That is basic physics. It is a question of where the calories come from. The higher a person's VO2 max, the greater their capacity to derive the required calories from body fat, thereby reducing the requirement for dietary calories. He and several others have it nailed on electrolytes, as well. Your experience during R2R2R was distorted by the cold weather. If it were as hot as it typically is, you would very likely been in deep doo doo without supplemental electrolytes. I hope you give this some serious consideration in your planning for any ultra you do where the weather is expected to be hot. My 2 cents.

"I don't have a clue how dextrose compares to glucose."

Dextrose and glucose are synonyms.

certainly hydration, electrolyte maintenance and nutrition are very individual, what works for one isn't going to work for all (would be nice if it was that easy)

for myself- my next long run I'm going to try a S!cap w/ an endurolyte or two/hour- I need to find out for myself if my down turn was lack of Sodium; from the ultra discussions I've read Sodium loss is ~ 900-1400 mg/ liter of sweat and it's very common to lose a liter of sweat/hour

Back to personal subjectivity here.

I've never taken electrolyte supplements, ever, from running marathons to 50Ks and beyond, as well as 200+ mile cycling events.
That's not to say I don't believe in taking something, but I've always found that I seem to get adequate salts simply by throwing in some salty calories. Yes, this is even during hot weather. The majority of my ultracycling days were spent in Death Valley and the surrounding deserts.

When I'm saying that a person can train to run on less, I'm not saying a person can run on nothing; big difference. But you can, both psychologically and physically adapt and learn/teach your body to require less- which is exactly what Greg M. is saying about endurance athletes switching into fat burning faster.
If you give your body a steady stream of carb calories on every run, and never teach yourself to simply cope with shifting from glycogen to fats, you'll bonk faster than an athlete who is used to this. That's been my understanding, anyway.

As for not eating anything particularly special, again, I cite the Kenyans. Ugali, milk, sugar, small portions of meat, and fruits and veggies seem to work fine for them to hammer out sub 5 minute miles without supplements, electrolyte pills, or science food. We're no different; humans are humans, it's how you train/condition yourself that makes the difference. That's not to say supplements won't work; but I do think we overcomplicate things.

"but I do think we overcomplicate things"

Yes we do. Sometimes I am amazed how complicated many people seem to make simple things.

"Sometimes I am amazed how complicated many people seem to make simple things."

Doesn't get much simpler than 1/4 tsp of Mortons Lite in a liter of H2O to chase a slug of Perpetuem. No lunch bag, no greasy fingers, no teeth brushing. Just sip and walk. All day.

whoops- beat to it

Edited by Ike on 05/03/2012 21:22:19 MDT.

I think I'm coming off sounding harsh or critical of others here, so let me try to simplify. Not trying to be argumentative, just another perspective.

1. Post exercise refueling: If it works for you great. But the very term "post exercise refueling" reeks of overcomplication. Most people simply call it eating, and do a fine job of it with a banana, a big glass of water, etc. I think plenty of companies have discovered that if they make certain things sound complicated, people will assume the solutions are complicated...and a new product is sold. Like all of the "recovery" drinks out there that essentially have the exact same nutrition profile as chocolate milk.

2. During exercise eating: Obviously, we have to. Do whatever works for you, I'm not knocking it. But I do believe, from personal experience, that people overcomplicate this too. Granted, the Kenyans I mention aren't often running for 8 hours at a time, but at the same time, I think we often get trapped in a little too much of the hype that gets generated to sell sports foods, sports drinks, sports gels, sports supplements...Certainly these things have their place in some situations.

3. There are plenty of elites out there that do subscribe to a very scientific, supplement-based approach to eating/drinking during and after workouts. But I would argue that are are also quite a few top notch athletes out there that don't. Again, many Kenyans, both established and up-and-comers come to mind here. They just eat and drink sensibly; no measuring calories, sodium, carbs vs. fats vs. proteins, no laboratory recovery drinks. Just sensible eating.

Another example that comes to mind: the XC and track athletes I work with at my high school. I see kids that regularly knock down 15 minute XC 5Ks, 14 second 110 high hurdles, etc. We've got one of the state's top 4x400 relay teams right now. None of them use supplements. None of them think "post exercise refueling". They think "I'm hungry" and "I'm thirsty" and they eat bananas, granola bars, orange slices, and guzzle water at meets. I like how simple they approach things. Mention half of this sports nutrition to them and they're clueless. They just know hard work and to stay away from junk food.

Why do I hate overcomplication so much? I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money.

Edited by xnomanx on 05/03/2012 22:51:59 MDT.

"Why do I hate overcomplication so much? I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money."

Bingo! Elite athletes will need every advantage they can get in competitive sports. I'm glad I'm only going backpacking and don't need to worry with the hype. It seems the guy at the link below didn't worry about the hype too much either and his hike was pretty long.

http://andrewskurka.com/2010/the-5000-calories-per-day-wilderness-diet/

Your comments are spot on. It is overcomplication and a long ways from just eating. But sometimes and for some people that's the point. I come from a research engineering background and find it all massively fascinating. Drives my wife nuts.

As I think more about it, I see the whole UL effort as having two basic pieces. The first is to simplify. Get rid of the hauled around civilization. Learn what truly is needed. Enjoy where you are on its terms. Backpacking starts out with that in mind albeit rather naively. Over time the preconceptions about what is needed to live out there fall away until one is indeed living right there, right then.

Another piece starts to grow when we look critically at our gear as we simplify. In our lust for less, we discard the cotton, then the fleece, then the ripstop, then the pillow, and find ourselves in micro-GTX gossamer garments carried in spun polyethylene Spectra cuben fiber sacks and put tyvek pillowcases on our shoes at night to rest the corner of our heads on.

Why should we stop at going full tech on our gear? This is FUN! Test hikes with MPH versus grade and fatigue estimates. Underfueling and overfueling to find our limits. Measuring malto on a gram scale to strike the perfect carb absorption rate. Sheer osmohilarity!

So first we simplify, then we re-complicate, but now with purpose, experience, and fascination. Of course, HYOH and I hope to see as many of you as will walk the trails I will walk.

> I'm still fscinated at how many avid hikers on this and otther forums have yet to discover that from nutrion, to shoes, to clothes, runners have been donning UL and SUL items for decades now

I don't think it's about not discovering anything but about different means for different goals. Most UL and SUL items for runners don't translate well into backpacking.

"Not trying to be argumentative, just another perspective."

In the same vein, a few comments.

"1. Post exercise refueling: If it works for you great. But the very term "post exercise refueling" reeks of overcomplication. Most people simply call it eating, and do a fine job of it with a banana, a big glass of water, etc."

This works fine in the city. In my situation, on trips of the duration I generally take, it is not feasible to take bananas, chocolate milk, etc. Simplification is being able to pour a powder with a precisely measured number of calories, carbs, and protein into a bottle of water and slug it down to get my recovery started while I am setting up camp. It is NOT the way I eat after training hikes when I'm home. Just eating normal, natural food is far preferable then.

"2. During exercise eating: Obviously, we have to. Do whatever works for you, I'm not knocking it. But I do believe, from personal experience, that people overcomplicate this too. Granted, the Kenyans I mention aren't often running for 8 hours at a time, but at the same time, I think we often get trapped in a little too much of the hype that gets generated to sell sports foods, sports drinks, sports gels, sports supplements...Certainly these things have their place in some situations."

Again, what could be simpler than a powder containing very quickly absorbed carbs poured into a bottle of water to be sipped while on the move, alternated with a bottle of water containing a known amount of sodium, chloride, and potassium? This has the added advantage of not diverting blood from the working muscles to support the digestive process. The Kenyans generally do not run further than marathon distance, which is not a comparable situation to the one we are discussing.

"3. There are plenty of elites out there that do subscribe to a very scientific, supplement-based approach to eating/drinking during and after workouts. But I would argue that are are also quite a few top notch athletes out there that don't. Again, many Kenyans, both established and up-and-comers come to mind here. They just eat and drink sensibly; no measuring calories, sodium, carbs vs. fats vs. proteins, no laboratory recovery drinks. Just sensible eating."

These elites do so for a very good reason: There is a lot of scientific research that supports this approach for the kind of training they do. This is not to say there is no other approach, as the Kenyans obviously prove. Where the scientific approach comes into its own seems to be on the endurance end of the spectrum, think cycling and triathlons, etc, which most closely resemble longer duration, unresupplied backpacking. It's up to each individual to choose, but both approaches are valid, IMO.

"Another example that comes to mind: the XC and track athletes I work with at my high school. I see kids that regularly knock down 15 minute XC 5Ks, 14 second 110 high hurdles, etc. We've got one of the state's top 4x400 relay teams right now. None of them use supplements. None of them think "post exercise refueling". They think "I'm hungry" and "I'm thirsty" and they eat bananas, granola bars, orange slices, and guzzle water at meets. I like how simple they approach things. Mention half of this sports nutrition to them and they're clueless. They just know hard work and to stay away from junk food."

And I regularly used to knock out low 16 minute 5K's in my 40's. I didn't use supplements back then either, nor was it necessary. Beer was my recovery drink of choice. Looking back, I often wonder how things would have turned out if I had been more scientific about my post exercise regimen, not so much after a race, but after training runs that added up to 70 miles/week. I suspect either the scientific or the Kenyan approach would have produced better results. These days, the scientific approach only makes sense to me for refuelling on the move during training hikes, i.e. Perpetuem, and while I am on backpacking trips, when simplicity and knowing with a fair degree of precision what I am getting are of prime importance. To give you a better picture of where I am coming from: I carry 19 oz of food/day on trips up to 10 days and depend 3-4 pounds of body fat to make up the deficit. Knowing fairly precisely how much carbs and protein are in my carried food is very important if I am to come out the other end in good shape for the next trip. Sports drinks have role to play in this approach, and so far they have served me well. It seems pretty simple to me, once you have done your homework. I also do not generally cook my food, using a stove only to heat water for drinks. How many of you have a system simpler than that?

"I think a good deal of it has been pushed largely to separate athletes from their money."

Perhaps this is their intent, and there is certainly no shortage of garbage products on the market, but I think folks like myself, Greg G, Nathan, et al, are probably intelligent enough to sort out the hype from the useful material. The results speak for themselves as far as I'm concerned. That said, it up to each one of us to figure out what works best for them.

Interesting thread, huh?

Edited by ouzel on 05/05/2012 16:37:13 MDT.

"Beer was my recovery drink of choice."

Twenty years ago, that was fine for me.

--B.G.--

"No electrolytes for me, other than what would be found in gels or some Perpetuem.
I did eat about 2 oz. of Fritos, but that was already at ~30 miles."

I have seen a huge difference between taking and not taking electrolytes especially for long hot backpacking days. I used to hit the sleeping bag only to have jump up to get rid of cramps that would start in my fett and work it's way up my legs. This only happened once on my PCT hike, on a section when I was without my magic capsules and Malto mix.

As far as the "nutrition training" I think there is merit in the approach of training your body to operate with a scarcity of external energy. But, I am nowhere near the peak physical condition that I would have to be in to focus on this area vs. stacking all the cards in my favor and pushing for more of a physical workout. I would think that anytime you are pushing the nutritional limits you are sacrificing physical training.

Finally I want to build on Tom's comments on simplicity/complexity of various approaches. I do not believe there is a single answer that works. I suspect as you move up the intesity ladder some approaxches will experience issues. I have played around with long 35-40 mile hiking days eating such garbage as chocolate covered donuts and Oreos. And it worked as long as I maintained a certain level of consumption. Would that approach work for 50, 60 or a 100 miler? I suspect there would be a limit. But I have found a system that is simple and very effective up to the 60 mile limit ( and likely beyond.) I like to find a systm that works and stick with it, experimenting a bit to push the envelop a bit. It doesn't get much simplier than reaching into bucket and pulling out bags of flavored powder. Likely not for everyone but it is ideal for me.

Perpetuem has a lot of different elctrolytes in it, and probably in sufficient quantities that if you use it as your main food source you may never, or at least seldom, need electrolyte supplements.
However, Chloride is mysteriously absent from Perpetuem.
since I don't know what this does, can anyone comment ...

from Hammer

CHLORIDE is the relative anion (negatively charged ion) that accompanies sodium. This electrolyte is absolutely necessary in maintaining the osmotic tension in both blood and extracellular fluids. It's a somewhat complicated process, but to put it in the simplest terms, think of osmotic tension as being the proper balance and consistency of body fluids and electrolytes. An appropriate amount of chloride (as sodium chloride) supports, but does not override, the function of the hormone aldosterone in regulating and conserving proper electrolyte levels.

Cl is probably hooked onto both NaCl (sodium chloride, table salt) and KCl (potassium chloride). Table salt does not list chloride either?

Based on 2000 kcal per 8 hours hiking:

"Cheap" Trail bars (Nature Valley) $20.00
Quality Trail bars (Bonk Breaker) $16.00
Hammer Perpetuem + Endurolytes $11.80
Trader Joe's Pistachios (my fave) $11.00

MyoGel, MyoLytes $4.78

As in most things UL, DIY!

I just spoke to another patient yesterday who does mountain bike racing events(50+mi). He told me switching to pedialyte has made a world of difference for him. He said he drinks a lot less liquid now.