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Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison
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Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison on 04/04/2012 20:30:19 MDT Print View

I have a couple of places on my pack where I could use a quick release, adjustable lineloc buckle with line or a quick release, 1/2" adjustable buckle with webbing.

Here's a photo of the buckles and 2 feet of line or webbing.

here

Here's how they compare in weight.

Lineloc adjustable quick release buckle = 3.3 grams. Two feet of Atwood Rope 1/16" cord = 1.3 grams. Total = 4.6 grams.

1/2" adjustable quick release buckle = 2.8 grams. Two feet of 1/2" nylon webbing = 5.6 grams. Total = 8.4 grams.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison on 04/05/2012 10:27:28 MDT Print View

Daryl,
You forgot one part of the LineLoc3 WSR buckle assembly is the 2 to 3 inch 3/8 inch webbing to attach LineLoc3 WSR Buckle to the pack.It will add few grams to your weight.
Terry

Harald Hope
(hhope) - M

Locale: East Bay
weights on 04/05/2012 11:19:30 MDT Print View

I used 1/2 grosgrain for lineloc3 buckle, lighter than webbing. It is interesting to note how little difference there is though in weight.

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison on 04/05/2012 11:53:10 MDT Print View

Terry,

Your are right. So absolute weight would be a little higher for both buckles as they both need to be connected to the pack in some way.

I think the buckle to buckle comparison is still a good one though since both systems need to be connected to the pack at both the buckle and cord/web end. In other words the added connections cancel out in the side by side comparison.

Daryl

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: weights on 04/05/2012 12:52:41 MDT Print View

Harald,

For comparison I weighed 2' of 1/2" grossgrain webbing. So lineloc quick release buckle (3.3 grams) and 2' of 1/2" grossgrain (2 grams) comes to 5.3 grams total.

I threaded some of the 1/2" grossgrain through the lineloc adjustable buckle. Wasn't pretty. Had to spindle it to get it through the buckle and after it runs through the buckle a few times it starts to resemble a cord instead of webbing.

Did you find an advantage to using the grossgrain instead of cord?

Daryl

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison on 04/05/2012 12:56:11 MDT Print View

Daryl,

Thanks for this. Looks like you managed to source lighter webbing buckles than I did. If I had used a side-release line-loc and cord for my recent pack (lunch-bag rolltop with single y-strap), the difference would have been 5 grams or a bit less. With a two-buckle setup (eg, the new Murmur, or a rolltop with side buckles) the difference might have approached 1/3 oz--IMO, non-trivial in a sub 10 oz pack.

Plus, the line-locs look really cool. I think the Murmur is easily the best looking pack Gossamer Gear has ever made (tho' still not Zimmerbuilt beautiful). Noticed the new GG Crown uses line-locs too--maybe it is the latest UL style indicator. Like cutting the handle off a toothbrush, the weight savings is less important than signifying one's commitment to an ideal.

Balancing that is the premium cost of the side-release line-locs: also non-trivial. Still, I'll prob. get a couple sets to play with.

Terry Trimble
(socal-nomad) - F

Locale: North San Diego county
Lineloc Web Buckle Comparison on 04/06/2012 09:26:38 MDT Print View

Granite gear uses really cheap cord on their lineloc 3 compression system on their packs and compression bags that becomes frayed.

ULA used Line loc3 and cord at the shoulder strap attachment instead of webbing and ladder lock on one of their packs.
I did a experiment to see if I could make a lineloc only pack using cords for everything instead of webbing the only webbing I used was 3/8 inch to attach the line locs. The compression system worked out pretty good, The shoulder straps and belt worked okay,I even made a sternum strap out of cord. Being a light weight backpacker instead of ultra light backpacker it just did not work out for me.

But for a ultra light backpacker it might work out really good.It did reduce the weight of the pack.
Terry

Harald Hope
(hhope) - M

Locale: East Bay
grosgain for attaching on 04/06/2012 22:54:31 MDT Print View

I just ripped apart my first pack project, not sure if I have pics, but the idea is to use the ribbon to connect the line loc 3 to the pack, and cord for the adjuster / tightener parts.

one thing that's interesting is that the 2mm dyneema core cord is actually quite heavy, when I weigh tested it, it's heavier than 1/4" nylon flat tubular webbing, which surprised me, and I assume also heavier than regular nylon plain cord, probably a bit heavier, which is something to think about.

2mm weighs almost 2x what 1.5 / 1.25 mm weighs for dyneema core cord, 2mm lawson glowire works fine with lineloc3 stuff. My feeling was thinner cord would create problems with abbrasion, maybe 2mm is actually too thin for compression too in terms of rubbing on the material, not sure, only time tests would show it. I know the sides of my pack, tx07, when I took it apart, already had a lot of small light holes when I held it up to the light, and I'd only taken it for 2 city hikes to see how it felt (not great, which is why it's ripped apart now).

I'll post a pic if I have of that pack's cord stuff.

I do have a 28 gram stuff sack/day pack I made for fun, and that uses lineloc3 with 2mm dyneema core cord for shoulder strap adjuster, and 1/4" padded shoulder straps, tied to I think 1/2" grosgain loops. Kind of a pain to adjust, I'd rather use real webbing, but it does work. That convinced me that 1.4 oz/yd silnylon has no place in any backpack.

Edited by hhope on 04/06/2012 23:05:57 MDT.

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: grosgain for attaching on 04/07/2012 10:13:01 MDT Print View

It seems like the resistance to abrasion of both lineloc and cord would need to be pretty evenly matched, to prevent one or the other from wearing out rapidly. I've noticed the reflective stipe in glowire feels pretty abrasive--wonder if that's an issue?

Out of curiosity, Harald, by 1.4oz silnylon do you mean the 30D stuff, 1.1 oz before coating? What was your experience using it? (Apologies for thread drift).

Harald Hope
(hhope) - M

Locale: East Bay
no use on 04/07/2012 12:29:48 MDT Print View

Yes, the 30d stuff. It is completely obvious to me that the pack/stuff sack has almost no tear/puncture resistance, so I've never bothered using it, though I do think it's funny to have a crudely functional 28 gram backpack, heh. Plus the straps were a bit too short for comfort, of course. The actual idea was to have a stuff sack that could double as a small day trip day pack with only a 10gm penalty for the straps, it would work for that I guess. I wouldn't put more than about 5 pounds in a silnylon pack/sack judging from the feel of this little test pack.

If the stresses are distributed enough on the strap connection points I guess maybe it could go to 10 pounds, but that would be as much as I'd expect it to support without failing somewhere at some point in the near future. But the first stumble into a twig or branch or rock would put a hole in it, especially with internal weight/volume pushing out against the surface to make it taut.

But for an ultralight day pack, I have to admit I always chuckle when I see the weights listed for the rei light one people here like, for about 14 grams more I could make this type of pack be durable enough for light day hiking with long enough straps to be comfortable, and about 2x capacity, give or take. At 2oz I think I could have a pocket on it too, not sure.

To me, all you have to do is watch Joe V's progression on materials, he doesn't use silnylon for anything anymore, I believe anyway, and on the packs, quickly is moving away from straight cuben to the hybrid, which is the strength / waterproofness of cuben with the abrasion resistance of 40d polyester. I guess the dimension polyant wx21 and 07 materials are similar ideas, except a bit heavier due to thicker nylons in the sandwich. But the tx07 seems to have essentially no abrasion resistance at all, fun for an experiment though.

I really wish I could find the 70d 1.9 oz silnylon though in normal colors, ie not lime, red, or blackl. That is I think heavy enough to actually work. But that's I guess parachute material, and earth tones probably aren't that big in the parachute world, heh.

The abrasion that concerns me most with using cord for compression straps is the cord against the material, all the force that would be held by a 1/2 or 3/4 inch surface of webbing is instead placed onto a roughly .5 mm contact area of one side of the 2mm cord. I know something put holes into the material of the tx-07 dimension polyant I used for the pack body after only about 60 minutes of hiking with it.

If I get around to it I'll post some pics of using cord for straps and compression, nothing particularly original in it but pictures do show it better.

I've also wondered about the abrasion of the cord vs lineloc3, I'd guess 2mm cord will abrade, 3mm cord probably not so much. But the good thing with cord, unlike straps, is that it's tied on, not sewn on, so replacing it in the field is easy using some spare cord you would be carrying anyway.

Edited by hhope on 04/07/2012 12:41:39 MDT.