Paul,
Right you are. The two diagonals are 11' and 8' 9" from the numbers you listed. Exactly the reason the BMW tarp needs a rear pole to create more usable length.

Indeed... I used to use a DLG poncho which is larger and heavier than the BMW poncho, and the pictures from Brawney's site show the pitch I was describing. There are a number of other pitches which work well, but that is the easiest to perform from the inside.

But that's the past. In the last six months I switched back to using a rain jacket (Rainshield O2 when going extra light) and use a Spinnshelter as my tarp. I am much happier, even if it is several ounces heavier. What's more, it's lighter then when I used poncho + DWR bivy which was required when facing heavy wild/rain.

So much weight could be saved in packing alone that its crazy.

Store all your items in a large stuff sack. Then slip the stuff sack into your sleeping bag. (oops your using a quilt) well, wrap it around your stuff sack. Then put the whole thing in your pack liner along with your pad. close the pack liner and for extra protection wrap the ground cloth around the whole package. The packliner has holes for the straps of you pack if im not mistaken. sew some homade straps onto your pad. Use your guyline to compress it all. you've now eliminated many duplicated items

keep fast access items betweenpack liner and ground cloth (ex: poncho)

Why even bother with the smell proof bag. theres going to be smell on the outside anyways. You can also elliminate the bear bag and soft goods stuff sack. just hang everything you dont need in the stuff sack mentioned above.

Why do you need the poles to stow? If you stow the poles when you dont need them you must stop and remove your pack and then adjust the poles to your height and replace the pack then use the poles when you need them. this eliminates any hiking efficiancy you may gain with the poles. They are dead weight if you dont use them. you can save 3/4 a pound by switching to gossamer gear poles.

Your carrying almost as much out of the pack as in.Thats like cheating

Ok, I'm going to play the contrarion and write that I don't know if I buy into SUL backpacking. While I admire the scrutiny it entails when making a gearlist, I think any benefits it can possibly offer are offset by the drawbacks. The drawbacks I write of include:

1) The Poncho/Tarp set-up. In my experience, while the set-up in inclement conditions can be accomplished without getting too wet, I feel that it is way too much of a pain at the day's end when I am tired. One particular time, I had just slogged through late Spring snow, with a combo of sleet and rain blowing down hard. I was using an ID silponcho, all cinched up, yet I was soaked! So, I'm cold, miserable and just want to get the #$%$^@! shelter set-up. Oh man...it took me forever to set up that tarp. My fingers were clumsy and numb, I was tired, cold...it was a terrible experience that soured me on the whole poncho-tarp experience. The fact that I'm 6'3" doesn't help either.

2) It seems to me that it is more of a pi**ing contest mentality rather than just sound gear selection based on consideration of weight, safety margin, and cost. One example that I can cite is these new lines of synthetic insulation SUL garments. Sorry, but I've shopped around and tried out some of the stalwarts and feel that they offer so little in the way of warmth that they are practically useless to me (and I am VERY much a cold weather person). I live out East, so a down synthetic piece is out of the question for me given that I use a down sleeping bag. Thanks, I'll save money for gas and park fees by sticking with my now "roamy" 20 oz. Coal.

3) Creature comforts are not evil. Along the way, I have to give up the only lightweight pack that doesn't leave my shoulders hurting during day's end (Jam), I have to ditch the inflatable pad (sorry, 1" is useless to me...1.5" is heaven), and I have to ditch the comfort of sipping cocoa *while* eating breakfast and dinner because I can't bring my mug along. Someone rightly observed that cutting down on the big 3 is not enough to get you in the SUL domain. I agree: other sacrifices are warranted. I think it is a clear case of diminishing returns for me at that point. Sure, simplicity is great, but unfotunately most of my life is spent living an urban life. I get away 4-5 days at most. There is a certain level of discomfort that obscures the enjoyment of being outdoors for me. I want restful sleep, a painless shoulder, a happy lower back, and that perfect moment of sipping cocoa while eating my cous cous and watching the perfect sunset. That's more important to me than shedding the 3.5 extra pounds in my gear.

This might be anathema, but my name is Tony and I AM a staunch 8.5 lbs base weight backpacker. ;-) But, by all means explore the SUL domain and I'll keep enjoying your exploits!

Hi David,
If wearing clothes and shoes while hiking, and using trekking poles is cheating, I'm guilty! The 4.0 lbs of "Total Worn or Carried While Hiking” consists solely of clothes I’ll be wearing while hiking and the trekking poles.

You make some good points. I could use Gossamer Gear poles and probably will for the rest of my SUL trips. I chose collapsible poles for this trip so when I need to swim sections in the canyon, I can tie the collapsed poles to the TorsoLite along with the pad when I’m floating my pack. Of course Lightrek poles float, so that would be another option.

I could save some pack weight (3.9 oz) by ditching the pack. I’d need to add back in the weight of the straps for your configuration (1.5 oz?) and I’d need to use a pack cover with holes for the straps instead of the pack liner (like a big plastic bag) that I’m using. That wouldn’t work well for my canyoneering trip when I’ll be counting on the pack liner to help keep my sleeping bag dry, but would on other trips. The ground cloth I’m using is so small, I’m not sure how well it would wrap around the “package.” Also, I can’t quite see trying to glue straps to the self-inflatable TorsoLite. Ditching the pack would save approximately 2.4 oz, a significant savings, so it’s worth some experimentation to try to come up with a packless system that would work with my gear.

I’m only using 1 stuff sack (turkey bag for sleeping quilt and clothes) and want the redundancy of a waterproof stuff sack and pack liner since I’ll be floating my pack.

I can, and will, eliminate the Aloksak OP sak. There aren’t bears, just small animals. I’ll keep the 0.2 oz food bag (plastic Walmart bag), but I can get rid of the 0.5 oz “bear” rope. I’ll use my food as a pillow, and tie my pack to the TorsoLite with guyline. So, your ideas will save me 1.4 oz. Thanks!

Ha! Good movie, Tony.
My name is Carol and I AM a SUL experimenter.

Can you post your gear list as I agree with you, some basic comforts are a requisite

You could actualy put the pad on the outside of the liner mabey. But realy youve cut down your list beyond need everywhere but in the pole department. With the litetreks you could bring some extra luxery items.

What kind of canyon is it? If its a slot canyon then why bring all this sun protection? But then its your list.

David,
Changing poles won't allow me to bring more luxury items - the poles aren't included in the total in pack base weight - what I'm keeping sub-5-lbs.

The canyon is not a slot canyon. West Clear Creek goes through sections of narrows, but I think I'll be exposed to the sun most of the time.

I could use line wrapped horizontally around the package, and slide some kind of webbing straps formed into a loop under the lines to form straps. No sewing or glueing to the pad required.

Sorry slipped my mind about carrying the poles. DUH. But you strap idea is a good one. The idea of using teqnigue to compleatly eliminate the pack in backpacking is sort of weird but its cutting edge.

Useing your idea with the straps allsom allows this system to stick around when you ditch the inflatable to make room for winter clothes

If you get rid of the sleeping bag/quilt and the pad you save a pound and a half of pack weight. Just sleep on the ground in your clothes. If its raining you can pitch the tarp, or just wear it. If you get cold at night, you can hike at night and sleep during the day.

In fact, if you just wear the poncho/tarp then you eliminate the secondary use for the trekking poles and can justify getting rid of them too! That's another pound gone.

You can then also get rid of the stakes, lines and assorted pitching paraphernalia for a few more ounces. Eliminate the cooking gear and it's a few more ounces. But, really it's kind of silly to be arguing ounces when there's pounds to get rid of in the sleeping bag, pad and poles (although the poles don't count toward base weight, you still have to carry them).

That puts you at about 3 pound base pack weight, plus you've lost a pound of your carry weight from the poles.

Have fun,
B

Carol

Edited by rmoak on 06/03/2005 00:01:31 MDT.

Carol,

Good luck on your sub 5 pound adventures. I’ve long felt 5 pounds wasn’t an impossible goal. I’ve done overnights in fall and spring with just the cloths on my back and the 10 essentials stuffed in my pockets. Winter overnights were done with what was typically carried in day pack while ski touring or about 3 to 4 pounds. But as with Ryan and Alan’s trips survival was the key not comfort.

Now that I’ve got some good basic ultralight gear built, over the last few months I’ve been looking at SuperLight gear. The goal being something that provided the same level of comfort found in your normal 3 season gear. So it needs to support weather extremes from low 20’s to over a 100 degrees. The other criterion is durability. It’s rather easy to build something light if durability isn’t a serious factor. But how can one build a sub 5 pound pack capable of surviving a 5 month thru-hike without either babying the gear to the max or replacing every item one or more times.

It also seems clear that designing such gear requires a greater degree of integration. I’ve toyed with several core components but am still working on developing the unified theme that ties together function, weight, durability and comfort. Not sure whether it’s possible but it’s a fun challenge.

Ron.

Edited by rmoak on 06/03/2005 00:00:18 MDT.

HI Ron!
Glad to hear you're putting your talented design mind to SUL. Can't wait to see what you come up with!

I've done a 5-day survival "backpack" with just a fanny pack. My goal in the SUL Challenge is different. I want the gear to be "transparent" so the wilderness comes into focus. With survival level gear, that's what I focus on - survival. With too much gear, that's what I focus on - gear. I want to find out if 5-lb is the place where I don't need to constantly focus on survival AND the gear doesn't distract me from my surroundings.

Carol, what exactly do you mean by "transparency?"

Andrew, contact me offline (abad@mit.edu) with your email address and I'll send you my gear list. I just figured that given the topic, posting my gear list here might be inappropriate.

-Tony

Hi Tony,
I was just getting a little poetic. The gear is there to help me enjoy the wilderness, not to be the focus of the trip, i.e. be transparent.

Ryan mentioned a 3/8 closed-cell foam with a cured surface for sub 5 pound weight. The REi blue is not cured and the other pads I have ran across lately are not cured either. What brand and store is carrying the cured surface version.

Lacking a cured surface and thus possibly a soaked pad, wouldn't one put the pad under the ground sheet to keep dry?