Water Proofing a Talon 44
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gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
Water Proofing a Talon 44 on 03/22/2012 16:57:19 MDT Print View

So the osprey talon 44 is composed of a few different nylon based materials, none of which are silicone treated (to my knowledge)
http://www.ospreypacks.com/en/document/download/61

so my question is will a simple spirits and silicone mixture water proof this bag plenty fine?

will they work for all the materials? or just the two main nylons minus the stretchy material-nylon mix?

other options i should consider other than just a rain cover?

should I do both the inside and outside? should i seam seal as well?

please share your opinions and tips.

Thanks,
Gunther

Konrad .
(Konrad1013) - MLife
maybe im not getting it on 03/22/2012 17:15:26 MDT Print View

I don't really understand why BPL is having this recent surge of interest in water proofing packs. What ever happend to the tried and true (and UL of course) method of just using a trash compactor bag as a pack liner? By the time you're done fussing with sealant, seam tape, sil treatments, etc, you'll have gained more weight than simply using a trash compacter bag inside your pack. The same goes for the amount of water your pack will absorb...it's not really that much at all, so why bother? Care to share?

I've never had the desire to own a full waterproof bag. The only time where I can see it being useful is if I were a packrafter.

Anyhow, I do not feel that a spirit/silicone mixture is the way to go. It'll be heavy to coat the pack, and its not durable at all. Just live with the fact that your talon is not a waterproof pack and not intended to be.

Edited by Konrad1013 on 03/22/2012 17:20:23 MDT.

Robert Dusing
(morob325) - F

Locale: texas
waterproofing a talon 44 on 03/22/2012 17:19:37 MDT Print View

The fabrics used for the talon 44 have a urethane coating to keep out water, similar to a silicone coating. However, the seams aren't sealed and there's a large zipper along the bottom of the pack so it isn't totally waterproof. Despite these access points, the pack keeps out rain pretty well. I have one and when I have things that need to stay dry, I just pack them in a drybag. A pack liner is also an option.

gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
some clarification... on 03/22/2012 18:09:13 MDT Print View

not looking for a water proof pack...

rain resistant is the term i should have used, 3mm compactor bags are the way i have been going for a long time and they work good but i find often that they stretch/tear/get holes in um easier than nylon does... for what ever the reason that may be (nature of the material/my nature).
regardless i would not like to have to worry about one extra thing. i use my pack inside my tent a lot as a foot or head rest and when things come down to it this summer is the sierras my packs is going to be around lots of water. so id like it if it would repel water a bit more so i don't have to worry about it. and my pack has a stretchy material on it that acts like a socks, so yes, when it gets wet it gains a good amount of weight.

not worried out 3 extra ounces of sealent on my bag... i'd go through 3 ounces worth of bags this summer anyway, its just a personal prefrence, not an absolute truth, keep that in mind.

thanks,
Gunther

gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
Re: waterproofing a talon 44 on 03/22/2012 18:12:19 MDT Print View

hmm from my experience it bleeds pretty good, though that was in a ridiculous amount of rain. urethane hmmmmmm...

when then IDK maybe i'm S.O.O.L

Robert Dusing
(morob325) - F

Locale: texas
seal the seams on 03/23/2012 15:09:51 MDT Print View

If you're getting water in from rain then applying some kind of tape or sealant to the seams would be my next move. That's likely where the water is getting in unless you've worn the urethane off the fabric which could happen over time. The talon has a complex design with lots of seams so it is more susceptible to those leaks than other simpler, ultralight packs.

Ultra Magnus
(Ultra_Magnus) - F
Re: some clarification... on 03/23/2012 15:18:47 MDT Print View

"...3mm compactor bags are the way i have been going for a long time and they work good but i find often that they stretch/tear/get holes in um easier than nylon does... for what ever the reason that may be (nature of the material/my nature)."

Maybe this would be a more practical solution?
http://sticksblog.com/2011/05/16/zpacks-cuben-fiber-18x36-dry-sack-pack-liner/
I've never seen cuben fiber first hand but I would imagine it would be more durable than a plastic trash bag. If Zpacks doesn't have one that's exactly right for you pack, maybe you could get a custom one made.

BM

gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
Re: seal the seams on 03/23/2012 15:45:39 MDT Print View

seam sealing, good idea. Ill take a look at the seems again and how much more sealent i have left...

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: Re: waterproofing a talon 44 on 03/23/2012 18:17:42 MDT Print View

You could probably just ReviveX/Nikwax the bloody thing. It's probably the easiest option and if it doesn't work you may be SOL anyway.

And yes, they older ones (I had an orange) bled all over the place. I have a newer one (the green) and have been in some heavy and sustained downpours without any bleeding issues yet.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
waterproof zips on 03/24/2012 20:29:42 MDT Print View

Gunther,
Sorry, did not understand your inquiry well, but if the zip is not designed and made to be waterproof, don't think you can make it that way. The teeth by their very nature will admit water when closed, so the zipper tape is waterproof, and designed to close behind the teeth with a tight seal.

They work fairly well, but ever since using them on packs, I've also continued to design in zipper flap covers just like those that packs used to have before the waterproof zippers came into use. This has worked very well, and I've had no leakage into pockets or the pack bag when hiking in heavy and extended rains. This is with the last two packs, one of a ripstop nylon with a thick coating, formerly sold by OWF as "storm," and the other of Spectra gridstop, formerly sold by Seattle Fabrics. Oddly, the OWF stuff had no DWR on the outer, despite the thick inner coating, and had to be drenched on the outside with Tectron before use. It wasn't very abrasion resistant, either.

But the waterproofness on the gridstop began to fail a little last summer after several years, as did the 1.9 oz. silnylon used for the stuff bags and extension sleeve. It could be the seam sealant just dried up, but judging from the location of the slight leaks, I think it may have been the coating on the material itself

So, as noted today on the GEAR forum, the next pack will be 5 oz. Xpac, VX07, and I expect the waterproofness will last longer on this one. Don't know why anyone would not want a waterproof pack. The weight penalty is only a few ounces, and the convenience is super. Will still use a drybag when on the water, though.

EDIT: Well, duh, so the Talon is a pack, not a zipper. Without trying to source the Osprey materials, they probably are, as already mentioned in another post, urethane coated. If you think they need more coating, there are urethane coating products, like SeamGrip Tent Sure, tent floor sealant.

Edited by scfhome on 03/24/2012 20:43:04 MDT.

gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
urethane seem sealer?\ on 03/25/2012 11:16:49 MDT Print View

is there a difference then between urethane and silicon coating. because the was you describing it, it seems the answer is no

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Water Proofing a Talon 44 on 03/25/2012 23:40:17 MDT Print View

Yes, there is a difference. The Tent Sure is made for a urethane coated fabric.
It will not adhere to silicone coated nylon, or 'silnylon.'
Conversely, a silicone sealant is not your best choice for a urethane coating.

Silicone can be obtained in GE silicone sealant, or different brands of sealer intended for silnylon, or in NAPA clear windshield sealants. It is often thinned with either mineral spirits or camp stove fuel, to seal seams.
Roger Caffin, one of the BPL editors, has posted that he has tried the thinned silicone on silnylon floors, and that it eventually peeled off.

But as noted, the Osprey pack is probably made of urethane coated fabric, as that is the case with most pack fabrics, especially those from large manufacturers.
So the Tent Sure, a water based urethane intended for fabrics (but not to seal seams), would beef up the coating on the Talon pack, and is intended to be applied to the coated side. But don't put it on too thickly, as that will make peeling more likely.

If you are interested in a waterproof pack, buy something with a good coating on the fabric to begin with, and if it is urethane coated, seal it with McNett SeamGrip sealant. That's a good one for seams on urethane coated nylon.

Note that some of the manufacturers now claim they are using coatings that are a mix of both silicone and urethane, or have one of each on each side of the material. In that case, follow the manufacturer's directions to choose whether to use silicone or urethane seam sealers and coatings.

Sorry for the confusing response. Hope the above is clearer.

gunther kirsch
(goonch92) - F

Locale: Northern California
thank you on 03/27/2012 22:26:03 MDT Print View

that clarifies a lot. I have some free time and a little bit of cash so i think ill get on this soon.

Ill let yall know how it goes

Matt Allen
(zeroforhire) - MLife
+1 for trash bag on 03/30/2012 10:12:52 MDT Print View

I have always had great luck with the 3mm trash bags. They work fine... Pretty light... And last awhile.

Oh, and spray the pack with scotch guard if to want... It might help.