Yes, Cesar I ask that you please stick to the original question. I am really curious to hear others opinions as it relates to Christianity and the points I have raised. If you start a thread about the existence of God we can discuss that and I will post my beliefs regarding that, but for this thread I really want to hear what people think about this topic.

n/m.

OP has already spoken out. This is Ty Ty's thread, and I'm sure Cesar will respect it.

Edited by ben2world on 03/19/2012 12:31:04 MDT.

Anything outside of time and space, by definition, does not exist. If you are suggesting that your god exists outside of time and space yet somehow exists in a so-called spiritual realm, you are only making things more difficult for yourself, as this begs many questions.

For example, if I told you that I have a perfect argument that absolutely disproves the Christian god, but it exists in a magic book outside of materialism in a spiritual library outside of time and space... would you believe me? Why or why not?

Cesar:

Why be so rude?

Ty Ty:

I'm interested in seeing your topic continued. I mentioned the near absence of any condemnation of other religions in the Bible. And that stands in such contrast to the continued emphasis that the Law is limited and cannot lead to salvation.

Jesus was never shy at pointing people away from ways and means that didn't/wouldn't/couoldn't work. But all the times that he spoke in public squares... he never once condemned any non-Jewish religion. And the one time he spoke about his way as being the only way -- that was to a Jewish audience -- presumably trying really hard to get them to move beyond the Law!

All the above, plus the fact that God is love, just don't sum up to 'all non Christians will go straight to hell' -- as some Christians like to say.

Edited by ben2world on 03/19/2012 12:39:22 MDT.

I don't think all Christians believe in hell. I am no biblical scholar, but it is my understanding that the earlier versions of the bible that are closer to the source have no mention of hell. I think King James really "helled up" the bible, if I remember correctly.

>"God did not create any religion"

>If you believe in Christ as a diety then yes, he did.

Yes, Christ's teachings are the foundation of Christianity, but it seems to me that what evolved into the religion of Christianity were the workings of man.

A very fine line, indeed....maybe even the same thing. Many, many semantic and interpretive issues in these subjects, for sure, and I don't claim to know the answers. All I can do is offer my opinion based on what I know. But we all know nobody is going to convince anyone of anything on these forums, and I surly won't try! :)



>I cannot prove to you that a God exists. I believe this is called faith.

Yes, the point is not to have to prove anything about God. Once you set upon trying to prove he exists, that implies doubt of his existence, thus negating solid faith in him.


Edit: Sorry for the thread drift. I see that there was already an issue about it.

Edited by T.L. on 03/19/2012 12:40:47 MDT.

Cesar- You're kind of asking us to eat the whole elephant rather than just chewing on
a piece of it. You might like to read CS Lewis or GK Chesterton as they talk about coming
to faith through a process of reason. Chesterton has a wonderful,sometimes biting, wit.
I don't know where I would start to be an apologist.

There is an experiential component to Christianity, as well as the leap of faith most
take. Many call such their testimony. Because such is anecdotal, I don't know if a
testimony would be proof enough for you. Many Christians would say that God prompts them
to make a choice(s) to engage with him.

"Anything outside of time and space, by definition, does not exist"

Whose definition? Can you define time and space?

"If you look at your question from a much broader 'religious' perspective, then your math comes up with a very different calculation. Just using one book is a false starting point."

Doug - I agree, as a WASP kid in America I am coming from a Christian perspective. From my view point/the way I was raised the Bible is the truth given to us by God, read it, obey it, ignore other religions because they are not truth.

I fully accept the fact that I could have missed/am missing scriptures where the Bible is limited in scope to Jews, I could have easily mis-read it, skipped over critical parts and I am open to learning and updating my thinking.

When I was in that men's group for 2 years or more we did a foundations class at the parent church and I raised this question and the only answer I was given was "what could be more fair than a gift that is free to everyone and costs you nothing?" I thought a lot about that over the years and I don't have the answer other than to say, I don't know, I am not God and I don't design the system or systems by which man's path is directed to heaven or hell, but it seems like God could design a system with better than a 16% pass rate'. That may sound comical but I mean it in a purely functional sense.

I am no biblical scholar either... but didn't Jesus himself describe that place of torment in his parable about Lazarus and the rich man? Or in his sermon on the mount (the Beatitudes)?

God is love. But He forces his love on no one. We are always given a choice. To believe and to love -- or not. To me, I think we fool ourselves into thinking that our actions will have only pleasant consequences, and no unpleasant ones. Wonder who's doing the lulling?

Okay then. The given is that Jesus is the one and only god.

If that is the case, then Jesus himself in the bible (Mark 3 and Matt 12) that there is an unforgivable sin of denying the holy ghost.

If that is the case, then I think the OP is correct in assuming that most people will go to hell, because that's where the bible says you will go if you don't accept Jesus/holy ghost/God. This I think is pretty clear. See: http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

I would forward a call to Christians who believe otherwise to substantiate their claims with the bible, which is really all we have to go on in relation to the specific claim of Jesus as the one true god and hell, rather than just give speculation. I think this is really an open and shut case here. Either that, or the bible and bible interpretations contradict themselves, and if this is the case, how are we to know if any fundamental claim of Christianity is true or not?

"Why be so rude?"

I disagree that I am being rude.

"If that is the case, then I think the OP is correct in assuming that most people will go to hell..."

As a Christian, I don't share the assumption that "most" people will go to hell. Some will and some won't. For me, I'll just leave it at that -- if just to avoid Ben's ego from taking over, fancying he knows what really, only God should know.

"Whose definition? Can you define time and space?"

Death by semantics. You are welcome to google or wikipedia time and space.

But seeing as the author of the OP wants to stick to a given that Jesus is the one true god, makes this all mute. Though I would be happy to have a one on one debate with you regarding the existence of your god. :)

Ben - I agree Jesus never condemned or spoke ill of other religions. I also agree that when he spoke to Jews about the law not 'getting you to the finish line' he was specifically addressing the end of the old system (old testament) and the beginning of a new system (new testament). I agree with you up until this point.

From there I think we diverge because my feeling was that he specifically said his gospel applied to all human beings going forward. Maybe I need to pull out my red highlighted Jesus words Bible and read specifically with this in mind and see where it takes me. Also as I understand from my wife (Catholic) this might be the official position of the Catholic Church so possibly a Priest could specifically walk me through this.

But like I said, from my reading I thought I had already answered this question for myself in that the new system applied to all mankind.

The 'God is Love' is also the way I was raised to believe but that specifically clashes with my 16% number...how could God accept that only 16% of his beloved children spent eternity with him and the other 84% suffering in eternal hell? Why would he not change the system if he is all powerful? This especially clashes with the idea that the #1 predictor of your religion is where/how you were raised.

"as a WASP kid in America I am coming from a Christian perspective. From my view point/the way I was raised the Bible is the truth given to us by God, read it, obey it, ignore other religions because they are not truth."

If you've never read where the 'bible' came from/how it was constructed, you might find such reading interesting. There are many books written during the same time frame that were excluded, there is still, among biblical scholars, disagreement over the characterization of some of the people in the bible (especially in light of some of the books left out). It's fascinating stuff, really.

To me, it often comes down to this: religions, too often, can have a tendency to focus too much on their own 'rules and regulations' and their own particular interpretations instead of simply focusing on the teachings of Jesus (which, in my mind, were pretty straightforward and not that hard to understand). Further, I think that this focus on religion instead of god is where most, if not all, of the problems begin to surface.

"which is really all we have to go on in relation to the specific claim of Jesus as the one true god and hell"

Wrong. There are many other sources most notably through the early traditional gospels and even some of the gnostic texts found at Nag Hammadi (as stated several times before).

"As a Christian, I don't share the assumption that "most" people will go to hell. Some will and some won't. For me, I'll just leave it at that -- if just to avoid Ben's ego from taking over, fancying he knows what really, only God should know."

Ben, with all due respect, you have evaded my call to support claims using the bible. Could you be so kind as to support your belief that most people will not go to hell using the bible? Thanks.

Again, Jesus clearly states there is an unforgivable sin of denial of the holy ghost. You are welcome to look it up in the bible. If only Jesus/God knows who will go to hell, it seems odd to me that Jesus himself would mention--twice--in the bible that there is an unforgivable sin. Clearly most people in the world commit this sin. By default of calling yourself any other religion other than Christian, you deny the holy spirit. Then there are atheists, non believers, pagans, Buddhists, etc.

The bible never says that most people will go to hell. Jesus did teach about the immense difficulty of getting to heaven -- using the camel going through the eye of a needle in his parable about the rich. One needs to bear in mind Jesus was speaking in parable form. But even more importantly, one needs to focus on the how quickly Jesus added that with God, nothing is impossible!

To me, arguing whether some or most will end up in hell is completely pointless. Love and Christianity are all about moving forward, believing, helping each other out.

Edited by ben2world on 03/19/2012 12:59:14 MDT.