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The basic math behind Christianity...
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Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 14:42:51 MDT Print View

This a silly thread anyways I should stayed out of. There is nothing new or original in any mythology, there is nothing historical in any religion in any modern sense of the word. The over whelming population of human beings who have ever existed, do exist, and will exist, Do not share these beliefs. They are good compassionate people.

Family Guy
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 14:46:09 MDT Print View

I was kind of hoping to top the Carbon thread but...

I sense no hostility from anyone here and merely discussion. In fact, I think I have learned some things.

Now go see my post in the Granite Gear Snow Leopard thread. Now.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 14:51:06 MDT Print View

Brian:

One form of silliness is ignorance. Both Jesus and Buddha are historical figures. And the overwhelming population of human beings who have ever existed, do exist -- were and are believers of one religion or another.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 14:58:15 MDT Print View

"Both Jesus and Buddha are historical figures."
Im "ignorant" because I don't share your "beliefs"
"were and are believers of one religion or another."
but not yours.


sure
Im out

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 15:11:47 MDT Print View

Look them up, Brian. Don't be so lazy and dismissive. But if you don't care, then don't post.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 15:40:31 MDT Print View

"Brian. Don't be so lazy and dismissive. But if you don't care, then don't post."


I forgive you...

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mithras on 03/23/2012 15:43:08 MDT Print View

Love you back, Brian. :)

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: The basic math behind Christianity... on 03/24/2012 08:57:33 MDT Print View

This news just in: God has decided to save the whales, and we have to go.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/does-it-matter-whether-god-exists/?src=me&ref=general

Edited by Meander on 03/24/2012 08:59:25 MDT.

Christopher Mills
(Hiker816) - MLife

Locale: Denver
Re: Can this thread please just die already! on 03/24/2012 13:06:16 MDT Print View

"Can this thread please just die already!"

You know if it did die, it would just rise again three days from now.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
re: Re: Can this thread please just die already! on 03/24/2012 14:04:51 MDT Print View

@ Chris: Groan!!!

Just In Time
(ArcturusBear1)
Re: Resurrected... on 03/17/2015 00:33:17 MDT Print View

I've had some hard to explain experiences over the years. An out of body experience, precog dreams that happen tit for tat later in physical (one that dealt with very unusual circumstances), getting info during meditation that was later verified, had a tall E.T. visit me in the middle of the night, have seen UFO's, have had experiences with others that suggest other lives happen, etc, etc.

Not much surprises me anymore, but outer phenomena is not all that important to me. To me, the very heart of spirituality is completely about ethics and love. Everything else, is just a side note. Including all the involved belief systems.

While i'm not a Christian and not religious, i do consider myself a follower of Yeshua (Jesus). For lack of a better way to put it, i've come to learn that there is something out there you could call "guidance". Guidance doesn't care what religion you are or so much your specific beliefs except to the extent it influences your livingness of ethics, love, etc in relation to the rest of creation, including yourself.

Despite the dislike/disbelief of skeptics, an interesting feature of a percentage of NDE's, is for the person to receive info that later on gets verified in very hard to dismiss ways. Info that they couldn't have consciously known about. Someone on this thread said that they get nervous when others said that they have talked to Jesus. Well, NDE's are replete with Jesus communications and experiences from Christians, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, and occasionally folks from other religions.

Anyways, sometimes i get downloads or concepts from that "guidance" i talk about, or i get led to certain outer sources in a synchronistic way. One of the issues that this guidance has nudged me about, is the person, life, and pre life of Yeshua (Jesus), and his role in the grander scheme despite that i was raised in a non religious household and didn't have much interest in a specific religion.

This is what i've gradually pieced together. All is Consciousness in essence. Consciousness has always existed, but it's awareness of itself has not been constant. Before time and space were imagined, Consciousness was a single entity, all alone to itself.

This was both a very lonely and unfufilling state to be in. Consciousness sensed that there was so much more, so much potential within. So it hit on a plan to experiment. It in a sense moved within itself, and decided to spark off individualized, freewilled aspects of itself. These parts of self were created with the intention of exploring the whole of Consciousness and expanding the process of creating ever more unique, individual parts in same and to be Companions, Lovers with same. To some extent, Consciousness had to in a sense project these away in order to start this process. This was the seeming "separation" experience.

For Consciousness to imbue these parts of self with true "freewill", it had to allow these parts to choose or create that which was different than itself. Consciousness was/is many things, too vast a concept to fully comprehend, but a very strong part of it is Love, a very, very, very big, pure, and yet in some ways impersonal love. And a love that fully respected freewill.

Anyways, some of these parts of the larger Whole when given freewill, started to choose/create differently than Consciousness and the larger Whole which was still intune with same. These parts felt they could go it alone with better results. They were the original iconoclasts with separative tendencies.

At first, it wasn't a big deal. They still had some awareness of connection with the Whole and with the original, Creative Source/Force. But eventually, more joined their ranks, and things started to get a little messy and inharmonious in certain areas/focuses within Consciousness/reality.

Meanwhile, some of the other parts, decided to fully choose to be fully One with Consciousness. The very first individuated self that grew to full attunement with Source/Consciousness, was a spark we could call the Christ Spirit. The Christ Spirit was the first successful returner, and so became the first Co-Creator with Consciousness. Other Sparks were modeled after Consciousness. Some of these sparks were created with the intention of retrieving the "lost ones", the ones that chose to be cut off from the Whole and from Consciousness.

There was a lot of Love injected into these particular retrieving Sparks. Love was the main ingredient found in the "Christ Spark", and why it was the first to "return" voluntarily to Consciousness and to a full awareness of the Whole. Meanwhile, this Co-Creator spark was involved in co creating various realities. Eventually, the nonphysical patterns behind/within that of what we perceive as our physical Universe were laid down.

Some of the lost ones, became involved with their sibling's creation. The Co-Creator spark thought little of it at first, until they started to change the patterns from harmonious thought and reality, to increasingly more discordant and inharmonious, and out of tune with the grand symphony of the Whole.

Gradually, as this happened more and more, and the patterns changed more and more, the lost ones started to get stuck in their own distorted creations and manipulations of the Christ's. As they did this, it started to densify more and more. Their awareness started to shrink more and more. They gradually forgot they were cosmic beings, and were gradually becoming more and more "physical". Fear was experienced for the first time. Pain. Suffering in various ways and degrees.

Some of these now densified worlds attracted more of these lost ones than others did. One of those worlds, is the Earth. Other worlds, other systems, other dimensions, etc stayed more intune with Consciousness and with the Whole. Christ did not like seeing it's siblings suffer, so it enacted on some plans of retrieval. At first, it manifested itself directly into this reality, projecting an thought form like that of the physically enmeshed natives.

This didn't work so well as it had hoped. So, it decided to get involved in the direct incarnational process here. Be born of a woman, die, repeat, etc. So it did that with the intention of eventually providing a perfect pattern to humans, an example of the way off the Hamster wheel. It lived many lives as a spiritual teacher, leader and wayshower type, but some were a bit imbalanced, a bit selfish, a bit zealous, etc This process culminated in it's lifetime as Yeshua, when a man, a personality so emptied itself of little, selfish self and filled up with original Consciousness and with Love, that it became an expression of Consciousness's personality within the Earth. Fully at One with the Creator, and able to manipulate all data streams at will, provided it was in line with the will of the Creative Forces.

It's important to note, that a number of other Sparks (even before the manifestation of the physical Earth) have since done with the Christ Spark did. They have fully rejoined with Consciousness and with the Whole through freewill choice and right livingness (like attracts and begets like). They too have become Co-Creators of other Universes and realities. Yes, there are other God like Beings beyond the boundaries of this reality, and we too may eventually grow into these roles.

Basically, it's one big, ever expanding, creative Art project or musical ensemble of Co-Creating and individualizing.. Each individuated self, is trying to grow to that at One-ment with Consciousness and the Whole. The primary way through this, in any world, in any system, in any reality, relates to that universal, pure unconditional Love.

This is the true meaning of "I am the way, the light, the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me". Yeshua, was a personification and pure channel of Love--he was Love even in the beginning, and he was saying that to achieve what he achieved, we must choose and live like he did. Being kind of the Teacher of teachers, and Guide of guides, he also over sees and continually helps with this process, there are more than one meaning at the same time.

Other teachers came relatively close. Buddha came close, Krishna, etc. Some other teachers in the past, Thoth, Enoch, Melchizedek, etc were expressions or aspects of this larger Christ Spirit. Some were inspired by same directly or indirectly. This Spirit has ever played a "guidance" role here, trying to unstick the lost/stuck ones that for whatever reason, congregated at this and certain other worlds and systems.

Besides having had guidance about Yeshua and his larger Spirit, i've also have had experiences with him. While i've experienced other Light Beings, there is something quite intense about him. All Light Beings, all higher guides, all true helpers have the utmost respect and love for him and his constant service in his various forms human and non human, and especially in his role as Yeshua. He has been to many worlds, in many forms within his Co-Creation.

However, he most definitely does not want people to get hung up on specific beliefs systems and religions. He is only interested in fostering greater unity, positivity, and higher ethics. He and many Light beings will tell you, that the best religion or belief system, is that which brings you closest to original Consciousness/Source and to the Whole.

So, you don't necessarily need to believe in him or any of the above specifics. It's also very important to know that this a potential within every single Being in every part of the Universe physical and nonphysical. We are parts of Source, and while we are not the Whole of ourselves, like the drop of the water that merges with the Ocean, we can have the awareness, power of the Whole. We all can become like him, and we are all at various different stages in our growth towards this. Some could be said to be "young souls", some middle souls, and some old souls, judged by how they have consistently used their freewill in relation to the First Cause/Source and rest of Creation.

Many worlds and intelligent beings, are much closer to this collectively than are humans. We are considered a rather primitive and stuck group in a collective sense, with a lot to learn/remember. There have been various interventions at various times from some of the more aware and positive groups out there that indirectly work for Christ, but not necessarily in a direct sense (he is not giving them "orders" per se). In various religions, some of these non human beings, some with physical like attributes and others without, have been referred to as "Angels".

There are also negative groups involved with humanity, and have been a long time. The consistent collective negativity of humanity has attracted other wayward groups--some of which are much more collectively lacking in Light than us.

Consciousness did not create evil, but allowed same to evolve as to respect freewill and that process. The majority of Consciousness and of the Whole, is in relative harmony with same. The physical here and these human bodies, well it's so hard to be a purely loving and spiritual person while connected to same, because this physical world is an externalization, a manifestation of this collective shadow/rejection of Oneness and harmony with the Whole and with the original nature of Consciousness. Hence the seeming continuing battle between the flesh and Spirit here. Hence why so many humans suffer so much. Suffering is both a natural consequence of living outside of Consciousnesses nature, and the teacher that reorients back to same. We don't need to suffer, but we will until we change within.

However, it's all essentially working itself out through innate laws that are part of reality and of Consciousness itself. Such as "like attracts and begets like". Most, eventually realize that the better course of action and wisdom is, to reorient self back to harmony with the Whole and with the original Consciousness. Why, because non reality, separation, etc leads to suffering. How couldn't it when we all come from the same Source which is Love, positivity, ethics, and the highest combo of Mother/Father we could ever imagine? To try to go outside of reality and our Source nature just can't and doesn't work well in the long term.

Anyways, none of all the above as far as specific beliefs and concepts go is that important, but the important part is the part about ethics, love, positivity. Eventually, the more you live this within and express it, the more your perception opens up. Edgar Cayce's guidance use to say that there was no one more psychic than Jesus. It's because Love expands, clarifies, balances, and strengthens perception.

In my experience and own life, i have noticed that this is very true. When i was a much more selfish person, my perceptions were a lot more narrow and limited and non constructive.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Resurrected... on 03/17/2015 11:13:12 MDT Print View

O_o

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Math on 03/17/2015 12:30:06 MDT Print View

I identify with the OP as I grew up in the church, was confirmed, went to church camp, prayed, etc. I also had a Chemist father who looks at the world through the lens of a scientist, who told me from day one not to take all or most of the Bible literally.

One day I decided that it was time for me to analyze the basis of my belief and the Bible being the one true document which describes our relationship with God. I soon self-identified as an agnostic after that. One of the things that didn't pass the sniff test for me was a position made by some churches that all I had to do was accept Jesus as my savior and I was guaranteed a ticket to heaven. I realize this isn't the position of all churches but it's true for some.

There very well may be a supreme being or force in the universe, but for me, wilderness is my church, the creek is the choir, and the birds are my preacher. There is no other environment which makes me feel as connected to the rest of the world and universe as I do when I'm sitting in the woods and listening to what it has to say.

I'm created from atoms and star dust. Hopefully my wife will respect my final wishes and see to it that my ashes are returned to the ground or a river, with hopes that they'll somehow contribute to life here on earth in the future.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 03/17/2015 12:39:03 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
My Maths on 03/17/2015 13:54:00 MDT Print View

I don't think any of it ever really passed the sniff test for me.

My father was a research scientist, my mother a history major. I was raised in a household without religion but strong on ethics and manners and a deep seated belief in helping others. Carl Sagan's Cosmos and social activism were more of a source of conversation and wonder and inspiration in my childhood than any religious doctrine.

I used to put myself in the agnostic camp but my perspective now is one of flat out atheism.

I have never thought that god or metaphysical explanations solve any existential problems for me. In my life, the concept of god or metaphysical happenings create more existential problems than they solve.

I'm fully comfortable with the fact that there are certain things we may never know, things that science will never explain (i.e. the origins of the universe, etc.). Every question will simply lead to more questions. And that's fine, I don't need to believe I know everything. I like mystery. Using god as the final, debate-ending answer to every question we ask kills that mystery. And reason.

I have had two near death experiences in my life. Both had a profound effect on me. Both resulted in a complete absence of consciousness coupled with a complete loss of time and self. I have no reason to believe that if I hadn't regained consciousness or been resuscitated that anything would have changed. I have no reason to believe death is any different. Life goes on for everything and everyone else. But it's lights out for Craig Wisner. Bye-bye world, it was good while it lasted.

All this said, this is still a universe of absolute wonder to me. I think even more than if I used magic to explain things. I just happen to believe that all of the insane complexity falls within the realm of science and physical reality. I just read a paper on how electromagnetic fields screw with the navigation ability of birds. Imagine how much we don't know that still comes down to simple biology and physics? Much of it may be beyond what we will ever perceive, but that doesn't mean the answer is magic.

As for disposal of my body: Getting run through a wood chipper off the back of a boat in the great Pacific would be cool. Let the barracuda devour me.

Perhaps I presume too much, but I'm guessing Justin is about to explain that my heart is hard and my mind is closed and it all has something to do with my unbalanced masculinity.

Edited by xnomanx on 03/17/2015 13:55:53 MDT.

Just In Time
(ArcturusBear1)
Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 14:18:01 MDT Print View

Craig, why the need for a personal pot shot? And yes, you presumed over much. The only thing i was going to say, is that many people who have completely physically died, even for many minutes, have had experiences. Certainly not all do, but a high enough percentage do to warrant basic consideration and questioning.

If you haven't had experiences with the nonphysical yourself, well i can completely understand your views. It's pretty logical from that perspective. However, many people have had various different experiences, and hence believe differently based on those experiences. Also logical. Imagine that, relativity.

One shouldn't try to change their beliefs based on the experiences or dogmas of others, but what is pragmatic is to realize that if so many have had experiences that contradict your own, that it might be wise to keep an open mind about it all.

If you're not open and don't question your beliefs and perceptions ever, then even if some experience does come around or guidance tries to get a message through or what ever, you just won't perceive it. Concrete beliefs/belief systems influences perception, and perception influences EVERYTHING.

When i had some of my experiences, i did not have any concrete beliefs one way or another about the phenomena.

Just In Time
(ArcturusBear1)
Re: Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 14:25:15 MDT Print View

In any case, like i said, none of these beliefs are all that important anyways, if you got the ethics, love, kindness, etc part down. That's the most important part. My perception is Craig, that these are important to you and you try to live them.

When we fully die, we'll either find out we were correct or not about the specific belief parts.

But i think the majority of us seek happiness in the here and now. I think that a slight majority know on some level that living positively and ethically in relation to others fosters happiness and contentment. I think a slight majority know that negativity does not foster happiness and contentment.

There have even been scientific studies and research that indicate positive social interaction has positive physical, emotional, and mental effects on people. This is a good start for anyone.

Edited by ArcturusBear1 on 03/17/2015 14:28:36 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 14:39:28 MDT Print View

"….that it might be wise to keep an open mind about it all.

If you're not open and don't question your beliefs and perceptions ever, then even if some experience does come around or guidance tries to get a message through or what ever, you just won't perceive it. Concrete beliefs/belief systems influences perception, and perception influences EVERYTHING."


I rest my case.
As I assumed...I don't see it like you do so it naturally follows that I am the one that would be wise to open my mind.

I could equally declare that you have developed a concrete belief system about the nature of existence and it influences your perception of everything. Perhaps you see things that are not there because you hold a belief that they are?
It goes both ways.

That's why in my post above I don't make any judgements about what others believe. I speak for myself.

Edited by xnomanx on 03/17/2015 14:51:37 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 15:01:35 MDT Print View

Well it's 3/17 so it's only right that I quote The Brothers McMullen, "Just because we don't believe in God, doesn't mean we can't be good Catholics."

Or something along those lines.

"I used to put myself in the agnostic camp but my perspective now is one of flat out atheism."

I don't think the answer is "knowable" at this time. Pondering our creation, perhaps it was spontaneous, perhaps an asteroid hit a planet with microorganisms on it and the contaminated meteorites achieved escape velocity and later hit earth, maybe scientists from a now deceased civilization millions of years ago sent a frozen ball of much which had the blue prints for life to earth, and maybe all the answers we've been seeking were answered over the many episodes of Mork and Mindy. It's entirely possible that the source of our creation is eerily similar to one or many religions.

I'm not going to pretend to know. Looking for the truth and haven't found it yet.

"Getting run through a wood chipper off the back of a boat in the great Pacific would be cool. Let the barracuda devour me."

It's unlikely I'll read anything half that awesome for the remainder of this week.

Changing Article IV (body disposal) of my will in three.... two... (cut and paste) done!

Edited by IDBLOOM on 03/17/2015 15:04:04 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 15:36:31 MDT Print View

Totally agree with you that the answer isn't necessarily "knowable". But here is where we get into semantics and the really deep stuff. Explaining why I lean more towards atheism as opposed to agnosticism likely requires more time and energy than I could spend here….and even then, I'm not sure I could adequately explain myself. The internet is a clumsy place for this stuff.

Part of the conversation immediately diverges into the idea of what is even "knowable" in the first place. Our perception is highly subjective and imperfect. Our tools for measuring and observing are limited. Human knowledge has come a long way…to think only centuries ago we didn't understand germs…and we'll take this knowledge even further given time, but I'm not a believer that many of the bigger answers we seek are necessarily knowable in the first place. My bet is that if humans still even exist millennia from now, we'll either be back to the stone age and reinventing all of our knowledge or we'll have pushed out beyond our current boundaries only to be confronted by a never-ending string of new questions about origin….whether that's our origin on earth, in our galaxy, in our universe, in existence at large….on and on.

But its all good, because I can function perfectly in this world without knowing the scientific answer to where we come from. The questions and implications surrounding a conscious creator entity of some sort create far more problems for me than scientific uncertainty about deep origins.

Just In Time
(ArcturusBear1)
Re: Re: Re: Re: My Maths on 03/17/2015 16:12:45 MDT Print View

Craig, difference is that this wasn't directed to you in a personal sense, but i was speaking very generally, and broadly about the issue of belief vs perception and i did not negatively attack you whatsoever as you presumed i would.

It doesn't matter *what* you apply it to. Even in science. If as a scientist you've invested a lot of time, energy, etc, into a particular theory or hypothesis, say Big Bang theory, and it starts to become part of your "belief system", then when evidence starts to trickle in that contradicts it, depending how strong or not your beliefs in relation to degree of open mindedness, you may not "see" the evidence or see it as valid. In this example, there are many scientists around the world right now, that strongly disagree with the Big Bang Theory, but they feel that the system is locked into belief systems to maintain status quo.

This is constantly happening in every area of our life with our beliefs to all humans. We're all subjective to some degree. Beliefs strongly influence perception. There is no such thing as a completely objective human free of perceptual error or the belief effect on perceptions. The best we can do, is try to remain open minded but skeptical. That way if our current beliefs are off, we are open to having them converted to more correct ones. Really, it's the scientific approach. Where science cannot yet prove or disprove things, we have to rely more on our own personal experiences.


And NO, i've been both an atheist and agnostic. For awhile, i was very into science and was a "materialist", until i started to have experiences that indicated that mainstream scientific paradigms still had a lot to figure out.

Same with former atheists like Howard Storm, whom after their experiences, changed their beliefs. Storm was a hard core atheist until his NDE. Now he is a Christian Pastor, but sees the process of spiritual growth as bigger than religion.