Tom:

I don't care if versions 4, 5, 6 or 999 come out -- because all the reasons why we choose not to follow versions 1,2 or 3 will still be there...

Edited by ben2world on 03/20/2012 18:46:40 MDT.

"Word on the street is that it will be released alongside the iPad 6."

Touch-based! Now that's a religion I can get into.....

"And on American values and the Bible, the idea that God is love and love only is much more American than it is Biblical, where God is described as justice (ie, punishment for the guilty), vengeance, righteousness, as well as mercy and love. IOW, not a unidimensional "Love, love, love" per the Beatles."

This. To say God is only love, therefore, all will enter heaven is just not biblical.

Ryan

@ Ryan: "This. To say God is only love, therefore, all will enter heaven is just not biblical."

As I read it, yes.

I don't know if I would use the term "American' to denote that notion that God is just lovie touchie feely and nothing else... I think it's more the folks who are overly "me centered", those who see the universe, including God, revolving around them. Ego crosses national boundaries (stating the obvious).

Edited by ben2world on 03/20/2012 20:26:25 MDT.

Mr. Olsen,

Very well put...I couldn't have put it better.

Todd

"I don't care if versions 4, 5, 6 or 999 come out -- because all the reasons why we choose not to follow versions 1,2 or 3 will still be there..."

Are you saying man is basically incorrigible? How depressing. :(

"Tom Kirchner and I are equally confident that the other will rot in hell. And we interact pretty well, actually."

+1 But what Ben has heretofore been unaware of is that I actually look forward to it. I'd be bored stiff up in Heaven and, in any case, ultimately I'd probably run afoul of the authorities and be unceremoniously thrown into the next elevator going down. So, Ben, if I'm right you're going to be stuck with me for eternity. Mwahahahahahaha........ :=)

"Are you saying man is basically incorrigible? How depressing. :("

I don't see it that way. Hell exists. But so does heaven! Tick, tick, tick... 70+ and counting... :)

"...ultimately I'd probably run afoul of the authorities and be unceremoniously thrown into the next elevator going down"


Tom:

Lucifer himself was hurled down. What makes you think you get to ride in an elevator? Mwahahahaha...

"Tick, tick, tick... 70+ and counting..."

All that means is that I get 20 years of peace before you join me. :=)

"Lucifer himself was hurled down. What makes you think you get to ride in an elevator?"

They didn't have elevators back in the day. The infrastructure has undergone major upgrades in the last 3000 years.

Sorry I've missed so much of a very interesting debate, had to do other things.

Ty Ty the 16/84 math seems to be the most important question so I'll give you my take on it and than recommend a short, readable book thats I think is the best answer to this question I've seen. Check out "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan. Should be at most Barnes & Nobles. Actually for you personally you could probably just drop in and read the chapter titled "What if God.."

His conclussion is more or less this - There are lots of things in the Bible that can make even a committed Christian uncomfortable. There are basically two possible responses to this
a. You can say "I could never love a God that would...(fill in the blank) and walk away from the faith
b. You can say "I don't know why God allowed this to happen but I know he's bigger, smarter and more loving than I am so I will trust him even though it doesn't make sense from a human perspective.

Ultimately Chan is argueing that we just can't know the mind of God. If I was writing the Bible I'd have left out some of the parts that make people uncomfortable. I don't know why they are there but I'm trusting they are there for a purpose. I always remember that the same God who created hell and allowed a number of lousy things to happen in my life also grew the tree and created the men who would put him on a cross.

I don't know...I've been to barbeques and picnics that looked like this.
Now granted, they didn't have tigers and koala bears to pet, but I was typically looking for the quickest out. There was usually someone there selling Mary Kay or Tupperware. Yawn.




Now Hieronymus Bosch knew how to paint a party. I'll be passing a bottle with Robert Johnson while he's playing some mean ol' slide.


Robert Johnson: Me and the Devil Blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7ZzfjRzZuk

Edited by xnomanx on 03/20/2012 21:13:56 MDT.

"BTW, who here believes in hell."

I had a cystoscopy today. I definitely believe in hell...... ;-)

>I had a cystoscopy today. I definitely believe in hell...... ;-)

Just be glad doctors don't have to use their finger for THAT too!

"Just be glad doctors don't have to use their finger for THAT too!"

My doc is an Apple fanboy - he used a new iPad. He said the new camera would show things best. I don't even want to know how the heck he got it in there......

At least the iPad has smooth edges...

Way too much information!!!

ameliorate sadness.
control the masses.
give false meaning to the meaningless.
etc.