Forum Index » Chaff » The basic math behind Christianity...


Display Avatars Sort By:
David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Understanding/Faith and a ski jump on 03/20/2012 09:54:07 MDT Print View

The percentages you post are your understanding, perhaps a common theological understanding among evangelicals in this country. This may not be the case, and the bible
sure doesn't list percentages. Everyone can grasp bits of truth, no one understands it
all.


"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known"
New International Version (©1984)

Often our culture is mixed together with truth and this blend gets in the way of sharing precious stuff with others.

I do appreciate how faith is not something easily used to prove something, and how it is unfair to use faith as a trump card in an argument.

Faith should not be discounted as a method to reach understanding. Sometimes knowledge
follows a faithful step.

Here is a little 4th grade girl utilizing faith to execute a ski jump.
Worth watching. My son loved this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtGRvP3ILg

Edited by oware on 03/20/2012 09:54:41 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Understanding/Faith and a ski jump on 03/20/2012 10:06:07 MDT Print View

Nicely said David.


I didn't witness the Resurrection of Jesus but others did. The only evidence is the personal accounts of what happened. I believe these to be true and hence, this supports my faith.

I didn't witness the Big Bang. Much of the supporting evidence is theoretical. I believe the evidence to be true and hence, this supports my faith.

The two are not incompatable nor are they ignorant (thanks Nigel).

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
"You must believe, boy..." on 03/20/2012 10:23:45 MDT Print View

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFntFdEGgws&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nigel Healy
(nigelhealy) - F

Locale: San Francisco bay area
Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 10:35:02 MDT Print View

Ty, you've made the assumption that maths applies and logic applies.

A couple of reasons why its not safe to assume. In the real world, all energy was created at the start of the universe and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is what drives a lot of the physics, which is based on maths, in the real world. There is an energy to mass conversion which was the start of the universe and there is often mass back to energy conversion such as in nuclear fusion inside our sun which keeps us warm and sustains all life. This conversion is running now inside your body, energy from the sun converted into hydrocarbons in plants which eventually converted to energy in the mitochondria in your cells, and so you have energy to type your reply. Easily proved this is true - stop feeding a human food and they die.

In the aspect of "soul" and "heaven" well apparently souls are created from nothing, but not apparently never destroyed. So completely different rules? So run with that thought.

Suppose "soul" is a unit plucked from a fixed-size blob of "soul-energy", that implies at some point there isn't enough soul-energy and humans must eventually be created without a soul. As a soul has no clear manifestation we can point to, we'd never know when god stopped making people with souls. Perhaps that's already happening now?

Next, suppose heaven has a fixed-size, at some point for 1 person to go into heaven, the soul of a previously dead human has to be expunged from heaven. Now as we struggle to know much about all the people in generations long-gone apart from the famous ones, even if you did go to heaven, you'd never know that someone you never knew ever existed in the real world had their soul destroyed by your entry. After all, heaven could have been constructed without view of 7B current population.

I think the Christians currently believe that there is an infinite supply of soul energy, heaven is infinitely large, all humans have souls, etc.

Also the maths needs to scale. There is highly likely in the real world that life exists on other planets and that some of them have intelligence comparable to higher to ourselves. So what did god do there? Did it give them souls or not? If apparently on our planet lower life forms, say the great apes, didn't get high enough in god's pecking order to be given souls, is it that heaven only takes the 1 species from 1 planet, or is it all intelligent life on multiple planets? So in heaven we'd be mixing with aliens? Within our species do all, even those with severe mental problems have souls? Also, rolling forward as our species evolves, do we at some point drift off the acceptable parameters if deserving a soul? Evolution is really happening in our species, it can be proved, for example there is a sense of smell of certain chemicals that some of us can smell, others can't smell and this is traceable in the children, so genetics is already proved.

So you either have to hold to logic which creates maths, and apply logic rigorously or just ignore everything and make it all up.

So, even though there is no physical method by which a soul can exist, no physical method by which God has directly influenced the real world, no physical method by which a heaven exists, nor the method of the conduit between these realities, no prove that any of this real, you've *assumed* that in our real world the logic contained in maths (e.g. 1+1 = 2) is still actually itself maintained in this alternate reality called Heaven. Heaven could be, and probably has to be as it has no conduit into our reality, run on entirely different fundamental rules, with different maths and different logic altogether.

So I challenge that maths can be applied.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 10:44:27 MDT Print View

"In the aspect of "soul" and "heaven" well apparently souls are created from nothing, but not apparently never destroyed. So completely different rules? So run with that thought."

Souls are material? What about the spirit (which is different from the soul according to the Gospels)?

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Is the Universe Expanding? on 03/20/2012 10:57:26 MDT Print View

Or shrinking? Was there a universe before this one? Is the "God Particle" really made up
of soul stuff? Lots of cool stuff to speculate over. Not so useful to war over.


"He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

New International Version (©1984) Micah 6:8

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Is the Universe Expanding? on 03/20/2012 11:02:07 MDT Print View

>Not so useful to war over.

Indeed. And history has proved that time and time again throughout the ages. What has been accomplished?

Nigel Healy
(nigelhealy) - F

Locale: San Francisco bay area
Re: Is the Universe Expanding? on 03/20/2012 11:08:09 MDT Print View

All very useful.

So what about a Christian who has a huge carbon footprint which destroys a family living on the poor fringes near sealevel? Very indirectly that is one human causing the suffering and death of another which is a sin and so is a reason to not get into heaven? Arguably if that is true then most people in the developed world are not going to heaven?

"To act justly and to love mercy" - justice requires an equality of all, and yet if you could look into the lives of all 7B you'd find most do not have justice. Mercy - again, many have no mercy, they are oppressed by leaders who are propped up by the West. The example of Iraq in the 80's, for example.

Back in the time of the gospels, it was very difficult to indirectly cause the suffering or others, it had to be much more direct as the population much smaller so effects were more local.

I noticed the story of Jesus, it was all very low carbon footprint.

So of the 7B population, the subset of those who are consuming locally produced food, living a sustainable lifestyle, who also happen to be Christian is what %?

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Hard questions on 03/20/2012 11:28:38 MDT Print View

"So of the 7B population, the subset of those who are consuming locally produced food, living a sustainable lifestyle, who also happen to be Christian is what %?"

So you want to ask the hard questions, eh? Couldn't I distract you by talking about
g a y marriage or doonsbury's latest strip? Then I wouldn't have to think about my own
faults.

Ty Ty
(TylerD)

Locale: SE US
Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 11:33:48 MDT Print View

Nigel - that is all a bunch of mumbo jumbo, no offense. I am not inventing math and applying it to religion, I am taking statements from a book that Christians believe specifically states how, who, and why you get into heaven or hell. The bible makes very specific statements repeatedly about heaven and hell and it repeatedly stresses Jesus and a belief in Jesus as the son of god and savior of mankind as a center point of going to heaven or hell.

A couple Christians posting in this thread have denied that the rules stated in the bible are as concrete as I am making them sound, fine. Others have said they believe the rules might apply differently to different religions, fine. Others have stated that they don't have all the answers and don't now, fine.

So now I want to hear from the Christians that agree with my assessment of what the bible says, then look at the 16%/84% calculation I presented and want to discuss that idea and how it meshes with their personal belief system. I know there are a whole lot of Christians out there that agree 100% with my reading assessment because a whole bunch of Christian denominations believe just that and state it openly. I think some of those Christians have posted in this thread but none of them have given me a direct answer to my 16%/84% calculation and how that sits with them.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 11:52:05 MDT Print View

"Back in the time of the gospels, it was very difficult to indirectly cause the suffering or others, it had to be much more direct as the population much smaller so effects were more local."

Yeah, you are right. We are all going to hell.

BTW, who here believes in hell.

J/K!!!!

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 11:53:59 MDT Print View

Is there beer in hell?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:02:02 MDT Print View

Of course there is beer. Light beer, unfortunately. In Heaven you get Scotch.

"Does evil exist?

One day, a professor of a university decided to defy his pupils. He asked: "did God create everything that exists?"

A student answered bravely,"yes he did."

"Everything?" asked the teacher.

"Yes, everything" was the answer of his student.

"In this case, God also created evil, correct? Because evil exists" said the teacher.

To that, the student had no answer and remained in silence. The teacher was delighted at the opportunity to prove that faith was only myth.

Suddenly, another student raised his hand and asked," May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course" was the answer.

The student asked: "Does cold exist?"

"Of course" replied the professor

The student said,"Actually, sir, cold does not exist. According to studies in Physics, cold is the total and complete absence of heat. An object can only be studied if it has and transmits energy and it is the heat of an object that transmits it's energy. Without heat, the objects are inert and incapable to react. But cold does not exist. We create the term COLD to explain the lack of heat."

"Do you believe in darkness?" continued the student.

"Of course" replied the professor.

"Again, you are wrong sir. Darkness is the total absence of light. You can study light and brightness, but not darkness. The prism of Nichols shows the variety of different colors in which the light can be decomposed according to the longitude of the waves. Darkness is the term we created to explain the total absence of light" continued the student.

And finally, the student asked: "And evil, sir, does evil exist? God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of God in people's hearts, it is the absence of love, humanity and faith. Love and faith are like heat and light. They exist. Their absence leads to evil."

Now it was the professor's turn to remain silent.

The name of the student was Albert Einstein."

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:06:42 MDT Print View

>Of course there is beer. Light beer, unfortunately.

Hmmmmm, well, it could be worse, I guess.


Nice Einstein story.

Nigel Healy
(nigelhealy) - F

Locale: San Francisco bay area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:08:44 MDT Print View

Devil. According to the bible it is not the absence of God, but a real thing.

Jesus in the desert was talking to the devil, not the absence of god. So the example above contradicts the Christian view of the devil.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:15:42 MDT Print View

The Devil was at first an angel. Once he fell, one could argue that the Devil became the absence of God, incarnate.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:19:21 MDT Print View

Interestingly, the Devil makes an appearance in other religions including Islam.

Nigel Healy
(nigelhealy) - F

Locale: San Francisco bay area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:35:18 MDT Print View

"The Devil was at first an angel. Once he fell, one could argue that the Devil became the absence of God, incarnate."

Right so that means once in heaven you can actually do bad things and be ejected from heaven.

So the % of Christians in heaven is those good enough to get there and stayed good enough to be allowed to stay?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:37:16 MDT Print View

"Right so that means once in heaven you can actually do bad things and be ejected from heaven."

Exactly. This is why the acceptance rate is so low and only 18% actually remain in Heaven.

Case closed.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The BIG assumption on 03/20/2012 12:42:01 MDT Print View

"So the % of Christians in heaven is those good enough to get there and stayed good enough to be allowed to stay?"

Or maybe WANT to stay? Apparently the Devil didn't.