Durability of the fabric on it's own seems fine, I have wiped out in ultralight windshirts on the bike with little or no tearing.

But what about seam taping/welding?

About 12 yrs ago Mtn Hardwear told me they couldn't make the Tempest line waterproof because the fabric would wear through over the seamtape.

I saw the effect in Millet GTX jackets which used a thin fabric in part of the sleeve with a heavier fabric on the top. Many of those were returned after a very short time because the seam tape was stiffer than the thin fabric, creating a 'knife edge' style fold concentrating extreme abrasion on a tiny line.

My wife has a lightweight Mtn Hw jacket that she rarely uses, yet you can see the same abrasion on the thin fabric where the double layer of welded fabric on the seam ends.

I see your reasons for picking the 8 oz rule, but feel that it pushes manufacturesr to make non-functional garments just to reach such an extreme weight target.
For example:
Shorter jackets
Shorter sleeves
Smaller hoods
Smaller, more finicky zippers

i own a helium, and i while it works fine, i would personally never buy an UL rain jacket which didnt have a no questions asked warranty ... or any other rain jacket for that matter ... buying from REI/MEC solves that issue as well

as witnessed by the blow out in that marmot jacket .... which is one of the reasons i went OR ... ive heard of issues with people and the marmot "lifetime" warranty, for the estimated lifetime of the product, not yr life

My conclusions are the same as Rogers's, that fabric quality is far more relevant than fabric weight when it comes to durability. That being said, it's impossible to compare a range of products, in a timely fashion, and assess durability in a comprehensive way all at the same time. I've retained a number of the jackets for my own long-term personal use, and plan on writing another article down the road discussing any failure points which may (or may not) occur.

New membrane technologies are discussed in detail in Will's report, linked to in the article. Once they're put to use with cutting edge lightweight fabrics and features I'll be most interested.

Going sub 8 oz may indeed be an excuse for gear makers to short features, but it is no longer an especially compelling one.

I would agree with Dave.

I have an OR Helium that is several years old. No pit zips and Gortex Paclite. It is sweat factory. Its saving grace is the durability it has provided. I have bush wacked several times and there is not a mark on the jacket. 8.4oz in XL.

Eric said:

"i would personally never buy an UL rain jacket which didnt have a no questions asked warranty ... or any other rain jacket for that matter ... buying from REI/MEC solves that issue as well. ... ive heard of issues with people "lifetime" warranty, for the estimated lifetime of the product, not yr life"

A lifetime warranty is perfectly acceptable. It makes no difference whether it is for the life of the product our your lifetime. Warranties only claim that the garment is free of manufacturing defects.
Wear and tear are not a manufacturing defect and therefore should not be warrantied, let alone abuse by the owner.

If people start claiming warranties for items that were simply worn out or abused, guess what happens? Manufacturers make them heavier!

REI's and other companies 'no questions asked' returns policy leads to some pretty horrible behaviour. Have you ever looked a the returns at the scratch and dent sale?

Shoes returned because 'they didn't fit', yet the sole is completely worn out. I got a roofrack from S&D that was clearly driven into a garage, yet returned. REI does not pay for these returns with their own money press, the other customers(you and I) do!

i disagree ... if you think you pay extra at REI because people abuse the system, shop somewhere else ... many people pay extra at REI because they know they can return it if it doesnt work the way they expect

OR has a no questions asked warranty ... and they make and sell one of the lighter rain jackets around, they are so confident in it and their service that they came out with a helium II

i dont seem to be paying anymore at EB than any other place, less in fact ... but the warranty on my downlight sweater is a trade in anytime if i have an issue

rain jackets can delaminate, it is not an uncommon problem , rather than blame the use good companies will take care of them so they keep on coming back and post their positive, rather than negative experiences online

Very nice to see these things getting an objective test, because they do often seem to get overlooked.

8 oz really doesn't force you to drop much useful, past using a 2.5 layer fabric. The Ozo is comfortably under and the fabric really isn't that light (77g/m2.).

Incidentally I just checked Haglofs' site to get the Ozo's fabric weight and it wasn't there. Seems like they might have canned it. Ugh.

"i disagree ... if you think you pay extra at REI because people abuse the system, shop somewhere else ... many people pay extra at REI because they know they can return it if it doesnt work the way they expect"

Eric,

Don't know if you have ever run a business, but I have. Here is a high level picture of how it works.

Most businesses are focused on product profit margins and margins on EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes). If expenses go up, then prices go up. Companies project what percentage of sales (in dollars) will be spent on warranty, goodwill, and after-warranty adjustments. So yes, if these expenses go up, so do the prices. Companies use warranties as a marketing tool... the sales department comes up with the ideas, and operations executes them.

The good news is that the strategy attracts customers, builds long-term customer loyalty, and generally improves profitability. But it is not a free ride... someone pays for the warranty, and that someone is every single customer -- it is built into the pricing structure. If too many customers abuse the warranty, or the company sells crappy products then it has to raise prices.

nick

with all due respect ... neither MEC nor REI (the most cited case of "abuses") seem to be going out of business ... they seem to be expanding in fact ... mec in fact is having the walmart effect in canada, when they went into bikes retailers complained that prices would drop, much of mec gear is both good quality and quite of the bit of the stuff they sell is cheaper than the MRSP of the manufacturer (dead bird items sold there for example)

people who go there tend to want that absolute guarantee that is provided ... maybe they pay extra, but thats their choice

we can all find better deals ... but the service may or may not be there

Hi David

> I have an OR Helium that is several years old. No pit zips and Gortex Paclite. It is sweat
> factory. Its saving grace is the durability it has provided. I have bush wacked several
> times and there is not a mark on the jacket. 8.4oz in XL.

No visible marks maybe, but try doing a pressure test on the shoulders. You might find that they make like a shower rose. The Gore-Tex membrane is very prone to getting small pin-holes from spikey leaves, and these leak badly. The holes tend to enlargen rather than heal.

How do I know this? You can guess. Gore did the testing for me at my request. Yes, it was a big heavy expensive Gore-Tex jacket with all the bells ands whistles too. Bygone era.

Cheers

nick

with all due respect ...




Yes, did you read the last paragraph in my post?

:)

Hi Roman,

That is certainly a sexy looking jacket you posted. Have you got one? If so, how do you find it?

Cheers,

Jeremy.

Marco, I think you misunderstand me. I would not wear dri-ducks and the like for bush whacking. what I was trying to say was that I would not wear any of the high end wpb jackets for bush whacking. Its a big waste. No jacket will work properly unless its kept clean and the dwr stays intact. As soon as a jacket gets dirty and the surface gets abraded it will wet out.
In that case it would seem that it would make sense to just buy some cheap jacket with durable fabric and expect it to fail, go with a non breathable, or just get wet.
So if you want a breathable jacket it stands to reason you probably want to baby it and not bush whack with it - in which case dri-ducks is a good choice.

"No visible marks maybe, but try doing a pressure test on the shoulders. You might find that they make like a shower rose. The Gore-Tex membrane is very prone to getting small pin-holes from spikey leaves, and these leak badly. The holes tend to enlargen rather than heal. "

Would an additional DWR treatment temporarily 'fill' any (very) small holes? I just looked at the jacket and can't see any pin holes, but doesn't mean they are not there.

Only one thing to do. Shower test.

Hi Jeremy.
My friend have got one. The jacket has athletic fit, compresses almost like windshell. And it feels like windshell when wearing (comparing to my Marmot paclite jacket). I think we will go through some adventure races this year, so we can test breathability and durability issues.

upd.: In fact - my friend already participated in couple of races in this jacket, and he says he was happy. Also once he spent a day indoors (i don't know why :))), and not standing still, and it was comfortable.

Edited by joarr on 03/15/2012 00:21:46 MDT.

i believe that the OR helium uses pertex shield ... perhaps theres an even older version that uses gortex?

if the OR fails the shower test, talk to OR, chances are theyll send you a new one ;)

Hi David

Additional DWR could help a bit, but only under good conditions. It certainly will not 'temporarily 'fill' any (very) small holes' as you put it. No way.

No, I could not see any of the holes before or after testing either. But I could sure see the sprays of water when low pressure was applied. Not sure whether a shower would do it, but try it with some tissures lining the jacket. They are very sensitive.

Cheers

During the last half year or so I've come across a good amount of opinions on windshirts. All of them telling you do get of the computer and go buy one - the best and most used piece of gear in the history of backpacking.

So I've got my eyes on one.

But I have a quite light well functioning Haglöfs Lim Ozone (~350g @ size M). If however, I wouldn't have it, I'd probably buy something like the Ozo (discontinued, buhuu). Now, why choose a 130g windshirt instead of a sub 200g WPB jacket? If you go out you'll most likely be in the sights of a raincloud anyway.

Please explain this to me.

Because it is cheap, more versatile and don't require regular DWR reproofing (do to the main job - cut wind)?

Oh, you'd need to take both in places with changable weather - certainly Nordic places/the UK! - so the windshirt is plain extra weight in that sense.

One thing is that they're notably more comfortable to wear than any waterproof shell until it rains properly. Also perhaps importantly they're both cheaper up front and lot more durable over time - many fewer ways to fail properly - than these very light shells.