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bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
MYOG 3.7 oz Fixed Length Trekking Poles on 03/11/2012 17:48:54 MDT Print View

I put these together with some golf shafts I found on ebay, tips from EMS and grips from a local tackle shop. They came in at 42 inches and 3.7 ounces. Cost with shipping, $45.00Leki Tipswicked light

Id like to try making some adjustable poles, like the GG LT4 or the Goat Poles. Anyone have the specs on the tubes used for these?

Jeremy Platt
(jeremy089786) - F

Locale: Sydney
Nice on 03/11/2012 19:19:21 MDT Print View

Nice Work!

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Nice on 03/11/2012 19:25:00 MDT Print View

Thanks Jeremy, my old poles weighed 12 oz, so for an hours work and $45 I got an easy 8 oz reduction.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: MYOG 3.7 oz Fixed Length Trekking Poles on 03/11/2012 21:22:56 MDT Print View

Great work, Bruce! Please keep us updated on the adjustable poles. I've been thinking about this for a long time but haven't had time to investigate.

Matthew Zion
(mzion) - F

Locale: Boulder, CO
Re: MYOG Trekking Poles on 03/11/2012 21:55:45 MDT Print View

Bruce,

Did you have to trim the poles at all to get them to fit into the tips? I F'd up my IT band running this winter and think I'd like to use some poles until I get strength back in my knees.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: Re: MYOG Trekking Poles on 03/11/2012 22:02:51 MDT Print View

Specs for pole diameters needed for tips and grips can be found in Jay Ham's MYOG article on MYOG golf shaft poles here...

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/make_your_own_gear_carbon_fiber_trekking_poles.html

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
No trimming necessary on 03/12/2012 05:08:38 MDT Print View

Matthew, no trimming was necessary. The tip diameter of the shafts is .370 and I used leki flex tips purchased at EMS. I coated the end of the shaft with epoxy and then used a 4 foot bar clamp to press the shaft into the tip. The shafts are only inserted into the tips about 1 3/4 inches. While tightening the clamp I could feel the shafts sliding into the tips a bit more with each turn. When the shafts stopped moving I stopped tightening. There was a very small, approximately 1/32 inch gap between the tip and the shaft when I was done but the epoxy filled that nicely. I used a Devlin epoxy with a 60 minute cure time.

Edited by brucetbo on 03/12/2012 05:16:26 MDT.

Matthew Or
(MattO) - F
awesome on 03/12/2012 06:02:42 MDT Print View

I was looking on ebay the other day for similar shafts to make some poles. I would also be interested to see about teh possibility of making adjustable ones.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: awesome on 03/12/2012 06:18:04 MDT Print View

I got my shafts from this seller http://www.ebay.com/itm/130662386820?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 he shipped them very quickly to.

Matthew Or
(MattO) - F
flex? on 03/12/2012 06:26:23 MDT Print View

What stiffness for the shafts did you get?

Sorry, just saw trhe link ... regular flex/stiffness.

Edited by MattO on 03/12/2012 06:54:18 MDT.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Adjustable Poles on 03/12/2012 06:37:03 MDT Print View

I will keep everyone posted on the adjustable poles. I'll probably do something similar to the GG LT4 or the Adjustable Ti-Goat poles. I did the fixed height poles in this thread more to get a feel for the materials than anything else. I would prefer adjustables even if it meant accepting a small weight penalty. I will say though, now that I see these completed Im very happy with the results. I'll be leaving my old 12 oz poles at home from now on. (or robbing their parts)

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: MYOG Trekking Poles on 03/12/2012 06:39:41 MDT Print View

If you use the high strength glue gun glue you can remove the tips to replace them.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: flex? on 03/12/2012 06:44:09 MDT Print View

I dont have a good answer for that one Matthew. Im not familiar enough with golf shafts to understand how stiffness is rated. I found the shafts cheap enough that I was willing to take a chance that the stiffness would be acceptable. The only info on the shafts is "grafalloy R Flex"

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: MYOG Trekking Poles on 03/12/2012 06:52:25 MDT Print View

Great tip Ken, thanks. I'll keep that in mind when I make my next set. Being able to replace the tips would be a great improvement.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Changes: 3.7 oz Fixed Length Trekking Poles on 03/13/2012 15:09:15 MDT Print View

I did a quick 6 mile hike today with the new trekking poles. I left the poles against a tree to do some off trail exploring, when I returned I had a hard time finding them. When I got home I used some orange paint and foil tape to make the poles a bit easier to see.Pole mod When I made the poles I used a chrome plated butt cap at the top of the handle. It didnt take much time in the bright sun for me to realize that this was a bad idea. Hot metal, burnt thumbs! I replaced the butt caps with corks that I had laying around in the shop.cork mod

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/05/2013 22:43:50 MST Print View

Here's an idea for "adjustable" fixed-length trekking poles: Use a long golf driver shaft (46"-47" available) and a long (9"-14" available) fishing pole grip. When you need a long pole you grip higher up, when you need a short pole you grip lower down. Long straps can be added too, so you don't have to rely only on your ability to grip.

Golf shafts are available from numerous sources on the Internet. For trekking poles I would order stiff or extra-stiff. Dallas Golf (http://www.dallasgolf.com/) has great prices, but so do many others. You can spend as little as $12 per new shaft, or as much as $200.

Tips can be found at numerous sources also. Even Amazon has a number of inexpensive replacement tips.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
MYOG poles on 01/06/2013 20:16:18 MST Print View

David and others,
Re: http://www.dallasgolf.com/c-23-shafts.aspx?section=35-25-&SearchTerm=&sortBy=relevance&pageSize=60

Besides written inquiries, is there a way to know which if any shafts are not tapered; that is, have a constant diameter. That would be important to know if wishing to cut them and insert ferrules in order to make a mid pole or a trekking pole that separates and folds up to a shorter length.

Thanks.

Edited by scfhome on 01/06/2013 20:16:59 MST.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: MYOG poles on 01/07/2013 09:26:09 MST Print View

I don't believe there are any untapered golf shafts. As far as I know, they all have 0.6" O.D. at the handles, and the tips are either .335", .350" or .370". However, the 0.6" O.D. usually extends about 1/2 way down the shaft, so if you're making a slip joint you might be able to locate it near the middle.

For untapered you'll probably need to go with straight tubes from a different kind of source instead of golf shafts.

There are dozens of CF tube sources. Here are a few:

dragonplate.com
www.rockwestcomposites.com
www.clearwatercomposites.com

I would go with woven, braided, wrapped or wound tubes. Straight "pull-truded" and/or unidirectional tubes tend to split lengthwise when over loaded.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
carbon tube on 01/07/2013 22:25:47 MST Print View

David,
Thanks for links and info.

Too bad the golf shafts are all tapered. Don't see how a segmented folding pole could be made very well from the tapered tubes.

Thanks also for the links. The Rockwest link has been often posted here, but the prices are quite high. Had not seen the Clearwater link. The prices are better, but I wonder if they make $ sense if the Italian Gabel Superlite carbon poles are still available from Costco.

If one is looking for tube for mid poles, the same question arises when the Ruta Locura poles are available in the $50-$60 range.

Very much agree regarding pultruded carbon tubes. Working on a CF pack frame, there were repeated breaks with pultruded rod. Finally found a .248" wrapped fiberglass tube that fit tightly over a pultruded carbon rod, both from Goodwinds, that seem so far to have solved the problem. This approach might work with larger diameter pultruded tube, or maybe I just got lucky.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: carbon tube on 01/08/2013 08:49:08 MST Print View

"If one is looking for tube for mid poles, the same question arises when the Ruta Locura poles are available in the $50-$60 range".

Samuel,

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you clarify, please? Thanks.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
carbon tube on 01/08/2013 18:38:14 MST Print View

I guess there is still some life left in this old thread. I've had more pressing matters to deal with so I havent given much thought to the adjustable poles. After researching suppliers I wonder if MYOG makes sense for this project. I havent found materials at a cost thats substantially lower than what I would pay for the LT 4 or Ti Goat poles and then there is shipping... The fixed length poles in this thread are adequate for now, though I admit they are uncomfortably short when walking even moderately steep terrain. Hopefully I can get to the adjustables over the winter. Any more sources and/or suggestions are welcome. Have fun out there.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: carbon tube on 01/08/2013 19:29:01 MST Print View

Standard driver shafts are available in 46" and 47" lengths for $12-$30 and up. There are even some 50" driver shafts available, but they are very pricey (like $200 each). Replaceable tips add about 1".

To go longer you could buy CF tubing with 1/2" I.D. and 5/8" O.D., cut two pieces of the length you want to add, splice the pieces on top of the shafts with an internal brace of 1/2" O.D. aluminum or CF tubing, and cover the splice with your grip. Golf driver shafts have handles that are 0.6" O.D.(5/8" = 0.625") and I.D. a hair over 1/2", so it should work.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: carbon tube on 01/08/2013 19:50:09 MST Print View

David Thanks for the info. Longer fixed length poles should be easy enough but I think if I were to build another set I'd go with adjustables. When I pitch my tarp I dont like having to search for sticks or trees to tie off to. Adjustable poles give me a lot of pitching options. Back when I originally posted this I had found some carbon tubing that I think would have worked. Pretty sure it was Rockwest that had it, but the cost was just to high. Hopefully when Im ready to start a new project I'll be able to find something that works.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
carbon trekking pole tube on 01/09/2013 02:02:05 MST Print View

"Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you clarify, please?"

Rusty,
I was thinking that the Gabel Super Lite carbon trekking poles might still be available cheap from Costco, but apparently not. The do have Yukon Charlies that are part carbon for $50, but no idea what they weigh. There are also the Fizan carbon poles that could be shopped for a low price.

The point being that if a finished carbon pole were available for around $50-75 a pair, it might make more sense to buy them instead of MYOG, when the cost of the raw carbon tube on the websites noted by David G. is so expensive.

Even though it appears more difficult to find a bargain than it was a year or so ago, I would still be a little leery about buying the raw carbon tube. Looking at the websites posted by David G, the 1/2" to 3/4" diameter raw carbon tube that is "wrapped," "braided," or "rolled," as opposed to pultruded, is quite expensive, and none of it appears from the sellers' descriptions to be all filament wound (like some smaller diameter arrow shafts are - look at Roger Caffin's posts about carbon filament winding machines). You'll not know for sure how strong it is until it breaks. If you buy the finished trekking (or tent) pole for less money, and it breaks, you might be able to obtain a refund or replacement. I'd want to know a lot more about the more expensive raw tube before buying it, like maybe an analysis and recommendation from an expert. I can buy arrow shafts, cut off short lengths and break test them; but in terms of both safety and expense, I'm not up to break testing a tube around the diameter of a trekking pole. From the most recent posts, I think the OP may have some of these concerns, also.

If I were determined to make my own carbon trekking or shelter pole, I might want to wait until the end of ski season, and look at sales for carbon ski poles, especially the longer X-C ski touring poles, to try to find something light and with enough untapered length to cut up to make sections that could be ferruled together to make a pole that breaks down and folds up like the new Black Diamond ones do.

Given the obvious need for strength in a ski touring pole, I would be hoping that the ski poles would be a variety of carbon that is not pultruded. The sale price would have to be low enough to justify a gamble on this. The list prices are all over the walk and run from under $30 for a pair of poles up into the several hundreds. I have no idea what one might be able to find in carbon in ski country in the spring, but have found ver light high tempered aluminum alloy tube very cheap this way to use for making camp chairs.

I've also noted that some of the ski poles being sold now either telescope or break down as trekking poles do, and can be readily converted to hiking poles by changing to a smaller basket. I've seen mostly aluminum alloy ones, but there are carbon ones out there also.

Hope that is a little clearer.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/09/2013 23:06:41 MST Print View

Just fabricated a new set of trekking poles from 46" (117 cm) golf driver shafts, 6" EVA foam grips, and tire stud tips. With no straps, weight = 3.0 oz each.

Also fabricated a pair of "adjustable" trekking poles with long 13" grips as suggested in one of my prior posts, with Wilcor replacement tips (basket-compatible) Weight = 3.9 oz each.

Also fabricated some strap adapters with 1/2" round aluminum bar plugs for the pole tops, steel screws and to hold the straps. Used some long straps I had laying around. Weight = 5.4 oz each. Have some 1/2" round Delrin bar and titanium screws on order. Will update with new weights after they arrive.

Also, I fabricated one strap adapter with a stud and nut, and the other with a threaded hole and screw. The stud is 1/4" x 20 threads per inch, so it works as a camera mount. Plus, the poles can be screwed together at the handles so the double pole can be used as an avalanche/crevasse probe.

Cost for "adjustable" poles: driver shafts from Dallas Golf $18 per pair, Wilcor replacement tips from Amazon $1.95 per pair, 13" EVA foam grips from Mud Hole $12.29 per pair, straps ???. Grand total for pair of "adjustable" poles = $32.24.

Just for fun I threw on a pair of heat-shrink "Shaft Skinz" with a green flame pattern. Adds a couple of grams per pole.

Finally, took an old 6' CF telescoping fishing pole I had in my equipment box and removed the handle and intermediate line loops. It fits perfectly onto the Wilcor tips and results in a 10' Tenkara fly fishing pole. Weight of fishing pole = 1.1 oz.

Pictures show poles with Black Diamond Z-pole replacement tips with small integrated baskets. Same weight.
"Adjustable" fixed length trekking polesGreen flame Shaft Skinz

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 06:04:02 MST Print View

Great info here David. 3 ounces! That's fantastic, and at a great price. The strap adapter/camera mount/crevasse probe idea is very clever also.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 08:51:20 MST Print View

Thanks, Samuel. Makes sense.

And David. Excellent job! Post more pics if you have time. I have pondered for a long time how to make my own. Problem is, I want them adjustable so I can change the height of my shelter to match weather conditions. Still, I love seeing the ingenuity of others. Inspires me.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: carbon trekking pole tube on 01/10/2013 08:53:40 MST Print View

"If I were determined to make my own carbon trekking or shelter pole, I might want to wait until the end of ski season, and look at sales for carbon ski poles...."

Thrift stores are a great place to pick these up for just a few dollars.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 10:00:54 MST Print View

Thanks Rusty.

I call these poles "adjustable" fixed length poles. My idea as expressed in an earlier post is "Here's an idea for "adjustable" fixed-length trekking poles: Use a long golf driver shaft (46"-47" available) and a long (9"-14" available) fishing pole grip. When you need a long pole you grip higher up, when you need a short pole you grip lower down. Long straps can be added too, so you don't have to rely only on your ability to grip."

With the long grips, the effective length of these poles can be adjusted between 48" (122 cm) and 35" (89 cm), depending on where you grip and how you have the straps adjusted.

I use a tarp shelter which, depending on conditions, I pitch between 48" and 32" high. I use the poles in their upright position and run the ridge line cord through the strap. Adjusting the height and/or tautness of the pitch is a simple matter of adjusting the strap length.
Ridge line cord through strap

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 10:11:37 MST Print View

Thanks, David. I really like (& prefer) the simplicity of what you present. However, I'm using a Zpacks Hexamid where the pole goes inside. I also ride my trail bike to remote and not easily assessable trailheads. So, ideally, the poles need to collapse enough that when attached to my pack, they don't snag on overhanging trees while riding. Early on, I tried mounting fixed length poles to my bike but I couldn't figure out a way to do so without interfering with me or presenting a snagging hazard.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 10:33:41 MST Print View

Great idea David. Ive never used straps in the past, and have even cut them off mass produced poles that Ive owned. It never occurred to me that I could run my guy lines in this manner and adjust the straps to the desired height. Thanks.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 10:48:50 MST Print View

How long does your Hexamid pole need to be? You can make a pole jack of the appropriate length from a third golf shaft cut down and plugged with an adapter to screw onto the stud on one of the trekking poles.

What kind of bike do you ride? Did you try bungee cording the poles along the sides of the top frame tube?Poles strapped to bike

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 11:15:36 MST Print View

I adjust my trekking pole for the Hexamid to be in the neighborhood of 36"-42".

I should have clarified my "bike". It's actually a motorcycle...Suzuki DRZ 400S to be exact. If it were open roads, attaching them would be no problem. However, there's brush and overhanging trees.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Poles on 01/10/2013 11:26:54 MST Print View

Yep, sounds like you need adjustable poles.

J P
(jordo_99) - M

Locale: Midwest
Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/10/2013 12:33:11 MST Print View

David, do you do any touring? If so, do you use a backpack (I don't see rack mounts on the bike)? It seems to me that having the poles like that could potentially cause issues if you use a handlebar bag. Also potential for issues with tall rear/front panniers (my current rear panniers would be very unlikely to work with that setup.

A side note, I use velcro to attach spare spokes and a folding aluminum tarp pole (for a 1/2 pyramid) and it works great...I'd imagine that bungies, while they function just fine, aren't as good as velcro.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/10/2013 13:42:30 MST Print View

JP,

Yes, I do some touring (I guess the rack mounts don't show in the photo, but they are there). Biked through England and Ireland a few years back. I don't use a handlebar bag, I use two low-slung front panniers. My rear panniers also fit low enough that the poles would not interfere. Usually I put my sleeping bag on top of the rear rack, but the poles would interfere with that. Maybe I could attach the sleeping bag to the poles; haven't tried it.

You're right about the Velcro. Lighter and more secure.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/10/2013 19:32:23 MST Print View

So....I'm thinking of bridging from MYOG to MGFOP (Make Gear For Other People) on these trekking poles, and adding them to my line of cottage industry products. Would $70 sound like a reasonable price?

Hope I'm not violating any BPL protocols by asking.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 07:57:09 MST Print View

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. The comparable Gossamer Gear poles cost $110 and weigh only a bit less and the Ruta Locura poles cost $100 and weigh a bit more. Then consider that both are often out of stock and $70 seems like a real bargain.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 09:12:27 MST Print View

Thanks Bruce. Do you know if there is a permissible/appropriate way to announce to the BPL community that I'm opening a cottage business?

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 10:59:05 MST Print View

Seems reasonable to me as well.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 11:38:41 MST Print View

Thanks Rusty.

bruce thibeault
(brucetbo) - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 11:56:43 MST Print View

David - if you want to post a link to your site the "on the web" forum would probably be the most appropriate place to do so. You should also be able to make a general announcement in the "Gear" and "Gear Deals" forums without upsetting anyone. Of course anything goes in "chaff"

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/15/2013 12:21:34 MST Print View

Cool. Thank you very much again Bruce.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/24/2013 09:46:01 MST Print View

Adapted a new Tenkara fishing pole to my trekking poles, resulting in an 11' fishing pole. As an added feature, the Tenkara pole fits inside one of the trekking poles for storage.tenkara in trekking poleassembled fishing pole

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Presence
Re: Re: Re: Adjustable Pole for cycle-camping on 01/24/2013 15:54:09 MST Print View

Nice! Now if one of you guys would just figure out a light and inexpensive adjustable pole, I'd be happier than pig in p00p!
:-)

EDIT: Note the way "p00p" is spelled. BPL wouldn't let me post cause it was "profanity" otherwise. Hahahaha.....

Edited by rustyb on 01/24/2013 15:56:45 MST.

J R
(JRinGeorgia) - F
follow-up on some carbon pole comments on 02/13/2013 11:58:57 MST Print View

Samuel wrote: "The [Costco] do have Yukon Charlies that are part carbon for $50, but no idea what they weigh."

I called Yukon Charlie and they weighed a pair for me, but they don't have an ounce/gram scale only pounds. On that these poles came in at "just under a pound" for a pair with baskets.

Samuel also wrote: "if a finished carbon pole were available for around $50-75 a pair, it might make more sense to buy them instead of MYOG"...Currently Sierra Trading Post has carbon Komperdells, 13.2oz for the pair, for $78 after 35% off through an e-mail offer that expires tomorrow 2/14, plus free ship if you bump the order to $100+. These poles are back-ordered to ship March 1.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
buying instead on 02/13/2013 20:05:40 MST Print View

J R,

One thing to watch is for the quality of the carbon. There is another pole thread on GEAR where the OP notes some "famous" carbon poles that sell for under $30 on Amazon. The even look nice, with rubber grip extensions; but when I looked at the Amazon reviews, right out of the box were comments about 6 of the poles breaking on one day hike.

Komperdel carbon is OK, but never heard of them being that light. Bought a STP pair a few years ago, and there have been issues with the twist-locks. Would never use them for a shelter where the length of the poles had to be adjusted with each pitch.

The Gabel pair I have were under $50 at Costco when they sold them that cheap, and so far have no issues with the twist-locks. A golf pro put short sections of golf grips under the pole grips for choking, that brought them up to over 7 oz each.

Also on GEAR, it has just been said that the LT4s will be available again from GG in a month or so. Nice, but not inclined to spend $175 to save a couple oz. on the one Gabel that I use. Then again, I've never had the opportunity to enjoy the incredible lightness of the LT4s that people rave about. Maybe it's better not knowing.