It's been a while since I got mine, but when I ordered it Dan said that the dye was basically painted onto the Dyneema fabric, and does on occasion start flaking off. He might have found a new dye since then, but it's possible that the only thing on his packs that isn't durable is the dye.

:)
It makes the packs look a lot older than they really are though, which can be a fringe benefit, because the sorts of people who would steal packs generally won't steal the ones that look really beaten up. Dan warned me about the coatings on them; if you're not careful when you clean them, you can easily take them off, which I think reduces the fabric's water resistance. Given their cost, no one who isn't serious about getting out into the wilderness, so McHale packs tend to get used... so they look dirty and well-used, even though under the patina of grit they're as good as new. :)

Rakesh (or anyone else), do you have any pictures of yours flaking in spots?

"generally won't steal the ones that look really beaten up"

I wish that were true! Long story.

"I wish that were true! Long story."

Well, I did say "generally" :(

Mine isn't showing any flaking, so I don't have any pictures of that. Mine also doesn't have any coloring though, which may have something to do with it.

Just to be clear though, it's the dye that Dan said flakes off sometimes, not the fabric's coating or anything like that. Whether or not he's solved the issue of the dye coming off I don't know. I think my pack looks fine without the color, so I'm a happy camper... when I get to go camping.

"Nick, is this hybrid cuben stronger than the spectra?

FWIW, HMG had some blue packs for sale recently so this hybrid cuben can definitely be dyed."

I don't think any fabric is stronger than Spectra/Dyneema. Its used for bullet proof vests and Ursacks :)

I think the Cuben Dan uses has Spectra in it. Also the lamination make it more abrasion proof. Apparently Dan also has some Cuben with a type of outer lamination that allows him to dye it. Dan has many kinds of Cuben in stock, so no blanket statements.

Regarding the dye... Dan is not soaking materials in dye, he is applying a colored coating on the Spectra. Not sure what is process is for Cuben, but I would guess it might be the same. None of the "dye" has come off my LBP. But I suppose that dragging it across granite could scrape it off. My encounters with rocks, brush, and trees has not phased the pack or the color coat.

Below is a new hybrid cuben Merkebeiner now up on the McHale site. "The fabric of the pack is dyed Cuben Hybrid CT9 with a lighter Cuben for the rear pocket (... stripped of pockets form it is 2 lbs., 1.8 oz. - that's still with its 1/2" padded foam back, twin stay 7075-T6 frame...)."

Edited by thomdarrah on 04/01/2012 10:24:27 MDT.

The blue HMG packs seen recently are not cuben, they are VX21. I bought one from the swap a couple months ago.

New from the McHale site;

"Here's a Cuben pack with Full Spectra Kangaroo and bottom that's headed for the PCT. It is CT22 Hybrid Cuben which is about the same weight as 210 Dyneema X grid."

Edited by thomdarrah on 04/01/2012 11:27:46 MDT.

Anyone understand the different variants of hybrid cuben out there? I'd love to know the situation with different weights of polyester and cuben linings.

From this thread and the McHale site, we see references to CT9, CT13 and CT22 hybrid cuben fabrics, and references to weights of 3.4, 3.6oz & 4.2oz per yard. We are told CT22 weighs about the same as 210D Dyneema grid, and McHale's site says CT13 is 3.6oz stuff. Perhaps CT9 is likely the 3.4oz stuff and CT22 is 4.2oz/yd unless Dan's using more than 3 variants. Maybe the last number refer to denier? (90D, 130D, 220D?).

HMG doesn't give very much info on their site, but the word on BPL is that it's 3.3oz. Zpacks uses stuff they claim is 2.92oz/yd (99g/m2) and uses 50D polyester. ULA has hybrid cuben that spec'd slightly heavier (102g/m2), which works out to 3.0oz/yd2. From ULA, this 3.0oz stuff has the code CT5K.18/wov32.c. The first half of that is easily understood but 'wov32' is a mystery because 32 seems too low to be denier.

I got a sample of the stuff from ULA and there's no perceivable difference in the polyester between that and HMG's stuff.

It's all magic.

Or Greek.

Hey Dan,
I corresponded with Cubic and got some samples a while back. Some sample specs:
CT9K.18/wov.32
• Average Weight: 124 g/m^2 (3.7 oz/yd^2)
• Average Tensile Strength (ASTM D3039, Bollard Grips): 305 lbs/in
• Average Tear Strength (Mil-C-21189 10.2.4, Slit Tear - First Peak): 56 lbs
• Average Puncture Strength Probe B (ASTM F1342 - First Peak): 7.8 lbs

CT9K.18/wov.75
• Estimated Weight: 176 g/m^2 (5.2 oz/yd^2)
• Estimated Tensile Strength (ASTM D3039, Bollard Grips): 305 lbs/in

CT10SHBK.18/wov.75
• Average Weight: 201 g/m^2 (5.9 oz/yd^2)
• Average Tensile Strength (ASTM D3039, Bollard Grips): 333 lbs/in
• Average Tear Strength (Mil-C-21189 10.2.4, Slit Tear - First Peak): 141 lbs
• Average Puncture Strength Probe B (ASTM F1342 - First Peak): 12.6 lbs


So, there's basically any of the "regular" cubens laminated to one of two (probably more) weights of face fabric. Based on these specs and specs of non laminated cuben, the stuff HMG is using must be CT5K.18/wov.32 (from the above, you can deduct that adding the wov.32 to CT9K.18 adds 65.3 gsm; if you add that to CT5K.18 you end up with about 111 gsm which is 1 g off from the HMG spec). McHale mentions using a high bias cuben in the versions he's using. The wov.75 versions are quite a bit more abrasion resistant and have much less needle hole elongation under stress. It's really great fabric. After playing with it a bit I kinda think HMG is crazy for not using the wov.75. I don't know what the CT9, CT13, etc mean.

Excellent Brendan. I appreciate you sharing that info. That wov.75 stuff does sounds great for higher abrasion applications. Your theory on ULA & HMG using CT5K.18/wov.32 makes sense.

[Edited to remove wrong info in light of Brendan's follow up]

Edited by dandydan on 02/23/2013 19:57:25 MST.

You will never know what Dan is using. Fort Knox!

Edited by FamilyGuy on 06/17/2013 10:06:16 MDT.

I think that the Zpacks is a lighter face than the wov.32. From their site:
"This material is made from the same 1.43 oz/sqyd Cuben Fiber as seen above on the inside, with a protective layer of 50 Denier Polyester on the outside. "

So, it's gotta still be CT5K.18. I think McHale is using the HBK variants.

Good points about Zpacks using CT5K.18. That stuff weighs 48.4g/m2 and the hybrid weighs 99g/m2, so the wov layer must weigh 51g. It's gotta be wov.20-ish.

I've always thought HMG's polyester (wov.32) looks to be about 70D and that makes sense if Zpacks is using an 50D weighing 3/4 as much.

It seems like McHale's CT9, CT13 and CT22 simply refer to the first part of Cubic Tech's model codes that tell the amount of spectra present. You'll notice on Cubic Tech's product sheets that the increments they do of spectra are

CT2.5K, CT5K, CT9K, CT13K, CT18K, CT22K

9, 13 and 22 all happen to be available quantities of spectra, so CT9 likely refers to CT9K worth of spectra etc. I suspect he's not using high-bias because as far as I can tell, all of his talk about high-bias was from before he started playing with hybrid cuben. I think he felt that the regular versions of cuben didn't hold up well enough, so he played around with high bias for a while before moving on to hybrid cuben. High bias is neat, but it does nothing to solve abrasion resistance, which is regular cuben's achilles heal, so opting for thicker mylar or heavier polyester is a better use of weight.

I presume he's using wov.32, because wov.75 is too heavy to fit with his stated numbers and I doubt he'd go lighter than 32. If McHale's CT9 does refer to CT9K, and he's using wov.32, then he must be using the 0.08 mylar if his numbers are correct. CT13K.08/wov.32 would be 3.71oz, whereas CT13K.18/wov.32 would be 3.9oz - kinda far off from Dan's statement that his CT13 weighs 3.6oz.

So the Rosetta stone might be:
CT9 = CT9K.08/wov.32
CT13 = CT13K.08/wov.32
CT22 = CT22K.08/wov.32

Some quick calculations reveal these theoretical fabrics to weigh 3.44, 3.71 and 4.18oz/yd2, which matches rather well with Dan's numbers of 3.4, 3.6 and 4.2oz. I am a bit surprised that 0.08 mylar is what makes sense with the calculations though. There's always a possibility that Dan's weights are off and he's using .18 mylar like everyone else, but it seems like he's opted for more spectra but less mylar. If he was using .18 mylar then these fabrics would weigh 3.65, 3.9 and 4.4oz/yd - plausible but a less clear match.

Edited by dandydan on 02/23/2013 22:47:15 MST.

I love this site

"McHALE DYED FOR MY PACK"

Printed on self-adhesive Cuben, of course.