Im sure Patagonia doesn't want another lawsuit. Today we have Patagonia and Black Diamond rather than Chouinard Equipment because of a lawsuit.

David:

Can you elaborate on the above?

The fast version of the story...

Yvon Chouinard started the equipment company that is now patagonia and black diamond in the 60's. They made pitons of hard iron for climbers that could be used on the long granite routes of yosemite. Their equipment so much better suited to american climbing that, even though it cost far far more than the european imports, they couldnt produce it fast enough. In the 70's they began importing and selling clothing for climbers. In the 80's the equipment half of the company, which was fortunately already incorporated as a separate entity , was hit with several law suits. The equipment side of the company was basicly bankrupted; the employees bought it and started Black Diamond. The clothing side was reborn as Patagonia.

Now I understand. It must be difficult for a small new company to compete in climbing gear due to these liability concerns.

With the knowledge from these posts I believe now that Patagonia is not arrogant, just cautious, and I would certainly buy products of theirs which are competively priced.

In addition to finding their products at substantial reductions at other gear sites, Patagonia's website has a "web specials" page that's updated pretty often. Great discounts can be found there, although some of items go pretty quickly. A short time ago, when I responded to a pop-up survey for customer satisfaction at Patagonia's website, they were the beneficiaries of my gripes about how their "web specials" too often end up with only one or two sizes left (usually XS and S). One recent item w/good price reduction was a Specter (sp?) anorak, but wrong size.

Don't know how (or to whom) you presented your desire for a zip puff with Patagonia, but I'd like to believe that a little further inquiry would get a satisfactory response. It seems that they frequently modify their products, and so evidently have an on-going interest in new ideas.

JRS

PS - If you have an interest in obtaining a very highly praised steelhead fishing jacket, Patagonia's SST jacket can currently be had for a pretty good discount at some websites ($229 vs $315, men's & women's versions),perhaps also at Patagonia's "specials" page.

"I inspected the Houdini full-zip for........ If I can find one on sale it is replacing my Ion garbage-bag-with-arms."

Brett. It is on sale in the store where i used to work. It's 95 EUR, but i'm not sure if thats a bargain for you. If so i'd be willing to send you one.

I don't have money for it myself.

PM me if you want,

Eins

Brett: The Buck mini-tool has both scissors & pliers(Now discontinued, I think - but can find on ebay) works great and is lighter than a Leatherman Micra or Squirt.

To be fair, each implement on the Buck is of lighter construction (less durable?) than my Leatherman tools. But hey, for most trail uses the Buck works great at <2 oz!

Todd

Brett, there have been a number of reviews of the Houdini recently. I'm about to add mine and it will be a glowing review as well. I will have had it for a year in March. I wear it everywhere including downhill skiing. It's held up really well. For me, it has the perfect balance between breathability and water resistance. I bought mine at REI at a 20% discount. The 20% off coupon comes twice a year as I recall.

Thanks for the history, David. Learn something new everyday. :)

You guys are knuckleheads...companies like Patagonia, TNF, Monbell, whomever you choose...would to hear feedback and new ideas from users, BUT, they have the knowledge and experience not to because they can get sued if someone has a similiar idea to a finished product they have made. I've heard it happen many times especially when you look to the huge companies like Nike or adidas. Think about unfortunate legals like this before you accuse companies of being arrogant or too big to appreciate what you do.
CB

Charlie Bean:

At least read some of the responses (like the very first one) before you snicker at fellow hikers for being "knuckleheads".

Brett,

If XL Houdini fits, and the color available is OK (some kind of light green), 30% off at Sierra Trading --

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/0,43926_.html

JRS

.. I tried it on today and will be returning my Ion and getting a full zip Houdini.

.. I trust your judgement and that of the other reviews I read here. And I was steamed (figuratively and literally) about my Marmot (or should I say MarNOT) Ion.

I just snapped (like the 'knuclehead' I am) and bought the Patagonia Houdini in blue. I'll have to return a couple unwanted items at Return Every Item (REI) to pay for this!
Ill post my review as soon as I can.. it takes about 15 days to get stuff forwarded to me here overseas.

Charlie, please don't take all these posts literally. I suppose I threw 'chum in the water', to get all the great replies we saw from others who contributed ideas to companies large and small. Companies do not have emotions such as arrogance of course; but they do have a corporate image. The more I learn about Patagonia the more I like them.

PS, the Houdini full zip is the equivalent of $195 here in Japan, so of course I bought it online at lower cost.

Edited by Brett1234 on 02/03/2007 09:49:09 MST.

Wow, someone trusts my judgement! I'll have to have you talk to my wife. I lost all claim to good judgment when I mentioned Nano Rain Chaps to her. "Let me get this straight, they're like pants but they leave your a** hanging out, that's rich". I'm joking, of course, until I mentioned the price and then it got REALLY serious :).

Seriously, I know you will love the Houdini. You clearly have good judgement for avoiding that $195 price! Ouch!

Brett:

Shock us! How much does a Houdini cost in Japan? Oh, and can you post a pic please? Thanks.

Edited by ben2world on 02/03/2007 12:39:01 MST.

"PS, the Houdini full zip is the equivalent of $195 here in Japan, so of course I bought it online at lower cost."

Patagonia have end of season sales in their Jimbocho store and also have a clearance store in Sapporo if you're up that way skiing.

I saw Houdini's at the Jimbocho sale for about Y6,000 - unfortunately I'd just bought one for Y9,000 ... Still, even that was far less than retail.

But Y23,100 is very, very steep. You wonder how they can justify the price difference?

I see. Thanks, Damian.