Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION
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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 08:26:34 MST Print View

Alien abduction responsible? Interesting...

I wonder if anyone has ever boiled over a pot with the boiling water going onto any canister stove?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 10:39:19 MST Print View

"I wonder if anyone has ever boiled over a pot with the boiling water going onto any canister stove?"

Most of us probably have. But what Jim is talking about is the degradation of the fins, which then forces the heat down to the canister, something one would not see. This is akin to using a windscreen wrapped closely around an upright canister, which we know is a disaster waiting to happen.

Is this a design error or user error? We don't know yet. But I think caution is in order, and with any stove it behooves the owner to read and follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly.

Don't hold your breath on a quick answer from Jet Boil. If it is a design failure, their attorneys are looking at it, and we will see a recall. They are not going to make any comment without legal counsel.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 10:58:05 MST Print View

But maybe the failure started with boil-over, hot water on canister, sudden large increase of flow of butane, large flame, damage to fins/pot

So it's not that the fins are deficient

So have you had a major boil over with canister stove?

chris kersten
(xanadu) - F

Locale: here
caution on 02/29/2012 11:20:11 MST Print View

As a jetboil owner and user, I get to comment on this whole mess.
1. If you use it for other than boiling water, you made your own mess. I'm pretty sure that's what "jetboil" refers to.
2. Don't blame a good product made by a good company for your own stupidity. Kind of like taking Ford to court because you drove one off into the lake and it didn't float.
3. If you don't own a jetboil, you kind of don't really have much right to try to post negative things about a great product. What are you hoping to gain? Just RTFM and you'll be allright.
Oh, doody! My pot of mac and cheese just boiled over why I was typing this! Does General Electric have a website? I have to go warn people about the dangers of using a stove in your kitchen while surfing the internet. Have fun.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: caution on 02/29/2012 11:50:37 MST Print View

I have had boil over on GE stove at home cooking pasta. No big deal because no canister underneath.

I have never had a boil over on canister stove because I just boil water, which doesn't boil over even when I forget about it and suddenly notice it's violently boiling.

Then I'll sometimes put in soup or oatmeal, which might boil over, but at that point I stir it a couple times and then turn it off.

If I was cooking pasta on my canister stove and forgot about it, I might have a problem. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?

Ultra Magnus
(Ultra_Magnus) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/29/2012 11:58:20 MST Print View

"As to 'claymore mines' - well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to 'pop off'. As it can't actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size - a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course."

Though I've never blown up a fuel canister, I've blown up several aerosol cans and depending on how they are heating, they all failed in one of three possible ways. 1) heating the side directly with an oxy-acetyline torch- this caused the side to get red hot, bulge, and fail at that location. Bang- fireball etc... 2) heated evenly like in fire or oven failed in one of two ways- the first one is just a seam failing and springing a leak which results in the can spinning around jetting out flames from the seam until it ran out of pressure, and the last was as you described. The bottom blowing off with a loud bang, sending it sailing for about 10 ro 20'. I had the can laying on a incline, bottom up, and the bottom isn't very aerodynamic so it doesn't go very far.

Like I said, I did a lot of really stupid things in my older teen age years (my poor parents) and early adulthood. My saving grace, I think, is having enough common sense to take at least some precautionary measures, as well as having some amount of luck.

BM

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 16:33:10 MST Print View

Jerry Adams wrote: > But maybe the failure started with boil-over, hot water on canister, sudden large increase of flow of butane, large flame, damage to fins/pot
Jerry,

That may very well have happened, but we don't really know, and no further information is forthcoming about the originating incident. I've revised my caution to soften a bit. I'll probably further revise it, softening it even further since the large flame incident appears to be isolated and the circumstances less clear than I first perceived.

However, I think caution is still advised. The most common report I've seen is someone heating things other than water in their JB Sol Ti and having the fins melt. To me, that's user error not design defect, but still I think it's important to bear in mind that mistakes on a JB Ti Sol may cost you your HE fins. The possibility of a runaway thermal feedback loop remains, but it's unclear how likely that might be or whether some other precipitating event might first have to occur (i.e. a boil over).

Thank you to you and David Ure in particular for keeping me honest.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 18:10:25 MST Print View

I'm just not seeing the theoretical molten aluminum causing a positive feedback by heating the canister. Small mass, low heat capacity, much of it spatters off, etc.

Here are some sequences I can imagine:

For some reason, the flame is too high (tipped over and fed liquid fuel through the control valve, an over-filled canister got warm and fed liquid fuel through the control valve, a defective control valve allowed too much gaseous fuel out, the valve was left wide open due to cold canister which then warmed up, etc) and the high flame melted the aluminum flux ring. That is thin alumimun - surprisingly thin to me (and I've designed and fabricated more than a few heat exchangers in my professional work) - so in too high a flame, the flux ring may not be able to conduct enough heat to the pot to stay below its melting point.

Or, as suggested by others, if the weld partially fails at the Al/Ti junction, then the heat exchange will reduce GREATLY and those Al fins will approach flame temperature and melt off the pot.

As to a thermal-feedback loop (perhaps due to a wind screen being used?), that would certainly increase pressure in the canister. If velocities through the control valve aren't near sonic velocities*, then more pressure in the canister makes for more fuel flow, a bigger flame and more thermal feedback.

*If they are near sonic velocities, then only the cross-sectional area of the control valve opening matters, more back pressure wouldn't increase the mass flow of fuel. That would be a very safe way to design a maximum burn rate into such a device, but I didn't design this thing, I don't know how Jetboil addressed that issue, if they did at all.

I for one appreciate HJ bringing this issue to my attention - I'd rather know to be alert to such a possibility than be surprised by it on some dark and stormy night. Yeah, HJ gets a little excited about anything related to stoves - that is maybe to be expected in someone with his avocation. My theory is that, like a baby duckling, he imprinted on the first thing he ever saw, but his parents had just left the room and he spied an Optimus 8R nearby.

As for it being improper for anyone to criticize or to question Jetboil's design, I disagree. I had a co-worker who LOVED AMC Pacers. I'd grant him that (1) the things had great visibility in all directions, and (2) he'd never have to pay child support because he'd never "get lucky" while driving a Pacer. But his love of a particular design doesn't mean AMC engineered the thing perfectly and made each and every one of them 100% reliable. From from it.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 18:18:32 MST Print View

Hi Jim

> someone heating things other than water in their JB Sol Ti and having the fins melt. To
> me, that's user error not design defect,
I wonder how far that defence would go in court against an experienced tort lawyer?

What would the average off-the-street customer buy a stove for? Did the box the stove and pot came in have a large warning across the front which said 'This stove is not for cooking your dinner'?

Shakes head.

Cheers

Chris C
(cvcass) - MLife

Locale: State of Jefferson
I agree with Roger on 02/29/2012 21:37:10 MST Print View

To say its your fault because you cooked food in it would be a lame defense in a civil court, unfortunately consumer products need to be nearly bulletproof and have warning labels all over them.

There is too much speculation about whats going on in these cases of fin failure and the one fireball case. It's very easy to say it was "user error" on all events outside our own personal experience. It would be nice to hear what Jetboil has to say about this.

a b
(Ice-axe)
Hikin' Jim on 02/29/2012 22:01:38 MST Print View

"I for one appreciate HJ bringing this issue to my attention - I'd rather know to be alert to such a possibility than be surprised by it on some dark and stormy night. Yeah, HJ gets a little excited about anything related to stoves - that is maybe to be expected in someone with his avocation. My theory is that, like a baby duckling, he imprinted on the first thing he ever saw, but his parents had just left the room and he spied an Optimus 8R nearby." -David Thomas

@ David, you have no idea how true your statement is. Hikin' Jim IS the stove monsta!
Anyone willing to bring 60 stoves to a gathering of BPL folks and demonstrate each and every one of them is an awesome guy in my book!

Here is Hikin' Jim at a BPL Gathering doing what he loves.. explaining the characteristics and specifications of STOVES!
.
Hikin' Jim in his element
.Hikin' Jim and Stoves
.
Hikin' Jim is an enthusiastic and tireless teacher. He is the exaclty right person to bring this issue up and hopefully Jet Boil responds to his thread here on BPL. The dude loves stoves, from the Svea 123 to the Jet Boil in this thread and every thing in between.. even the lowly Cat Can Alky.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Hikin' Jim on 02/29/2012 22:50:44 MST Print View

Maybe we can get Jim to do some destructive testing/demos next year?!? Did you see that fireball on Sat. night?

a b
(Ice-axe)
Fire testing on 02/29/2012 22:56:55 MST Print View

I sure did see that fireball! I also saw Jack burn his eye-lashes off with his Tinfoil and tea candle oven.
Fire is so cool!
I once burned my eyelashes off like that. I had a mis-fire with my hair-spray powered PVC pipe Potato cannon. When I unscrewed the end I saw a small blue flame in the bottom of tha cannon a millisecond before it advanced up the tube and took the hair off my face!
Kinda looked like i had a bad sunburn for a few days and it itched a little.
Nothing quite like launching a Potato 200 yards with hairspray, plastic pipe, and a piezoelectric bar-b-que ignitor though.
It was hella worth losing a little hair.

Edited by Ice-axe on 02/29/2012 22:57:37 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Fire testing on 02/29/2012 23:31:23 MST Print View

Matthew: I always dodged fast enough when the Svea 123 flared up to save my eyebrows. And I've been powering the various snowball cannons with compressed air rather than VO5.

But the last time a layer of propane on the ground ignited (there's a sensation of the heat traveling up one's leg as the leg hairs ignite, followed by a really bad smell), I knew exactly what had happened, because it wasn't the first time.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Hikin' Jim on 03/01/2012 00:21:40 MST Print View

Maybe we can get Jim to do some destructive testing/demos next year?!?
Heh, heh, don't tempt me. You don't know how tempted I am to boil over a JetBoil Sol right now just to see if I can replicate what happened to the one that prompted the original post in this thread.

Next year being a ways a way, I present the following: Gas canisters go BOOM.

Did you see that fireball on Sat. night?
Well, do you want your white gas stove primed or don't you? ;)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 03/01/2012 00:44:36 MST Print View

David Thomas wrote: > Yeah, HJ gets a little excited about anything related to stoves - that is maybe to be expected in someone with his avocation. My theory is that, like a baby duckling, he imprinted on the first thing he ever saw, but his parents had just left the room and he spied an Optimus 8R nearby.
lol. As a matter of fact we did have an Optimus 8R when I was growing up.

Some people (my wife) think that it has happened to my daughter, now 2, shown here at a few months old with a Svea 123.


There aren't too many two year olds that can say "windscreen" and "alcohol" and "fuel pump" like my daughter, lol.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 03/01/2012 00:50:15 MST Print View

Some people should never be parents!! California Child Welfare has screwed up yet again! Where are the case workers when we need them??? :)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 03/01/2012 00:58:23 MST Print View

Well, Jim, you got your daughter to carry your stove and pot...now for the rest of your gear. She's 2? Sheesh, I'd think she should be carrying *at least* your bag, mat, shelter, and stove.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Let's see some fireball testing HJ on 03/01/2012 06:49:57 MST Print View

Hey HJ, lets see some extreme testing, boil overs, debris path of an exploding canister, which canister has the furthest path etc. :) If you make a fatal error, no one here will know and your good name will remain intact. :)
Duane

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Let's see some fireball testing HJ on 03/01/2012 06:56:03 MST Print View

@ Iceaxe Replace potato with fuel soaked tennis ball for nighttime fun. Remember PVC shrapnel is no fun.

Real interested in how JB handles this.

Edited by kthompson on 03/01/2012 06:56:41 MST.