Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION
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Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 18:42:06 MST Print View

Phillip Colelli wrote: > I just checked out your blog. Seems that's what you want right? Do you even own a jetboil? I didn't see any reviews for one on your blog. I understand your concern about the jetboil but dude I feel like you're just trying to get publicity for your blog.
Phillip,

Of course I want people to read my blog (why else would I write it?). But, would I try to conjure something up just to generate traffic? No.

Here, I'll even quote from my blog, which will reduce traffic not increase it:
Note: I own several JetBoil products. I am super happy with every JetBoil product I own. I have used JetBoil stoves at altitudes above 11,000 ft/3300m without problems (well, except for the piezoelectric ignition, but that's a known and pretty minor issue). Many people have used the titanium version of the JetBoil Sol without problems and are completely satisfied with the product. I think JetBoil is a good company with a good product.

You are correct though that even though I own several JetBoil products I have not specifically reviewed them. I do not have a JetBoil Sol Ti but I do have two JetBoil Sols (the aluminum version in other words) in my JB collection.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 02/28/2012 18:43:35 MST.

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 18:47:26 MST Print View

That video you posted on your site seems to be caused by a poor weld/soldering job and has little to do with the issue of exploding canisters. The air temp was 10degrees (I'm assuming F, not C???). If so then the aluminum would cool rapidly and shrink in size. If the fin attachments to the pot were weak then they could crack and cause the failure seen in the video. There was no melting of fins from what I could see.

As for damage to the titanium pot itself, most of the picture looks like solder residue and some titanium oxidation. Titanium oxidizes at room temperature (albeit slowly). Even if the pot warped, there is little evidence to suggest that the pot "melted" as implied.

This looks like an isolated incidence caused by inattention with confirmation bias from unrelated failures to create a media frenzy built upon fear mongering. I'm not saying that was your conscious intent HJ, but some due diligence before "reporting" this issue should have been taken. An orgy of information often obscures the truth more that illuminating it.

I want to make a statement along the lines of why blogs are a mediocre source of information, but most media has become susceptible to knee-jerk reporting of any issue instead of actual journalism.

Phillip Colelli
(pdcolelli42)

Locale: AT, follow@ www.thruperspective.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 19:08:19 MST Print View

I'm just sayin dude, BPL doesn't even have ads the last thing I want to see in every single one of your posts is an ad for your blog. You have ads all over your blog, you're obviously trying to make money. I have a blog too, one I actually host myself on a website I pay for, and you don't see me or anyone else with blogs around here trying to link to the darn thing in every single post. Seriously dude lay off if your blog has good content people will discover it on their own.

There's a specific forum to let people know about your blog. Use it.

Edited by pdcolelli42 on 02/28/2012 19:09:59 MST.

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 19:09:47 MST Print View

After reading a bit from the other thread, the owner was boiling beef bullion, which is not plain water (A LOT of electrolytes). The instructions clearly state that damage to fins can occur if low heat and constant stirring does not occur. The owner said he was hanging his platypus. This salty liquid most likely boiled over and had a corrosive reaction with the heated aluminum fins.

Jetboil warns against this carelessness. There seems to be no issue other than negligence on the operator's part.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 19:51:19 MST Print View

Dustin Short wrote: > That video you posted on your site seems to be caused by a poor weld/soldering job and has little to do with the issue of exploding canisters. The air temp was 10degrees (I'm assuming F, not C???). If so then the aluminum would cool rapidly and shrink in size. If the fin attachments to the pot were weak then they could crack and cause the failure seen in the video. There was no melting of fins from what I could see.
Hi, Dustin,

Well, actually I think it is related. Here's what I think is happening:
In order to conduct heat, they attach an aluminum heat exchanger to the bottom of the titanium pot. Hmm. Two different metals. Two different rates of expansion. Every time the pot is heated, the two different metals will be "pulling" at one another.

Now say a weld fails or somehow pulls apart. The aluminum heat exchanger, the one that's absorbing all that heat, is now separated from the pot. Where does all that heat go? Nowhere. In other words, all that heat has got nowhere to go and that thin aluminum heat exchanger is going to get hot, really hot.

So you've got this very hot metal underneath the pot and surrounded by the bracket that connects the burner to the pot. That's a lot of heat confined to a fairly small space. Some of that heat is radiated back to the canister. As the canister heats, the pressure inside the canister increases, as the pressure increases, the flame increases. As the flame increases, the temperature under the pot increases, and yet more heat is funneled back to the canister of gas. What you've got (I think; admittedly this is somewhat speculative) is a runaway feedback loop. One would hope that the regulator valve would compensate some for the pressure increase, but judging by what has happened, the pressure becomes so great that the regulator valve does not impede the pressure and the runaway feedback loop continues. Things get really hot. Hot enough apparently to melt aluminum.

So, I suspect the underlying issue in both is in fact related. Given the severity of what happened to the one stove (three foot flames), I think saying something is worthwhile.

The thing that nags at me is David Ure's question about how many time something along these lines has happened. I've got five cases that I've seen. That's actually not all that many.

Perhaps I am guilty of "knee-jerk reporting" (sigh). I'm going to re-word things, but I think it's still worth keeping an eye on. My own personal opinion of what I will do for me remains unchanged: I'm going to wait and see on the Sol Ti. If there's a pattern of problems with the welds in the Sol Ti, then we'll know soon enough.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 19:57:14 MST Print View

For what it's worth, I've reworded the original post that started this thread. I will also reword my blog post.

This verbiage was in my original post. I think it's appropriate, and I left it unchanged:

Please note that not all the facts are in and that this is a CAUTION only at this juncture. The potential consequences of a failure are serious enough that I think a “caution” is warranted even though all the facts are not in.


HJ
Adventures In Stoving

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION" on 02/28/2012 20:00:15 MST Print View

I emailed a link to the other thread to Jetboil customer service.

Didn't hear anything back....

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 20:04:23 MST Print View

OK...so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?

M

Phillip Colelli
(pdcolelli42)

Locale: AT, follow@ www.thruperspective.com
Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 20:16:33 MST Print View

Yeah it's possible that the welds holding the aluminum the the ti are failing. It is after all difficult to weld the two materials. We're not totally sure if that's the problem though.

Jack Hoster
(OrlandoHanger) - F
BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE on 02/28/2012 20:38:23 MST Print View

"BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE"

This is just crazy. A claymore is a directional explosive meant to direct it forces and projectiles in a forward fan pattern at communists intent on entering your perimeter or walking down a trail. They are also good for home defense against the neighbor's cat.

A Jetboil canister exploding would have an entirely different pattern. An explosion would certainly be hazardous to a tent if this occurred in one, as well as to the neighbor's cat if it was in the same tent.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE on 02/28/2012 20:48:22 MST Print View

Warning! Caution! Getting scratched by your neighbors cat could result in infection and ultimately DEATH!

Just thought it prudent to send out a warning.


only teasing!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 20:48:41 MST Print View

Hi Jim

> So you've got this very hot metal underneath the pot and surrounded by the bracket that
> connects the burner to the pot. That's a lot of heat confined to a fairly small space.
> Some of that heat is radiated back to the canister. As the canister heats,
I'll buy that one. Maybe the molten aluminium is a big factor, maybe it's only a small factor. But something(s) are pumping heat into the canister at a dangerous level.

As to 'claymore mines' - well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to 'pop off'. As it can't actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size - a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course.

Cheers

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE on 02/28/2012 20:49:32 MST Print View

Swords can't explode. Duuuuuhhhh!

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 21:32:27 MST Print View

Matthew Perry wrote: > OK...so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?
Yes. Affixing aluminum to aluminum is a fairly common process. Also, the aluminum pot will conduct heat away from the heat exchanger fairly well whereas the Ti pot has trouble doing that.

I don't see anything that would indicate that the all aluminum versions of the JetBoil would have a problem. None of mine, PCS, GCS, or aluminum Sol ever have. I've never met or heard of anyone having a problem with the all aluminum versions.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE on 02/28/2012 21:37:25 MST Print View

"BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE"

This is just crazy. A claymore is a directional explosive meant to direct it forces and projectiles in a forward fan pattern at communists intent on entering your perimeter or walking down a trail. They are also good for home defense against the neighbor's cat.

A Jetboil canister exploding would have an entirely different pattern. An explosion would certainly be hazardous to a tent if this occurred in one, as well as to the neighbor's cat if it was in the same tent.
Much appreciated, Jack. I needed a good laugh. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 21:41:03 MST Print View

Roger Caffin wrote: > Hi Jim

> So you've got this very hot metal underneath the pot and surrounded by the bracket that
> connects the burner to the pot. That's a lot of heat confined to a fairly small space.
> Some of that heat is radiated back to the canister. As the canister heats...
I'll buy that one. Maybe the molten aluminium is a big factor, maybe it's only a small factor. But something(s) are pumping heat into the canister at a dangerous level.
[emphasis added]
My thoughts exactly.

Roger Caffin wrote: > As to 'claymore mines' - well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to 'pop off'. As it can't actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size - a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course.
Thank you, Roger.

I remembered your experiment and had it in the back of my mind as I made some of my remarks, but it's good to be reminded of the specifics of the case.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 02/28/2012 21:43:45 MST.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/28/2012 23:37:51 MST Print View

" Matthew Perry wrote: > OK...so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?

Yes. Affixing aluminum to aluminum is a fairly common process. Also, the aluminum pot will conduct heat away from the heat exchanger fairly well whereas the Ti pot has trouble doing that.

I don't see anything that would indicate that the all aluminum versions of the JetBoil would have a problem. None of mine, PCS, GCS, or aluminum Sol ever have. I've never met or heard of anyone having a problem with the all aluminum versions."


OK, Jim...then the simple fix would be to make the Sol Titanium with titanium heat exchanger fins, not aluminum...correct? Or is the titanium material itself the issue?

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 02/28/2012 23:38:49 MST.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Titanium JetBoil Sol -- CAUTION on 02/29/2012 00:03:24 MST Print View

Yes, but "titanium" and "heat exchanger" are a bit of an oxymoron. Titanium is a very poor conductor of heat. If you're trying to pick up heat and conduct it to the contents of a pot, titanium is (almost) the last material that you'd want to use. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, aluminum is a superb conductor and absorber of heat, surpassed only by copper, gold and silver -- and copper, gold, and silver are heavier and a little on the pricey side whereas aluminum is light and cheap.

So, you marry the aluminum to the titanium and voila you have a heat exchanger on a titanium pot. The only problem is if the two don't get along. As noted, there have been some reports of problems with the heat exchanger separating from the pot. In one case the result was quite fiery. Mating Al to Ti is no simple process based on the discussions I've had with people who are familiar with the subject.

How common are these separation problems? Dunno.

Will these problems become more common as the Sol Ti stoves age? Possibly, but I can't really say.

Honestly, I like the idea of an 8.5 ounce (out of the box) Ti stove/pot heat exchanger combo, and I hope these are just quality control failures. The thing that nags at the back of my mind though is the difficulty of marrying Ti and Al.

Ultimately, I suppose time will tell. The more they sell and the mroe "miles" that get put on those stoves, the better idea we'll have of how common failures are and if there really is a problem.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Nigel Healy
(nigelhealy) - F

Locale: San Francisco bay area
so we just keep an eye on the Alu-Ti weld? on 02/29/2012 05:33:05 MST Print View

So I just look at the weld periodically and ensure its neatly mating with the pot? If it is coming off then report under warranty?

Brian Green
(bfgreen) - F

Locale: Charlotte, NC
Engage Jetboil - looks like a QC issue on 02/29/2012 05:52:23 MST Print View

It's great that we can discuss these things in the minutest of details and analyze them until we've exhausted every possibility including alien abduction. Look, this seems to be a QC issue with the Flux ring at worst. Consider how many of these Ti models that have *not* had this issue and that may put it into perspective. To recap then, if I may...

- This seems to be a QC issue - so engage JetBoil directly and properly to get their feedback
- Has nothing to do with exploding canisters
- The blog title was overly sensational as nothing exploded
- No furry animals were hurt during the making of the video :-)

Is it just me or are these discussions getting totally out of hand lately? I mean come on. The best part of this 2-page thread (as of writing this) is the occasional shameless plug by BPL between the threads to let you purchase JetBoil stoves. If this were a serious bad issue with exploding stoves (which it isn't remember) then the advertisements would be even more hilarious.

I think we should all move on until we have heard back from JetBoil regarding the issue and the extend of this occurring.